Chase Masterson speaks candidly about DS9 and Catsuits
- Thread starter TiberiusK
- Start date
If you don't think that catsuit was intended specifically to appeal to the 18 - 25 male demographic's baser instincts (ie, their thirst for T&A), then yeah...I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
And that catsuit was written into each and every episode...in a variety of colors; different ones being introduced over time....but quite notably, with very little difference in STYLE between them - especially in the prominent featuring of her boobs.
The catsuit was written in again and again and again and again. For 4 years. In every episode but one, to my memory.
To me, it was very obvious that B&B were going for the cheap ratings. Rather than concentrating on writing good STORIES for Voyager, which would require actual WORK, they opted for the easy way out: to try and bring in the Nerdboi contingent by getting them to think with their OTHER heads.
And IMO, this is insulting to the audience. Because it implies that we fans are too stupid to tell the difference between a good story and a nice set of tits.
I am a VOY fan. And I happen to think Jeri Ryan was and is a talented actress. But I think B&B treated the audience in a manner that was insulting to our intelligence. They started this with Seven's costumes...and by the time they got to T'Pol's decon scenes, even the most unobservant Trek fan had finally gotten it. They actually thought they could distract us from the realization that they were running out of ideas for Trek by sticking a pair of boobs in front of us...and expecting us to think that was great Trek.
And if you think VOY was fabulous from beginning to end, please describe for me the leaps-and-bounds character development of such characters as Chakotay, Tuvok, and Harry Kim during the last three years of VOY.
Please list for me all the ways those characters were developed during those three years - what did they each learn? How did they grow? What strides did they make as officers? As human beings?
Me? I saw ZIP. And it WASN'T Robert Beltran's fault. It wasn't Tim Russ's fault. And it wasn't Garrett Wang's fault.
What about Neelix? Same thing, IMO. Hardly grew at all....and it WASN'T due to substandard acting.
For that matter, writing out Jennifer Lien wasn't even HER fault.
All of these characters stopped growing NOT due to the actors limitations...but to the WRITERS limitations.
They shouldn't have written out Jennifer Lien. They SHOULD have written out Brannon Braga.
But instead of writing an interesting storyline for the character they HAD...they wrote her out and substituted boobs.
They could just as easily have written an interesting storyline for Kes. Shoot, even *I* could have written a more interesting storyline for Kes.
They didn't even TRY though. Instead, they got rid of a perfectly good character...and went for the easy ratings.
JM1776 said:
Perhaps the heart of the dispute between you, ladies, is that KitchenWitch is using a more exacting defintion of "written," whereas PKTrekGirl is implying that the costuming itself is a part of 'writing' the character, in a broader sense?
Or not.
Not 'or not'.
You hit the nail on the head exactly.
The issue is how *Seven* was written. Not Chakotay, not Kim, not Tuvok, not Kes.
And I think that despite your supposed respect for Ryan, you make it quite clear above what you saw in her--boobs.
Again, I found Seven a nuanced character--tough and vulnerable at the same time, trying to navigate unfamiliar surroundings and social structures. There was an irony in her costume in that while she looked the way she did, it was all irrelevant to her. (And in her holodeck fantasy in Human Error, she makes it clear that she didn't even consider herself worthy of a uniform until all Borg implants were removed, so I think it's clear she considers herself damaged goods). Ryan's got an expressive face and eyes and she uses them well. If you bother to look at her face.
I saw a lot of good stories on Voyager--some involving Seven, some not. It's not DS9, but it wasn't supposed to be--there is a difference between episodic drama and serial drama in how stories are developed.
I agree. The people objecting most strongly to the Seven suits are the ones who are fixating on "attributes" and losing sight of substance, the most. I kept waiting for them to do something with the character of Kes. It's hard for me to imagine anyone really feeling that they explored her much, despite the potential.
Seven was explored heavily, and as well as that team knew how to, I think. The stories did not go downhill. And if you don't fixate on anatomy, that should be clear. I'll add to K Witch's remarks by saying that the implication of nakedness in the costume is part of what gets across the sense of vulnerability... I know there's more to it than that, but I'm not up for essay-writing tomight. Anyway, the image has a purpose and works, if one's personal alarm-bells don't go off the moment a costume like that appears onscreen.
Seven was explored heavily, and as well as that team knew how to, I think. The stories did not go downhill. And if you don't fixate on anatomy, that should be clear. I'll add to K Witch's remarks by saying that the implication of nakedness in the costume is part of what gets across the sense of vulnerability... I know there's more to it than that, but I'm not up for essay-writing tomight. Anyway, the image has a purpose and works, if one's personal alarm-bells don't go off the moment a costume like that appears onscreen.
^ Never said it was supposed to be DS9. Not sure where you got the impression that I think every show should be DS9. But I don't.
But me? I didn't see Seven as being anything new. What *I* saw was them writing out Kes, a perfectly good VOY-indigenous character who they never even TRIED to write decently for, and substituted the character of Data. Only with boobs and a 'tude.
I see very little difference between the character of Seven and the character of Data - except for those two things.
This character was not NEW - it was the same 'ole/same 'ole. 'The-character-in-search-of-the-essence-of-humanity'.
They took the popular character of Data...and bumped up the sex quotient for good measure.
Oh. And made her a Borg, because that had worked for them in the past also. Didn't matter that they weren't even IN the AQ. We will just work the DQ into 'Borg Homeland' and make it fit.
They couldn't even make the indigenous VOY 'bad guys' work - they had to borrow THOSE from TNG as well.
And when it *did* work to some extent, they turned the whole SHOW into the EMH/Seven of Nine Show....and neglected pretty much every other character in the series after that. Thus illustrating in spades their incredible arrogance and laziness to all of their loyal fans: "We can give you pretty much anything...and as long as we stamp 'Star Trek' on it, you idiots will watch".
And they stood by this attitude toward the fans - that we were too stupid to figure it out - until they were threatened with cancellation at the end of season 3 of ENT.
"We are all very pleased". Rick Berman's mantra...even as ENT was sinking into the murky depths.
About WHAT, pray tell?
But me? I didn't see Seven as being anything new. What *I* saw was them writing out Kes, a perfectly good VOY-indigenous character who they never even TRIED to write decently for, and substituted the character of Data. Only with boobs and a 'tude.
I see very little difference between the character of Seven and the character of Data - except for those two things.
This character was not NEW - it was the same 'ole/same 'ole. 'The-character-in-search-of-the-essence-of-humanity'.
They took the popular character of Data...and bumped up the sex quotient for good measure.
Oh. And made her a Borg, because that had worked for them in the past also. Didn't matter that they weren't even IN the AQ. We will just work the DQ into 'Borg Homeland' and make it fit.
They couldn't even make the indigenous VOY 'bad guys' work - they had to borrow THOSE from TNG as well.
And when it *did* work to some extent, they turned the whole SHOW into the EMH/Seven of Nine Show....and neglected pretty much every other character in the series after that. Thus illustrating in spades their incredible arrogance and laziness to all of their loyal fans: "We can give you pretty much anything...and as long as we stamp 'Star Trek' on it, you idiots will watch".
And they stood by this attitude toward the fans - that we were too stupid to figure it out - until they were threatened with cancellation at the end of season 3 of ENT.
"We are all very pleased". Rick Berman's mantra...even as ENT was sinking into the murky depths.
About WHAT, pray tell?
Data was emotionless, and wanted emotion. He was almost child-like. Seven was curious about human experience, sometimes, and at other times, didn't care. She wasn't emotionless... arrogance is a big emotion. They claimed her emotion was stunted by some sort of Borg programming in season seven, but she was never robot-like.
You're always going to have characters who are at a distance from humanity, commenting on it from outside. That's not self-plagiarism; it's one of the things Trek has to contribute to the world... that kind of perspective. You can't abandon that after just one character. And why isn't Data a clone of Spock, if Seven's a clone of Data?
I kept hearing about difficulties concerning G Wang and J Lein, and it may have been more of a behind-the-scenes thing, with her firing.
The Borg may have been only two years away (?) in "Q Who" but that was ridiculous. You can't have the Borg be that close to the Federation unless you want them taking over the Alpha Quadrant. Putting them across the galaxy was the only solution. We knew they were supposed to be very far away, so far the Feds didn't have a hope of reaching them without Q.
I liked the EMH/Seven of Nine/Janeway show. Those were good characters. Work B'Lanna in fairly often, and there are your most interesting characters, all right there. No one can claim the Doctor was popular because of his boobs. They went with their strengths. And I'm no LCD audience member.
I thought Berman's mantra was "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." which he said during season two of Voyager, the worst Trek season I think, before Enterprise.
You're always going to have characters who are at a distance from humanity, commenting on it from outside. That's not self-plagiarism; it's one of the things Trek has to contribute to the world... that kind of perspective. You can't abandon that after just one character. And why isn't Data a clone of Spock, if Seven's a clone of Data?
I kept hearing about difficulties concerning G Wang and J Lein, and it may have been more of a behind-the-scenes thing, with her firing.
The Borg may have been only two years away (?) in "Q Who" but that was ridiculous. You can't have the Borg be that close to the Federation unless you want them taking over the Alpha Quadrant. Putting them across the galaxy was the only solution. We knew they were supposed to be very far away, so far the Feds didn't have a hope of reaching them without Q.
I liked the EMH/Seven of Nine/Janeway show. Those were good characters. Work B'Lanna in fairly often, and there are your most interesting characters, all right there. No one can claim the Doctor was popular because of his boobs. They went with their strengths. And I'm no LCD audience member.
I thought Berman's mantra was "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." which he said during season two of Voyager, the worst Trek season I think, before Enterprise.
^ Well, don't even get me started on the EMH. My least favorite character in all of Trek. 
Selfish, self-centered, irresponsible, and treasonous.
Nice guy. Great character.
I was a huge fan of Trek...until season 5 of VOY. During season 5...Trek started on it's downhill slide...and never recovered until season 4 of ENT, when Rick Berman FINALLY realized he needed help to save the show.
But of course, by the time he got past his own arrogance, it was too late. Manny Cotto couldn't save THAT sinking ship.
Selfish, self-centered, irresponsible, and treasonous.
Nice guy. Great character.
I was a huge fan of Trek...until season 5 of VOY. During season 5...Trek started on it's downhill slide...and never recovered until season 4 of ENT, when Rick Berman FINALLY realized he needed help to save the show.
But of course, by the time he got past his own arrogance, it was too late. Manny Cotto couldn't save THAT sinking ship.
Oh...and my 'supposed' respect for Jeri Ryan is very real.
I don't blame her for the writing on VOY post-season 5. An actor is only as good as the material they are given.
But this goes for Jeri Ryan - AND Jennifer Lien, Robert Beltran, Tim Russ, Garrett Wang, and everyone else.
I don't think ANY of them but Picardo were given a fair shake. Jeri got more than some of the others because of her relationship with Braga. But everyone else in the VOY cast got totally screwed, IMO. Up to and including Kate Mulgrew. Who got her role turned into little more than a nursemaid for a while there. And then was totally ruined by Endgame.
I LOVE Kate Mulgrew. I mean, I really love her - even more so personally than as an actress. And I think Kate...and by extension, Janeway got screwed. She should have been the central figure on this show for the entire run...but I certainly didn't feel that way during much of seasons 6 and 7.
I don't blame her for the writing on VOY post-season 5. An actor is only as good as the material they are given.
But this goes for Jeri Ryan - AND Jennifer Lien, Robert Beltran, Tim Russ, Garrett Wang, and everyone else.
I don't think ANY of them but Picardo were given a fair shake. Jeri got more than some of the others because of her relationship with Braga. But everyone else in the VOY cast got totally screwed, IMO. Up to and including Kate Mulgrew. Who got her role turned into little more than a nursemaid for a while there. And then was totally ruined by Endgame.
I LOVE Kate Mulgrew. I mean, I really love her - even more so personally than as an actress. And I think Kate...and by extension, Janeway got screwed. She should have been the central figure on this show for the entire run...but I certainly didn't feel that way during much of seasons 6 and 7.
The attempt to dismiss legitimate concerns as superficial will not succeed, despite your repeated efforts. As has already been stated, one can object to aspects of a character, without condemning him, her or it in toto.
And the implication that you're more discerning than those who disagree with your position is so laughable it doesn't even need to be further addressed.
Oh, please. You've now crossed over from the merely amusing into the sublimely absurd.
If you genuinely believe the primary, or even a significant, purpose of that costume was an attempt to portray her 'vulnerability,' you're probably beyond hope of reason. There was a 'vul--' they were looking to portray, all right, but it certainly wasn't the one you suggest.
Perhaps they should have included a dancing pole as equipment in the Astrometrics Lab, too, eh? Twirling on it, after all, could have represented her 'confusion,' in the same way her crotch riders so obviously symbolized "vulnerability."
"But of course, by the time he got past his own arrogance, it was too late. Manny Cotto couldn't save THAT sinking ship." We agree, except he never got past it. As I understand it, power was wrested from Bermanbraga's hands by Paramount. MC at least respected Trek. It's not his fault that he wasn't the right guy for the job... he was there and better him, than whatever Hollywood nobodies may have been around.
It seemed to me that Berman and Braga wanted that "auteur" and creator status they could never get on Star Trek despite all the work they put into it. Well, it's too late to become Gene Roddenberry; we already had one. They must have seen JM Strazynski writing whole seasons, getting adulation, feeling they deserved that too. So, they wrote the whole damn show (Enterprise) by themselves for awhile. Starving science-fiction authors out there, and they make Trek a vanity project....
Not sure if you're denouncing season 5 of Voyager, or saying it went downhill later. I see season five as the one solid watchable season from start to finish. Six and seven were pretty pointless though. 3-4-5 for me.
It seemed to me that Berman and Braga wanted that "auteur" and creator status they could never get on Star Trek despite all the work they put into it. Well, it's too late to become Gene Roddenberry; we already had one. They must have seen JM Strazynski writing whole seasons, getting adulation, feeling they deserved that too. So, they wrote the whole damn show (Enterprise) by themselves for awhile. Starving science-fiction authors out there, and they make Trek a vanity project....
Not sure if you're denouncing season 5 of Voyager, or saying it went downhill later. I see season five as the one solid watchable season from start to finish. Six and seven were pretty pointless though. 3-4-5 for me.
^ I see season 5 as a transition season. Some of it is good - some of it not-so-good.
Up to the beginning of season 5, I was a solid fan of VOY. Season 5 had some good episodes...but began to go downhill as alot of the character development of other characters (besides Seven and the EMH) stopped, or significantly slowed.
By the time season 5 ended, I was starting to worry.
By the time season 7 ended, I was angry. Because pretty much every one of the characters I loved on this show I had given 7 years of my life to had been destroyed.
And even your precious Seven got screwed in the end, by the placing of her into a completely out-of-the blue and ridiculous relationship with someone who only a few weeks before didn't trust her as far as he could throw her.
Up to the beginning of season 5, I was a solid fan of VOY. Season 5 had some good episodes...but began to go downhill as alot of the character development of other characters (besides Seven and the EMH) stopped, or significantly slowed.
By the time season 5 ended, I was starting to worry.
By the time season 7 ended, I was angry. Because pretty much every one of the characters I loved on this show I had given 7 years of my life to had been destroyed.
And even your precious Seven got screwed in the end, by the placing of her into a completely out-of-the blue and ridiculous relationship with someone who only a few weeks before didn't trust her as far as he could throw her.
TrekGirl... well, now you're just getting offensive and rude, so I'm bailing out of this. You make so many hasty and dead-wrong assumptions about what I think, that there's no point in beginning to address them. I thought you'd at least notice the areas we agreed on.
I'm not stupid. Expressing laughter at an idea isn't constructive. I never do that. It doesn't prove you right, it just makes you feel more right. I was offering my real and honest feelings and reactions to the character, to let you know there's another side to it. They weren't manufactured excuses because I'm in denial over drooling over boobs in tight outfits. I'm getting madder as I type this.
People who go on the most about the terrible "catsuits" seem to tend not to feel anyone can have an understandable differing view, and that open contempt is permissable. Not everyone obviously, but I notice it more and more.
I'm not stupid. Expressing laughter at an idea isn't constructive. I never do that. It doesn't prove you right, it just makes you feel more right. I was offering my real and honest feelings and reactions to the character, to let you know there's another side to it. They weren't manufactured excuses because I'm in denial over drooling over boobs in tight outfits. I'm getting madder as I type this.
People who go on the most about the terrible "catsuits" seem to tend not to feel anyone can have an understandable differing view, and that open contempt is permissable. Not everyone obviously, but I notice it more and more.
Honestly, I felt the same way with the "can you not see this?" commentary above--as if I'm some kind of mental defective for not viewing Seven the same way as the moderator does. But I did try and set my irritation aside because I'm not sure if the derision is real or if it just comes across that way.
To borrow from "Amadeus," you are passionate PKTrekGirl, but you do not persuade.
But then, PK's feelings about Kate are pretty much my feelings about Jeri. She's a smart, funny, sweet and with a surprising lack of ego that's refreshing in Hollywood (and in the restaurant industry for that matter...) and has dealt with her share of challenges with dignity and grace.
So perhaps it's that we're both coming at it with a biased perspective there.
Okay, first, I don't recall engaging you much at all in this conversation. And I certainly didn't laugh at you. Please point out where I laughed at you. I am honestly confused here.
My only post directed at you, I believe, was about how I dislike the EMH. So I am really baffled as to why you are so upset with me.
However, I will say this - and this is coming from the mod, not the poster:
In this forum, you are entitled to your own opinion. But other people (including me) are entitled to THEIR own opinions as well. You are allowed to post YOUR opinion...and I am allowed to post MINE. Whether I agree with you or not.
As mod, I would never impede your ability to post your views, and I have no intention of doing so now. But claiming that I have wronged you in some way, simply because I don't agree with you, is WAY out of line.
I fully support the concept of spirited debate. And occasionally (as now) participate in the spirited debate myself. But just because I hold an opinion that is different from YOURS does not make me 'offensive and rude'.
If you feel I am trolling you, then I will be happy to call Jammer in to mediate this thing as I want to be fair to all. But from where *I* sit, no rules have been broken.
Unless you consider 'disagreement with UnknownSample' to be against the rules.
Which it is not.
In this forum, debates are won and lost based on reasoned arguments. Not on the basis of writing people off as offensive and rude, simply because they don't happen to agree with you.
You want to make your case - MAKE your case. But don't resort to redefining the terms 'offensive and rude' to mean "anyone who does not agree with my position'.
"Your precious Seven." The tone is decidedly derisive here.
But, to contradict you... Chakotay was telling Janeway that he'd been wrong about Seven way back in season 5's "Infinite Regress." So your claims that he didn't trust her as far as he could throw her just a few weeks before are exaggerated.
Okay.
Now I have had about enough of this insinuation that I am using my position as moderator to get away with trolling you.
I have been very clear with you about this, but allow me to reiterate what I wrote to you in PM:
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. Further, you are welcome to post that opinion, and I will fully defend your right to do so.
However, this does NOT mean that I, or anyone else in this forum, is forced to agree with you.
Because THEY are just as much entitled to their opinions as you are to yours. And *I* am just as much entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
So playing the victim every time someone disagrees with you is NOT gonna fly in here.
If you want to make a case, then make it. But don't start up a silly and unnecessary drama about how the big bad moderator is being mean to you, simply because I pointed out an inconsistency in your post.
If you are gonna play THAT game, then I will be done having ANY sort of a conversation with you in my position as poster, and will deal with you ONLY in my capacity as moderator.
You want to debate the issues, then debate the issues. But what you have accused me of here is WAY out of line. And is frankly, not worthy of the sort of debates that normally occur in this forum.
Maybe you can get away with that sort of thing elsewhere, but it won't fly in here.
I try VERY hard to be fair. And not ONCE have I gone after you as moderator and tried to use my position to prevent you from posting your views. Quite the contrary, in fact.
So I suggest you back the hell OFF on this 'I am a victim of the moderator' routine.
And just ARGUE YOUR CASE.
And if you can't do that, then I'll get Jammer to moderate this thread. Or I'll close it altogether.
Which would be a pity, because it WAS an interesting debate.
Okay. I think that about does it.
I will now notify Jammer, and he will moderate this thread.
I think that would be best for all involved.
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