Character Development

[PorthosShadow]

I'm not a huge fan of VOY mainly because it was written so poor. However, iregardless of how poor the writing was the characters were going to change over the course of seven years just due to the amount of time. Perhaps if VOY had been on for 30 years, they might have come close to DS9

 

[Anwar]

Sometimes people aren't so weak that they allow every experience they have every week to drastically alter their personalities to the point they are completely different people with nothing in common with who they were a month ago. VOY's cast were mostly just not that weak.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

B'Elanna. With Tom, Chakotay, Tuvok and Janeway's constant attention she finally stopped running and faced her deepest fears.

Not until Lineage, quite a bit late in the game. She was a walking reset button.

This is true, and it was incredibly frustrating.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I actually disagree. B'Elanna wasn't a reset button, she was a work in progress. When one watches episodic tv, one gets the impression that all problems are solved within 60 minutes, including commercial breaks. Childhood trauma revealed, faced, defeated, move on before the previews for the next week.

B'Elanna's traumas were deep and not eased with a simple pat on the back and an "atta girl". She needed to learn over time to trust people, and to trust them in different venues. Sure she trusted Chakotay after serving with him in the alpha quadrant and the delta quadrant, but not enough to share with him her personal story, much less her depression over the dead Maquis.

She didn't confide in Tom during "Faces" because she trusted him, as much as it was because she was scared and vulnerable and he was handy. Sure, she told him about hiding her forehead as a child, but never confided anything else of significance until they started dating 3+ years later.

B'Elanna's journey was similar to many "real life' journeys, one step forward and often 2 steps back or several steps sideways... but she stayed the course and reaped the rewards.

Naturally, YMMV.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Most of the time it was not about character development, it's about 45 minute morality plays that could be made using any characters from any Trek, or even non-Trek, series.

What can we say about Kim? He never promoted or got laid (much)?

 

[RyuRoots]

Sometimes people aren't so weak that they allow every experience they have every week to drastically alter their personalities to the point they are completely different people with nothing in common with who they were a month ago. VOY's cast were mostly just not that weak.

Anwar. Learn reading comprehension, please. I know you won't, but it really would help you in the long run. No one has ever said they wanted that. No Trek series has done that. Ever. Not one of them.

Static non-developed character and what you said are extremes. An extreme is something that is too far to one side, Anwar. Still with me?

We wanted somewhere inbetween, like what the Doctor, Seven, and Tom got. They were all decently developed IMO (esp. the first two) but they're still obviously the same people. If you still don't understand, make another thread, please.

This is all I will say on this point in this thread, and I apologize to others for dragging off-topic a bit, but I couldn't resist addressing that point.

And Kim did get laid once...kinda. He says she didn't have the equipment for sex, but he got an STD. Hrm. That and Timeless (effectively an alternate reality) are, unfortunately, as close as poor, dumb Harry would come to developing.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Sometimes people aren't so weak that they allow every experience they have every week to drastically alter their personalities to the point they are completely different people with nothing in common with who they were a month ago.

In terms of story telling, I agree with you on this. I know that viewers (including me) would like to see more character arcs from week to week. However, I think doing that is kind of risky because it could get really pedantic from week to week. As for real people, your right in that we all have good and bad experiences in life but it takes a long period of time for those experiences to accumulate into something that drastically alters our personality(s).

Now, far as TV is concerned, the writers and actors don't have a life time to change. It has to be done quickly but with in the realm of plausibility and that is certainly by no means an easy task. The DS9 team was very good as character development but the team over on VOY just threw in the towel in.

VOY's cast were mostly just not that weak

Finally, I've always said with a few exceptions that the cast of VOY was not a bad one, it was just bad writing that plagued them. If the writers from DS9 were working on those characters, it would have been a different story but alas that was not to be the case.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But few people are so incredibly strong that they can forever walk untouched through staining pitches of inspiration and intimidation.

Kim is so resistant to change I am surprised he consented to learn how to talk when he must have been positive that anything beyond nursing with his pucker is an abomination.

 

[Anwar]

The DS9 team was very good as character development but the team over on VOY just threw in the towel in.

That's mainly because most of DS9's cast were pretty much opposed to, or not in line with, Trekian ideals and such (like the Doctor and Seven); this distinctiveness made it easier for them to be developed as the show went on. Since tension between characters was ordered to be dropped by UPN, most of VOY's cast WEREN'T like that anymore and as such their development potential wasn't that great.

 

[tvih]

I'd have to go with the obvious choices (Doctor and Seven) as well. I suppose that overall the show does lack a bit in the character development section, but then at the same time I must wonder why so many people say this about Voyager but not TNG, which I feel was a bit "stiff" as far as characters went and also had several - maybe even a majority of - characters that didn't really change much at all during the series. Compared to a few non-Trek shows, in my opionion all Treks feel as though they lack a bit in that department. Well ok, I'll have to exclude TOS from that, I've only watched half of the first season so far. (And no need to flame for this, opinions are just opinions after all )

 

[Withers]

That's mainly because most of DS9's cast were pretty much opposed to, or not in line with, Trekian ideals

Name one action that a DS9 core cast member took that couldn't be matched on Voyager in terms of "Trekian Ideals."

and such (like the Doctor and Seven); this distinctiveness made it easier for them to be developed as the show went on.

Thanks in no small part to a sentence structure I'm not entirely comprehending that doesn't seemingly make a lot of sense.

The Doctor and Seven are the obvious exceptions because there was no choice but to develop them when you look at where those characters started. The Doctor was a hostile program who felt deeply unappreciated. If he remained that way no one would have liked him. Same goes for Seven of Nine; if she kept insisting she be returned to the Collective and that the Borg were who she belonged with over humanity, the auidence would eventually be like "Fine! Then Go!" They had to develop those characters... it had nothing to do with any BS about ideals.

Since tension between characters was ordered to be dropped by UPN,

That's an overstatement. Even if it weren't, what you're refering to about the Marquis/Federation tension in the early seasons was used about as much as it could have been to fuel character development. Torres went on a similar (albeit less pronounced) journey to the Doctor's in that she had to become less hostile (the rest of that sentence is 'over time' which is the part they ultimately left out.)

most of VOY's cast WEREN'T like that anymore and as such their development potential wasn't that great.

I'm still trying to make sense of what you're trying to say but if I understand it correctly you're saying that most of Voyagers characters weren't written with any intrinsic need to change and I agree. And that's what happened; it didn't matter if Harry, Tuvoc, Chakotay, Paris or Torres changed all that much... so they didn't.

And whose fault is that?

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

UPN, for having the potential development those characters all had be dropped before the premiere was over.

 

[Withers]

They didn't though. Let me clarify something that hasn't been to my knowledge.

The Marquis/Starfleet tension was dropped entirely too soon. But it was under pressure from the Network... so why is understood. That's not what the question is in this case. The question revolves around what would have been done with it had it been allowed to remain intact and present until a realistic conclusion?

I think they would've had some great stories develop out of it and would have had some character moments that were lacking (especially for Chakotay). I don't think Chakotay or Torres could've gotten much more, character development wise, out of being Marquis than they did though. They played that card all the way past the point Voyager re-established communication with the Alpha Quadrant. If we're talking about character development the pressure to drop the tension between the Marquis and Starfleet Officers only goes so far and certainly doesn't excuse it entirely.


What else ya got?

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

They were also told to be more episodic and not continuous with storytelling, which is another strike against most character development.

Another major problem was probably with Jeri Taylor, she was the one who wanted a lighter show, holo-novel stories, etc. Since Michael Piller wanted the opposite, this was the main cause of the schizophrenia the show suffered from. Then Piller left and Taylor was fully in charge, then she was asked to leave and Braga was put in charge. His main plan for the show was totally shot down, then Ken Biller was put in charge. Biller had little affection for the show and admitted he didn't really care.

What VOY needed was for the network to lay off, and one single creative direction they could all agree on. And for there to be the same people in charge from the start or close to the start.

 

[CoveTom]

If Piller had stayed in charge for the entirety of Voyager's run, and been allowed the same freedom that Behr was on DS9, I think we would have gotten a much improved show. By that I don't mean that we would have gotten something similar to DS9, but rather that Piller understood the good and the bad about Voyager and how to make it work.

Taylor was, it would seem, the biggest advocate of doing "TNG Lite" on Voyager, and that's not what we needed. Braga was all over the map. While I like many of the episodes he wrote, I just don't think he has what it takes to be a showrunner. And Biller only got to take the reins for one season, and admitted his heart wasn't in it.

 

[Anwar]

I think Braga had the right idea, since he was the one who wanted to do an entire Year of Hell. And he wrote Scorpion. But after the UPN restrictions and veto of his initial ideas came down I think he struggled to find a new direction on things.

Berman and Piller both thought it would've been better to wait until DS9 was finished (or finishing) before doing VOY. I agree, because it would've given them a lot more time to plot things out and by then CGI tech would've been cheaper that they could change the ship model more easily (this is why NuBSG did it as much as they did: it was cheaper to do it in 2003 than in 1995). And maybe get some new blood in Trek as well.

 

[exodus]

I actually disagree. B'Elanna wasn't a reset button, she was a work in progress. When one watches episodic tv, one gets the impression that all problems are solved within 60 minutes, including commercial breaks. Childhood trauma revealed, faced, defeated, move on before the previews for the next week.

B'Elanna's traumas were deep and not eased with a simple pat on the back and an "atta girl". She needed to learn over time to trust people, and to trust them in different venues. Sure she trusted Chakotay after serving with him in the alpha quadrant and the delta quadrant, but not enough to share with him her personal story, much less her depression over the dead Maquis.

She didn't confide in Tom during "Faces" because she trusted him, as much as it was because she was scared and vulnerable and he was handy. Sure, she told him about hiding her forehead as a child, but never confided anything else of significance until they started dating 3+ years later.

B'Elanna's journey was similar to many "real life' journeys, one step forward and often 2 steps back or several steps sideways... but she stayed the course and reaped the rewards.

Naturally, YMMV.

Well said.

 

[CoveTom]

Yeah, I tend to think that having two Trek shows on the air simultaneously over the long term was stretching it, and perhaps running three Trek shows back-to-back was too much as well. The original plan, as explained by Berman in numerous interviews, was for Deep Space Nine to overlap with TNG for a brief period, as it did, and then for the baton to be handed over, so to speak, with DS9 becoming the sole Trek TV vehicle and TNG becoming the movie series.

However, when Paramount saw the relative success of both TNG and DS9 being on the air at the same time, they decided to abandon that plan, and ordered Berman to create what became Voyager, and keep two series on the air indefinitely. I think that was one of their fatal mistakes. It was just too much in too short a period of time. You suddenly had one ongoing series, the premier of a new series, and the premier of a TNG movie all within a few months of each other. No one in the audience ever had time to get hungry for more Trek, since they were being fed it at every turn.

I happen to actually think that TNG, DS9, and Voyager were all good Trek series. I think Voyager could have been better than what it was, had it not been hampered by both network interference and creative burnout. But I still think it was good. But, collectively, they were too much, too quick.

I'm glad that we have all of the 24th century Trek episodes to experience, but I can't help thinking that had they been a little more reserved in their approach, taken their time with new series, and occasionally had some shuffling of the writing talent to avoid creative burnout, we might still be seeing new Trek on TV today, instead of hanging everything on a rebooted film series.

Oh, and BTW, I do agree that Braga's concept for a year-long "Year of Hell" arc was a great one, and I'm saddened by what we lost there.