LOL forgive me...some of these threads are so long I truly can't keep up.
They are calling her "Kellygirl" and he is....drum roll........that's right..."Kellyboy"....ugh! Scuse me...need to go throw up now.
Changing last name after marriage: Who takes whose?
- Thread starter SeerSGB
- Start date
LOL forgive me...some of these threads are so long I truly can't keep up.
They are calling her "Kellygirl" and he is....drum roll........that's right..."Kellyboy"....ugh! Scuse me...need to go throw up now.
Where do you think this tradition came out? A magician's hat?
I'll spell it down for you, since you apparently are incapable (or unwilling) of such:
1. It is a tradition born out of a patriarchal society, where wives were sold from the father (maiden surname) to the husband (married surname). That is the reason of the name change. It has shit to do with "becoming one flesh".
2. To insist on this tradition, is to endorse (even unknowingly) this system that equate women to commodities. It's discriminatory because it implies a subservient position for the wife to the husband.
3. You insist that you will be willing to take her surname, but that probably she will take yours due to tradition. Well, since it is a sexist tradition, it becomes a sexist action. You may be not sexist yourself, but you are doing a sexist action.
I suppose it's not your reason for supporting that, but you can't play naive and tell me that you didn't know all this.
...and for the last time, what is so confusing about using a different convention?
Have you even given a single thought to what a woman's perspective might be about this? You are very quick to attack Michael Chris without ever considering the fact that his future wife would be a party to the discussion. Unless you can prove conclusively otherwise (i.e. by a DIRECT statement that this is what he's doing, or some sort of surveillance footage showing a conversation between him and his fiancee--and yes, that's extreme, but I'm trying to show you just how far you'd have to go to "prove" that he is not telling the truth!) this is NOT just him making a decision and forcing it.
Just because I am willing to change my last name does NOT make me anybody's chattel. If I saw even the slightest hint of that in a man, believe me, I would NOT even contemplate marrying him. I would dump him so fast it would make his head spin. I actually did that once. I wasn't actually dating the guy at the time, but considering it--and when I found out how he thought of women, believe me...I cut him down to size, fast. I think he took it pretty hard...but I hope he learned the lesson from me before he ever entered a permanent relationship.
If I choose to get married, it is because I made a choice. It is not because any man forced me to do so. And I will not marry any man without making sure he knows what the deal will be, right up front: equality or nothing. I intend to discuss all of the hot-button issues while dating...religion, philosophies, financial responsibility, careers, desire for children and how they are properly raised, everything else--there is no reason to enter into a marriage, in my opinion, without KNOWING the responses thoroughly and agreeing on them. I will do my research. (And if a man can't withstand such discussions, then that's not the sort of person I want to marry.) If there is not agreement...believe you me, I will not enter into a marriage.
I do believe that I will give up my name when I marry. For starters, I do personally believe that a family that is committed to stay together forever SHOULD share a last name. Whoever changes their name, I don't care. But I think it means something to show that you are committed to the relationship and not just doing it as a trial run until you find something better.
In my case, as I said before, I am not particularly attached to my last name. It's a very common one. Furthermore, I despise my middle name, and frankly, I want a reason to get rid of it without offending my parents. (And yes, they would be offended if I got a legal name change.) That I would choose to change my name does not make me subservient. It means I have volunteered and I have made the choice. No more, no less.
DO NOT read things into it that are not there. That is a very offensive behavior.
Nerys Ghemor said:
Speaking as a long-married person (22 years - eek! - last Saturday!)...
The thing is, when you get married, there are only so many name options. You can:
1. Go the traditional route - woman taking the man's name.
2. Go the very (in the U.S. and lots of other places) non-traditional route - man taking the woman's name.
3. Go another very untraditional route - come up with a compromise name, e.g., Smith+Jones = Smith-Jones; Smithers+Johnson = Johnthers or Smithson; Smith+Jones = Something different from either of these; etc.
4. Everybody keeps his or her birth name, leaving only the question of what to name children, if any.
5. Some combination of these.
That's pretty much it, yes? So unless both people are equally enthusiastic about one of these options - the same one - at least one person is going to have to compromise, and sometimes both. It's as simple as that.
No matter how the woman-takes-man's-surname tradition started, it no longer has anything to do with somebody owning another person. And the proof is all around you. Look at the women you know, and look at those who took their husband's name. Are they all chattel? Are they all submissive? Are they all obedient little wives? No. Of course they aren't. Maybe some are, but not all. They run the gamut from submissive to bossy. So let's just forget all about this "chattel" stuff, OK?
In some hispanic cultures, including some far more conservative when it comes to women's rights than the U.S. is, just about everybody has two surnames, one from his/her mother's family and one from his/her father's, and when a couple marries, the woman routinely combines one of her birth surnames with one of her husband's surnames, sometimes hyphenated, sometimes not. Sounds very liberated and all, doesn't it? Except that it ain't necessarily so.
Which just goes to show that these things are a lot more complicated than "taking your husband's name makes you chattel." A lot more complicated.
There are more intimate decisions than "What name do I want people to call me by?"...but not that many. So why doesn't everybody just take a deep breath and let other people, the ones who are going to have to live with it, make this decision the way it seems best to them? Trust me, they don't need your advice.
In case you're wondering what I decided to do, all those 22 years ago...I hedged. I agree with Nerys that sharing a last name is a very potent symbol of family-ness, and that's important. That's what a marriage is, after all - creating a new family. And yet...I like my birth name. A lot. Nothing wrong at all with my husband's last name or his family, but all I can say is that anybody who thinks it's easy to use one name for X number of years and then suddenly have an entirely different name thinks that way only because he/she has never tried it. It's a very, very, very odd sensation. And I already had established a certain professional reputation under the name I was born with, too.
So I use my birth name for work, but my married name for everything else, including all the financial stuff. This is sometimes a little confusing, but not that big of a deal. Plus, it means that I have a secret identity - like Superman.
And anybody who thinks I'm an obedient little wife is in for a big surprise.
Thank you for taking the time to provide some perspective, JustKate--and for corroborating what I said, that this chattel thing is BS.
Like I said...in my own case--as hard as this may be for people to believe, it is not so much a matter of traditionalism so much as the fact that I am not particularly attached to my own name. My first name, yes...I would say I'm lukewarm about it, but of all of my name, that's the part that means the most to me and changing it is not something I could do. Keeping that is really all I need, personally, to feel a sense of continuity.
The rest of it--the last and the middle--I can't say I really have that much of an emotional attachment to it. (Except for my middle name. Which I hate.) As for continuation of the family name...it'll continue on my great uncle's side of the family; that's not a concern to me.
I dunno...I guess you're fortunate you were given a name that you actually COULD get attached to, JK.
And THANK YOU very much for the example of other countries' customs. That's a very good illustration.
Like I said...in my own case--as hard as this may be for people to believe, it is not so much a matter of traditionalism so much as the fact that I am not particularly attached to my own name. My first name, yes...I would say I'm lukewarm about it, but of all of my name, that's the part that means the most to me and changing it is not something I could do. Keeping that is really all I need, personally, to feel a sense of continuity.
The rest of it--the last and the middle--I can't say I really have that much of an emotional attachment to it. (Except for my middle name. Which I hate.) As for continuation of the family name...it'll continue on my great uncle's side of the family; that's not a concern to me.
I dunno...I guess you're fortunate you were given a name that you actually COULD get attached to, JK.
And THANK YOU very much for the example of other countries' customs. That's a very good illustration.
^ Well, it's very unusual, my birth name. Very unusual. I've never personally met anybody else who has it except for close blood relatives. I know there are some people with the same name who are related more distantly, but not very many - I understand there's a Facebook page for everybody who shares my (very unusual) birth name. I haven't visited there yet. The thought just blows my mind, though.
And I know what you mean about really hating your middle name. I like mine, but my mother simply loathed hers, and I think she waited about 24.5 minutes after she married my dad to start the process of ridding herself of that thing by taking my dad's surname and using her maiden name as her middle name. She was thrilled to see her old middle name disappear from everything but her birth certificate and diploma.
Anyway, back OT, you're welcome. I just really think that anybody who starts making assumptions that doing X automatically means Y...really needs to stop and think for a second. It's a name. It's a very personal thing. It's the thing used to differentiate, as much as possible, each person from each other person. Who's going to have to live with that name? So whose choice should it be?
We're very fortunate in the U.S. (and a lot of other places) that really, people can do whatever they want with their name, so long as they aren't trying to defraud anybody. We have a choice. So let's just let everybody make his or her own choice and try not to make assumptions about that choice without evidence.
And I know what you mean about really hating your middle name. I like mine, but my mother simply loathed hers, and I think she waited about 24.5 minutes after she married my dad to start the process of ridding herself of that thing by taking my dad's surname and using her maiden name as her middle name. She was thrilled to see her old middle name disappear from everything but her birth certificate and diploma.
Anyway, back OT, you're welcome. I just really think that anybody who starts making assumptions that doing X automatically means Y...really needs to stop and think for a second. It's a name. It's a very personal thing. It's the thing used to differentiate, as much as possible, each person from each other person. Who's going to have to live with that name? So whose choice should it be?
We're very fortunate in the U.S. (and a lot of other places) that really, people can do whatever they want with their name, so long as they aren't trying to defraud anybody. We have a choice. So let's just let everybody make his or her own choice and try not to make assumptions about that choice without evidence.
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Amen. My name, my choice.
If a woman can choose what to do with her health and her body, and this is liberation...shouldn't the name fall into the same category? Shouldn't it be choice for everyone, on everything?
(That would basically be the libertarian argument.)
I'd be irritated if my wife wanted to take my last name.
I'm the only McCarthy here! You be you!
Using the word "chattel" is overstating it, of course, but, as you say, it's normally the woman who compromises, because it's expected of her. And the reason for that is that women were once property, and then were second-class citizens; that may have mostly changed, but this tradition is a surviving element of those times.
^ Well, and that's OK. Lots of traditions are surviving elements of times past - that is after all how something gets to be a tradition, right? 
I don't know, sometimes it seems as though people think compromise is automatically bad. And I admit that it certainly can be. But it's also essential - in life generally and, for damn sure, in marriage. Yes, it is true that in the U.S. today, it's more generally the woman who makes this compromise.
But the thing is that a compromise made from a position of strength is completely different from a compromise that's been forced on you - that's the difference, I sometimes think, between a compromise and a concession.
Well, nobody can force you to change your name these days, not in the part of the world I live in. So if somebody decides to change her (or his) name, all I'm saying is, why not allow her the dignity of assuming, until it's proven otherwise, that she did so for what she believes are good and sufficient reasons? That she is trying to do her best for herself, her marriage and the family that has been created by that marriage?
Because what I really dislike is the idea that - and I'm not talking about anybody here, but I've definitely run into it out here in Reality Land - if person A makes a choice different from the choice person B favors, person B automatically assumes the worst of person A. That's not right. It's not right to assume that if somebody chooses to keep her birth name, that's because she "isn't really commited to the marriage," nor is it right to assume that if somebody chooses to take her husband's name, she did so only because "societal expectations forced her to" or because "she's too weak to stand up for herself." I hate that stuff. We have freedom, so why not let people exercise that freedom? Live and let live.
I don't know, sometimes it seems as though people think compromise is automatically bad. And I admit that it certainly can be. But it's also essential - in life generally and, for damn sure, in marriage. Yes, it is true that in the U.S. today, it's more generally the woman who makes this compromise.
But the thing is that a compromise made from a position of strength is completely different from a compromise that's been forced on you - that's the difference, I sometimes think, between a compromise and a concession.
Well, nobody can force you to change your name these days, not in the part of the world I live in. So if somebody decides to change her (or his) name, all I'm saying is, why not allow her the dignity of assuming, until it's proven otherwise, that she did so for what she believes are good and sufficient reasons? That she is trying to do her best for herself, her marriage and the family that has been created by that marriage?
Because what I really dislike is the idea that - and I'm not talking about anybody here, but I've definitely run into it out here in Reality Land - if person A makes a choice different from the choice person B favors, person B automatically assumes the worst of person A. That's not right. It's not right to assume that if somebody chooses to keep her birth name, that's because she "isn't really commited to the marriage," nor is it right to assume that if somebody chooses to take her husband's name, she did so only because "societal expectations forced her to" or because "she's too weak to stand up for herself." I hate that stuff. We have freedom, so why not let people exercise that freedom? Live and let live.
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^^ Actually, I just assume that most people do it without thinking about it much at all, just because it is the tradition; just like most people go through the standard process of bridal shower, bachelor party, wedding with gown and tux and organ music and marching, and reception with dinner afterwards. It's just the way things are done. And then some people think about it and decide to go along with it, for whatever reasons good or bad; and some people decide to do something different, for whatever reasons good or bad. Such is life....
Yeah, I think that pretty much covers it. 75% of what 75% of people do is simply conforming to the way things are or the way things are done without much thought.
People tend to stick with what they know, not because they neccessarily- or indeed often- have any particular reason to be loyal to it, but simply for the very reason that that's how it works. It's basic instincts- if something is stable the way it is, don't go around poking sticks at it and trying to destabilize it, because that causes all sorts of problems. People are loyal to tradition, not to the details that constitute that tradition but to the tradition itself. Some of us do question things and poke sticks- I'm one of them, most definitely- but if we ALL did that it would be chaos. Every issue or custom or attitude or way of doing things requires people who follow and people who question. It's a balance that prevents us either stagnating or blowing ourselves apart. Staying still is not good, but neither is throwing ourselves over a cliff. Questioning is always essential, but condemning those who follow tradition is foolish. Far too much of people's time is spent pointing fingers and hissing and spitting because other people either conform to or do not conform to the traditional ways, whatever issue we're talking about. They forget we are all on the same side in this: working out what is best for our people. Conservative or progressive- it is all necessary.
Very diplomatic. 
Yeah, I think that pretty much covers it. 75% of what 75% of people do is simply conforming to the way things are or the way things are done without much thought.
You know, I'm almost sure you're wrong, RJ and Deranged - though now that I think about it, I can understand why you might have come to this conclusion. I'm sure there are women - and we are talking about mostly women - here in the U.S. who change their names without thinking about it, but...
I don't know any. Really. I swear. Well, OK, that's not completely true since I did grow up with some conservative Mormons, and I have known a conservative Mennonite or two, and presumably it wasn't an issue for them. (Although you never know.) And presumably it wasn't an issue for most women a few decades back. (Ditto.)
But during my adult life - and I've been an adult for quite a while now - I haven't had even one female friend who got married and didn't think about the whole "What name are you going to use?" thing for at least a little while. We all think about it, and most of us talk about it, too - to our girlfriends or our sisters or somebody. And quite a few of us think about it a LOT.
The fact that they haven't talked about it to you doesn't mean that they haven't thought about it, and the fact that so many end up doing the traditional thing also doesn't mean they haven't thought about it. They have, they have.
Have either of you changed your name or any reason at all? If you haven't, you don't know what it's like. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but it's odd. So of course women think about it. You're underestimating them if you think that they don't.
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And some of us have done our thinking waaaaay in advance.
I still haven't even started DATING anyone I would like to possibly marry, but like JK's mother, knowing I've got a chance to ditch the middle name I can't stand, without offending my parents (who WOULD feel miffed) by going and doing it for any other reason, is a big plus for me when it comes to changing my name.
So is the possibility (depending on who I marry) of my name actually sticking out in the phone book and not being so damn hard to sort out from all the other people who share my last name. Knowing me and my tastes in men (at least, as far as appearance goes: and I would say "Mediterranean" is the best description), I would say I'm likely to end up with a name that will be easier to locate, compared to what I have now.
I still haven't even started DATING anyone I would like to possibly marry, but like JK's mother, knowing I've got a chance to ditch the middle name I can't stand, without offending my parents (who WOULD feel miffed) by going and doing it for any other reason, is a big plus for me when it comes to changing my name.
So is the possibility (depending on who I marry) of my name actually sticking out in the phone book and not being so damn hard to sort out from all the other people who share my last name. Knowing me and my tastes in men (at least, as far as appearance goes: and I would say "Mediterranean" is the best description), I would say I'm likely to end up with a name that will be easier to locate, compared to what I have now.
I am soooo dying to know this middle name of yours!! I'm like a child at Christmas!!
My last name is pretty bad too..and I have 2 middle names...so my phone name is like 30 letters long....I bet if you PM'd your middle name to me you'd just feel a whole lot better...you know?
My friends name was Sue...well that's what we thought her name was until I saw her registration one day in the car...her parents named her Honey and her middle name was sue (LOL)...but here we were...her best friends and she wouldn't tell us...good thing I guess...of course we had some good natured ribbing that she couldn't handle about it. But in reality it wasn't even a big deal....but her making it one was.
So with that being said....you should just purge yourself of it....you'll feel so much better.
My last name is pretty bad too..and I have 2 middle names...so my phone name is like 30 letters long....I bet if you PM'd your middle name to me you'd just feel a whole lot better...you know?
My friends name was Sue...well that's what we thought her name was until I saw her registration one day in the car...her parents named her Honey and her middle name was sue (LOL)...but here we were...her best friends and she wouldn't tell us...good thing I guess...of course we had some good natured ribbing that she couldn't handle about it. But in reality it wasn't even a big deal....but her making it one was.
So with that being said....you should just purge yourself of it....you'll feel so much better.
Sorry to come back late at the party, I didn't look at this thread for some time.
I was arguing against MC's (perceived?) attitude of "well, duh, it's how it's done".
And by the way, are Italian guys among your favourite choices of Mediterranan looks?
I did try to look at a woman's perspective on the matter, but I can't pretend to see it thorough. I'm not suggesting women are not active partners when it comes to changing their name: I really don't know where did you find that in my post.
I was arguing against MC's (perceived?) attitude of "well, duh, it's how it's done".
And that is your opinion, as a woman. I find it old-fashionate, but whatever flows your boat. It is, however, a conscious choice made by you, not the default done out of "tradition". That was my pet pevee.
I didn't. But if that was how it came out of my posts, I apologize nonetheless.
And by the way, are Italian guys among your favourite choices of Mediterranan looks?
You know, I think most people wouldn't find anything wrong with the name. I think my problem comes more from the fact that just about every single person I met in my life who had that same name as a first name was a grade-A jerk.
Maybe I should be the judge if this name is so bad or not...? Yes I should be the sole judge here....YES!
OK I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours....I told the HoneySue story...isnt' that worth anything at all???
And the Volkswagen was developed by Nazi Germany, but that doesn't mean that people who buy them are White Supremacists. So what?
