Changeling and Conservation of Mass/Energy
- Thread starter infinix
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Magic.
*moves on*
Actually, I suppose that M1+E1=M2+E2. If the mass after changing shape is less than the first mass, then the difference would be observable as energy of some form.
*moves on*
Actually, I suppose that M1+E1=M2+E2. If the mass after changing shape is less than the first mass, then the difference would be observable as energy of some form.
And since the most common (useless) form of energy is heat, can we suppose that whenever the changeling reduces its size, the ambient temperature in the surrounding environment (AND the changeling itself) is increased a few degrees Celsius? And if the reverse is happening, that temperature will drop a few degrees Celsius?
Yes-- and the if the changeling wanted to increase its mass during a change, it would absorb some of the heat energy in the surroundings (making the room a bit colder [like a ghost?! Sub-Rosa anybody?]). Good point. Need to increase mass by a lot? Just turn up the environmental controls!
I always thought that changelings maintained a consistent mass no matter what they transformed into.
For Example, when Odo turns into a bird (which he does a few times) he has the same mass as when he is a humanoid. It just means that he would have to alter his density to accommodate a larger or smaller form.
This does bring up another point however, just how small can a changeling compress itself? It wouldn't be able to compress itself dense enough to overcome electron degeneracy pressure, so they must have some minimum size they can shift into..... possibly a maximum as well.
For Example, when Odo turns into a bird (which he does a few times) he has the same mass as when he is a humanoid. It just means that he would have to alter his density to accommodate a larger or smaller form.
This does bring up another point however, just how small can a changeling compress itself? It wouldn't be able to compress itself dense enough to overcome electron degeneracy pressure, so they must have some minimum size they can shift into..... possibly a maximum as well.
But that theory wouldn't fly, literally. When Odo turned into a bird, he was the size of a crow. Something of that volumn and that surface area can only be so heavy before it wouldn't be able to be airborne.
If the mass was small enough for the bird to actually fly, and that exact mass is transferred to a volumn of a humanoid the size of Odo, Odo's mass density would be so low that he could fly away if Kira simple sneezes.
Yeah, I thought about that too.....
I guess we could assume that Odo's "natural" size (meaning his natural density) is when he is in his bucket regenerating. He is fairly small in that bucket, not all that much bigger than a vary large bird. This also means that as a humanoid, he is not very dense, and not very heavy. His light weight seems to be supported by the episode where Mrs. Troi lets Odo regenerate in her dress. If he weighed as much as an average person, the dress would have ripped and Mrs. Troi would most certainly not have been able to hold him up.
I think that this "density" theory is the only one that really makes sense. Converting mass to energy and back again just to shape-shift would not really work out. One of the only ways mass-energy conversion happens is through nuclear fusion or fission. Fusion is happening constantly inside stars where the immense pressure and temperature makes it possible to collide hydrogen nuclei together to form helium nuclei along with a certain amount of energy (which can be calculated through Einstein's good old E = mc^2 equasion). There are methods of converting mass into energy as well. Particle accelerators can do this but the result is always an equal amount of matter and anti-matter which then combines and turns back into energy within milliseconds.
So do changelings use fusion to alter their mass? I don't see how. The conversion of mass and energy, as far as I understand it, appears to only take place (in large quantities) in the most extreme conditions. Unless Odo has a mini particle accelerator inside him, I'll stick with the density theory.
This discussion assumes that everything we currently know about the laws of physics, and matter, and energy, and so forth is correct and complete.
I just assume -- and, granted, I know this is the easy way to avoid explaining things -- that there is some aspect to the relationship between matter and energy, and how mass and volume work, that we don't fully understand, having never encountered anything remotely like a changeling.
I just assume -- and, granted, I know this is the easy way to avoid explaining things -- that there is some aspect to the relationship between matter and energy, and how mass and volume work, that we don't fully understand, having never encountered anything remotely like a changeling.
I guess it's possible that Odo "shunts" a portion of he weight elsewhere when he contracts his size. Bit I (like others) think that Odo simply doesn't weigh very much to start with.
From the experience between he and Mrs. Troi in the turbo-lift I'd be surprised if Odo weighed in at more than fifteen of twenty pounds.
If he could get what little mass he possessed moving fast enough he could still strike others with force, and if he could also "anchor" the bottoms of his feet to the surface he was standing upon, then forcefully move people and objects (holding a prisoner by the upper arm) wouldn't be a problem.
Curiously, in "Vortex", Croden comments that Odo actually is heavier than he looks, i.e. probably a tad heavier than a humanoid of his size would be expected to be.
This happens when Croden is hauling the seemingly unconscious and unresisting Constable to safety, so the mass evident there might be considered Odo's "natural" mass. Or at least the mass his humanoid form always has, regardless of whether it is conscious or not. (Although odds are that Odo was merely faking unconsciousness in order to find out whether Croden's latest story was yet another lie, or whether the villain in fact did have his heart in the right place.)
The concept of Odo pushing some of his self into another realm is appealing not only to explain the mass discepancies, but to explain where Odo's communicator goes when he shapeshifts. Again in "Vortex", Odo is a transparent, very light drinking glass originally, then gets shattered to pieces much smaller than a communicator, and then changes to his Constable form - and taps his badge to communicate!
The alternate explanation would be that Odo has some of the telekinetic skills so common in Star Trek, and can increase or decrease his gravitic pull quite regardless of his mass (which might be some 100 kg according to the unconscious-carry scene). But the badge issue would remain unexplained, then. Unless Odo also has common psychic skills that make people "fail to see" the badge. But his shapeshifting isn't psychic trickery, as his size and shape verifiably change so that he can go through small openings or hold two distant objects apart.
Timo Saloniemi
^ I have always been partial to the theory of Changelings being multi-dimensional beings. It neatly explains several odd aspects that were never explained on screen.
And to add to that theory, I prefer to think the Changelings are a collective "hive" of subspace energy beings that use a fluid matrix to exist in this universe. For brief periods of time they can drag matter from their fluid bodies over into subspace allowing them to morph into smaller creatures or objects.
And to add to that theory, I prefer to think the Changelings are a collective "hive" of subspace energy beings that use a fluid matrix to exist in this universe. For brief periods of time they can drag matter from their fluid bodies over into subspace allowing them to morph into smaller creatures or objects.
...Their true "essence" might even permanently reside in otherspace, explaining how they can become convincing rocks or mists or other physical manifestations incapable of hiding sentience.
One wonders what Changeling digestion is like. Odo says he doesn't eat, but does he acquire mass from somewhere? Can any mass serve as Changeling material, as long as there's sufficient otherspace Changelingness reaching into it and transforming it?
That is, if a Changeling becomes a rock, might he completely "leave" that rock and thus become a perfect imitation, without any hidden Changelingness remaining and marring the imitation?
If so, can he then "assume" the preexisting other rock three meters to the right, change that into a seagull and fly away? Or does he have to "return" to the exact original rock even if he wholly "departed" it originally? That might be a tad too much to ask, and is not observed in the episodes, so perhaps the Changelingness never completely withdraws to otherspace after all.
Timo Saloniemi
One wonders what Changeling digestion is like. Odo says he doesn't eat, but does he acquire mass from somewhere? Can any mass serve as Changeling material, as long as there's sufficient otherspace Changelingness reaching into it and transforming it?
That is, if a Changeling becomes a rock, might he completely "leave" that rock and thus become a perfect imitation, without any hidden Changelingness remaining and marring the imitation?
If so, can he then "assume" the preexisting other rock three meters to the right, change that into a seagull and fly away? Or does he have to "return" to the exact original rock even if he wholly "departed" it originally? That might be a tad too much to ask, and is not observed in the episodes, so perhaps the Changelingness never completely withdraws to otherspace after all.
Timo Saloniemi
I remember reading one of the early DS9 novels, by Peter David. In his introduction, he said that he had been in touch with Okuda or Sterbach or someone like that, trying to nail down the rules of Odo's shapeshifting. At that time, the answer was that Odo's mass never changed.
So, Peter David's story had Odo changing into a small rat and using his teeth to grab onto someone's heel or leg. Since Odo's weight was still about 150-200 lbs, it had the same effect as if a humanoid Odo had grabbed the person by their arm. But obviously, those rules were quickly thrown out by the series writers.
I'm always of the mindset that I'd like to see realistic physics applied and would have liked to see them stick to the original rule set. I think that limitations can be interesting to a character and a story. I also never liked the idea that Odo didn't eat. Why wouldn't he have to eat (or at least absorb by osmosis)? Would photosynthesis really be enough?
In terms of his combadge, they could have established that the badge's casing was part of Odo but that he carried around its bare circuitry inside of himself. That would eliminate at least a small part of its bulk. If he had to shapeshift into something where he would not even be able to carry the circuit, he would be forced to leave it behind.
But anyway, if I wanted to think up some kind of justification for why he can change his mass so readily, how about Changelings being able to generate their own artificial gravity and having little to no inherent mass? Maybe they could set it and forget it until they needed to change their apparent mass, instead of having to keep concentrating every waking moment on generating that gravity. Could that make sense?
So, Peter David's story had Odo changing into a small rat and using his teeth to grab onto someone's heel or leg. Since Odo's weight was still about 150-200 lbs, it had the same effect as if a humanoid Odo had grabbed the person by their arm. But obviously, those rules were quickly thrown out by the series writers.
I'm always of the mindset that I'd like to see realistic physics applied and would have liked to see them stick to the original rule set. I think that limitations can be interesting to a character and a story. I also never liked the idea that Odo didn't eat. Why wouldn't he have to eat (or at least absorb by osmosis)? Would photosynthesis really be enough?
In terms of his combadge, they could have established that the badge's casing was part of Odo but that he carried around its bare circuitry inside of himself. That would eliminate at least a small part of its bulk. If he had to shapeshift into something where he would not even be able to carry the circuit, he would be forced to leave it behind.
But anyway, if I wanted to think up some kind of justification for why he can change his mass so readily, how about Changelings being able to generate their own artificial gravity and having little to no inherent mass? Maybe they could set it and forget it until they needed to change their apparent mass, instead of having to keep concentrating every waking moment on generating that gravity. Could that make sense?
If we go by that theory, then how can a changeling ever be killed? If the changeling was ever in danger, it would simply retract into that other dimension.
I think we see enough evidence on screen that when a changeling changes into a object, it always changes back FROM that object. We never see the object simply exist at have the changeling appear somewhere else at the same moment.
In the episode "The Begotten", Dr. Mora states the baby Changeling is gaining mass so it would have to be gaining it from somewhere. The fluid's biomass (it would have to be organic and possibly cellular to be capable of chemical processes to generate "morphogenic enzymes") could be collecting materials from the surrounding area to generate new fluid. It could be collecting energy from subspace to fuel the biological processes.
And I would think it would have to go back into its original mass to trigger the morphogenic change. It was my understanding that the cells of a Changeling don't actually become the material it is becoming but merely mimics its attributes, but I could be wrong.
But the writers were always very vague about the actual nut and bolts of Changeling physiology. One moment they are going on about biological processes and cell structures and the next they are making claims about the fluid's ability to become something else. Who can say what is right and what is wrong.
I never said they can completely push into subspace, maybe some of their mass (for brief periods) but not all of it. And since they require the fluid mass to survive, without it they would die. Destroy enough of their bio mass and they dissipate like dandelion fluff on a summer wind.
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On the biological vs. pseudoxenomagical nature of the Changelings, we can pretty safely claim that all the biochemical evidence on them comes from the Cardassian, Bajoran and Federation study of Odo.
That is, it would be no wonder if the association of DNA with Odo in "A Man Alone" were but a grave mistake, a misconception borne out of the fact that the baby Odo instinctually adopted a DNA-based biochemical form and that the adolescent Odo we watched throughout most of the show never learned to abandon that unnecessarily limiting form. Another young Changeling might have chosen a DNA-free type of existence from the outset, or an older one would have dropped that existence long ago and would only use it for occasional camouflage.
It's a very convenient loophole, having Odo be so young and inexperienced and confused about his own nature...
Timo Saloniemi
That is, it would be no wonder if the association of DNA with Odo in "A Man Alone" were but a grave mistake, a misconception borne out of the fact that the baby Odo instinctually adopted a DNA-based biochemical form and that the adolescent Odo we watched throughout most of the show never learned to abandon that unnecessarily limiting form. Another young Changeling might have chosen a DNA-free type of existence from the outset, or an older one would have dropped that existence long ago and would only use it for occasional camouflage.
It's a very convenient loophole, having Odo be so young and inexperienced and confused about his own nature...
Timo Saloniemi
