Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the musical score is very good.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the musical score is very good.
Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sense
- Thread starter enterprisecvn65
- Start date
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Bar the aforementioned BoP scene I thought the visual effects in Generations were excellent, they had a very slick, expensive looking feel to them, and I thought they were, in parts better than First Contact, and 100% better across the board than Insurrection. There were so many good FX sequences in the movie, in fact I should have nominated some of them in the other effects thread on this board.
Bar the aforementioned BoP scene I thought the visual effects in Generations were excellent, they had a very slick, expensive looking feel to them, and I thought they were, in parts better than First Contact, and 100% better across the board than Insurrection. There were so many good FX sequences in the movie, in fact I should have nominated some of them in the other effects thread on this board.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
What I find particularly telling is a comparison of the Stellar Cartography sequence in GEN with a somewhat similar sequence late in NEM (even involving the same characters, go figure...done right they may have even been able to reference the earlier occasion). Missed opportunities for the latter film.
The reused footage in TWoK didn't bother me as much, probably in part because none of it is during a high point of the film, the footage during the KM scenario actually sort of makes sense, and it didn't feel like a part where new footage was greatly needed. I mean, it's the E in drydock, and it's necessary to have such a scene, but I think anyone who'd seen TMP would agree there wasn't any need for even more impressive shots of the E in drydock.
Then again, I may be more willing to let TWoK get away with such because I also consider it a better film overall.
What I find particularly telling is a comparison of the Stellar Cartography sequence in GEN with a somewhat similar sequence late in NEM (even involving the same characters, go figure...done right they may have even been able to reference the earlier occasion). Missed opportunities for the latter film.
The reused footage in TWoK didn't bother me as much, probably in part because none of it is during a high point of the film, the footage during the KM scenario actually sort of makes sense, and it didn't feel like a part where new footage was greatly needed. I mean, it's the E in drydock, and it's necessary to have such a scene, but I think anyone who'd seen TMP would agree there wasn't any need for even more impressive shots of the E in drydock.
Then again, I may be more willing to let TWoK get away with such because I also consider it a better film overall.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
- He's good-looking!
- He knows the limitations of his ship and is mercilessly realistic about them.
- He's brave enough to act (that is, not act!) based on those limitations despite the press watching.
- When fate kicks him in the groin anyway, there being nobody else around to do a work that really should be done by a full-time "coast guard" of some sort, he does engage in rescue ops. He doesn't strike a heroic pose, though, despite the cameras: it's more like he's apologetic about not having much to offer to the refugees in distress!
- He tries out everything a starship skipper ought to.
- Having exhausted his own ideas, he calls out for more.
- Kirk provides some; turns out they don't work all that well (Kirk dies, and so do many of the refugees, and the ship is hurt), but Harriman sees they're better than nothing and acts on them.
- Throughout it all, he retains his cool; even more importantly, he stays good-looking!
TPTB could have cast somebody who looks like a wimp and then have him wrangle his hands while whimpering orders the audience knows make no sense. They did the exact opposite, and still managed to make Kirk look good...ish.
Timo Saloniemi
What's there to disparage?
- He's good-looking!
- He knows the limitations of his ship and is mercilessly realistic about them.
- He's brave enough to act (that is, not act!) based on those limitations despite the press watching.
- When fate kicks him in the groin anyway, there being nobody else around to do a work that really should be done by a full-time "coast guard" of some sort, he does engage in rescue ops. He doesn't strike a heroic pose, though, despite the cameras: it's more like he's apologetic about not having much to offer to the refugees in distress!
- He tries out everything a starship skipper ought to.
- Having exhausted his own ideas, he calls out for more.
- Kirk provides some; turns out they don't work all that well (Kirk dies, and so do many of the refugees, and the ship is hurt), but Harriman sees they're better than nothing and acts on them.
- Throughout it all, he retains his cool; even more importantly, he stays good-looking!
TPTB could have cast somebody who looks like a wimp and then have him wrangle his hands while whimpering orders the audience knows make no sense. They did the exact opposite, and still managed to make Kirk look good...ish.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Hard to argue when you put it that way!
Hard to argue when you put it that way!
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Geez. You put it that way Harriman puts Picard's competence to shame.
Geez. You put it that way Harriman puts Picard's competence to shame.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
I think the entire 23rd century portion of the film, including Harriman, works very well. It's probably the best part of the film, taken as a whole.
The visual effects are among the best of the film series, the Nexus in particular is very striking. I adore the shot of the Nexus approaching Soran on Veridian 3, that one shot is among my favorite in all of the films. The crash of the Enterprise D, from a visual standpoint, is also very well executed.
The coda with Picard and Riker on the bridge is probably the last time in any of the TNG films that felt like TNG tv. The scene really struck the right tone for the characters, and it has always stuck with me.
I think the entire 23rd century portion of the film, including Harriman, works very well. It's probably the best part of the film, taken as a whole.
The visual effects are among the best of the film series, the Nexus in particular is very striking. I adore the shot of the Nexus approaching Soran on Veridian 3, that one shot is among my favorite in all of the films. The crash of the Enterprise D, from a visual standpoint, is also very well executed.
The coda with Picard and Riker on the bridge is probably the last time in any of the TNG films that felt like TNG tv. The scene really struck the right tone for the characters, and it has always stuck with me.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Pretty hard to argue those points. The only think I would say different that I think gives him a bad rep is even though he never loses his cool there are a few shots where he looks really paniced and doesn't know what to do. Generally a captain isn't supposed to show such outward signs of those feelings. I think those clips made him look bad when his actions otherwise
Pretty hard to argue those points. The only think I would say different that I think gives him a bad rep is even though he never loses his cool there are a few shots where he looks really paniced and doesn't know what to do. Generally a captain isn't supposed to show such outward signs of those feelings. I think those clips made him look bad when his actions otherwise
IrishNero
Commodore
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
I'm totally guessing here, but I think an Actor with the amazing range that Patrick Stewart had would probably have preferred a little more drama as opposed to being unwaveringly calm, cool and collected all of the time. In fact, I think he had expressed his unhappiness at times about the lack of range the character had been able to express, or at least earlier in the series.
I'm totally guessing here, but I think an Actor with the amazing range that Patrick Stewart had would probably have preferred a little more drama as opposed to being unwaveringly calm, cool and collected all of the time. In fact, I think he had expressed his unhappiness at times about the lack of range the character had been able to express, or at least earlier in the series.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Dude's under a huge amount of pressure and is up against several walls in what was supposed to be a publicity stunt, and he still came through. Worry and fear are normal human reactions, but how one fights through or with it determines character (I wouldn't say panicked really. He would be doing things like freaking out or pulling out his hair if that were the case). The best of leaders need to know grace under pressure, and he did it. I'd cut him some slack in the "apparent fear" department.
One of the best subtle shots in the movie, I thought, was Kirk conceding command to Harriman. It showed Kirk's faith in the captain of the Enterprise, a position that's earned because of such a heavy name. And Harriman's confidence boost from a Starfleet legend jumped 200%. He just needed a pep talk, that's all.
(though, how unfortunate that Harriman got more character development in those 5 minutes than LaForge or Crusher ever got in their movies combined)
Dude's under a huge amount of pressure and is up against several walls in what was supposed to be a publicity stunt, and he still came through. Worry and fear are normal human reactions, but how one fights through or with it determines character (I wouldn't say panicked really. He would be doing things like freaking out or pulling out his hair if that were the case). The best of leaders need to know grace under pressure, and he did it. I'd cut him some slack in the "apparent fear" department.
One of the best subtle shots in the movie, I thought, was Kirk conceding command to Harriman. It showed Kirk's faith in the captain of the Enterprise, a position that's earned because of such a heavy name. And Harriman's confidence boost from a Starfleet legend jumped 200%. He just needed a pep talk, that's all.
(though, how unfortunate that Harriman got more character development in those 5 minutes than LaForge or Crusher ever got in their movies combined)
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Things I liked about Generations:
1) I thought the Picard Nexus dream, whether it made sense for the character or not, was nicely acted and executed.
2) I thought the Data emotion chip business was all very well acted, fun, and nicely written...but it didn't belong in this movie. It got in the way of the Kirk-Picard stuff.
3) "Time is the fire in which we burn" is one of the best, most thought-provoking lines in the series.
4) Speaking of #3, I thought the whole mortality issue was a very Star Trek theme. Too bad it didn't get a better movie.
5) The Enterprise-D being lost was unexpected and emotionally jarring.
I think the reason Generations is so maligned is not because it's so bad, but because it came so close to being awesome and failed miserably that it makes it an easy target. Especially since so much of what went wrong seems so easily fixable. You can totally see the writers were on to something and fell short. There's an excellent movie somewhere in Generations, but it didn't follow through.
Things I liked about Generations:
1) I thought the Picard Nexus dream, whether it made sense for the character or not, was nicely acted and executed.
2) I thought the Data emotion chip business was all very well acted, fun, and nicely written...but it didn't belong in this movie. It got in the way of the Kirk-Picard stuff.
3) "Time is the fire in which we burn" is one of the best, most thought-provoking lines in the series.
4) Speaking of #3, I thought the whole mortality issue was a very Star Trek theme. Too bad it didn't get a better movie.
5) The Enterprise-D being lost was unexpected and emotionally jarring.
I think the reason Generations is so maligned is not because it's so bad, but because it came so close to being awesome and failed miserably that it makes it an easy target. Especially since so much of what went wrong seems so easily fixable. You can totally see the writers were on to something and fell short. There's an excellent movie somewhere in Generations, but it didn't follow through.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Hell, just giving the Klingons a modern vessel and making the ensuing battle something better than the Enterprise firing one phaser beam and one photon torpedo would improve the movie 200%
I'll be the first to admit that in a story arc sense the Duras sisters probably shouldn't have a modern vessel given the setbacks they'd suffered, but most people seeing the movie aren't going to care about that, especially if the battle is something worth seeing.
The whole VISOR thing was...unfortunate, especially given that it's been established as a point of vulnerability previously.
Hell, just giving the Klingons a modern vessel and making the ensuing battle something better than the Enterprise firing one phaser beam and one photon torpedo would improve the movie 200%
I'll be the first to admit that in a story arc sense the Duras sisters probably shouldn't have a modern vessel given the setbacks they'd suffered, but most people seeing the movie aren't going to care about that, especially if the battle is something worth seeing.
The whole VISOR thing was...unfortunate, especially given that it's been established as a point of vulnerability previously.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Thanks to Netflix, I can rewatch the TOS scene again!
A couple things to add:
1. The close-ups of the Excelsior-class Ent-B are pretty sweet, especially against the backdrop of the Nexus. I don't think TUC brought the camera nearly as close to the Excelsior as it did the Ent-A. Behind TMP, it's also probably the best ship-to-cosmic weirdo scene in the first 10 movies.
2. The first appearance of the Nexus was pretty breathtaking, and it was a neat way to get the TOS crew (even if it was 3 of them) involved in a modern-day TNG-style cosmic anomaly mystery. Seeing how the heroes of yesterday fare against modern challenges is fun, in my book, and hey, they saved the day. No school like the old school.
3. Above all else, the idea of a mystery stretching from TOS time to TNG time was a good way to get two different crews onto one case. It could've been handled better, sure, but the initial framework was solid.
---
Now, more generally speaking, I also liked seeing all those TNG/DS9 uniforms mingling together. I might be in the minority there, but I liked seeing the variety, and it helped mix things up visually for the big screen -- which isn't bad considering they're TV uniforms. I'd also like to imagine that the DS9 uniforms became so popular that Starfleet loosened their rules on uniforms to allow them to mingle in the first place.
Thanks to Netflix, I can rewatch the TOS scene again!
A couple things to add:
1. The close-ups of the Excelsior-class Ent-B are pretty sweet, especially against the backdrop of the Nexus. I don't think TUC brought the camera nearly as close to the Excelsior as it did the Ent-A. Behind TMP, it's also probably the best ship-to-cosmic weirdo scene in the first 10 movies.
2. The first appearance of the Nexus was pretty breathtaking, and it was a neat way to get the TOS crew (even if it was 3 of them) involved in a modern-day TNG-style cosmic anomaly mystery. Seeing how the heroes of yesterday fare against modern challenges is fun, in my book, and hey, they saved the day. No school like the old school.
3. Above all else, the idea of a mystery stretching from TOS time to TNG time was a good way to get two different crews onto one case. It could've been handled better, sure, but the initial framework was solid.
---
Now, more generally speaking, I also liked seeing all those TNG/DS9 uniforms mingling together. I might be in the minority there, but I liked seeing the variety, and it helped mix things up visually for the big screen -- which isn't bad considering they're TV uniforms. I'd also like to imagine that the DS9 uniforms became so popular that Starfleet loosened their rules on uniforms to allow them to mingle in the first place.
Last edited:
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
He's probably dropping "tagwords" like time and fire in every one of his sentences and seeing whether they have an effect, then working on that. But is there a way to rationalize how he homed in on fire from the very start? He's also a techno-wizard: was he tapping into Picard's private correspondence or at least Starfleet Newsflash? Or is he a weak telepath? He misses too often to be a powerful one...
Timo Saloniemi
One does wonder how Soran came to use that line. Sure, he's probably one hell of a "cold reader", like all El-Aurians seem to be. But how?
He's probably dropping "tagwords" like time and fire in every one of his sentences and seeing whether they have an effect, then working on that. But is there a way to rationalize how he homed in on fire from the very start? He's also a techno-wizard: was he tapping into Picard's private correspondence or at least Starfleet Newsflash? Or is he a weak telepath? He misses too often to be a powerful one...
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
I do like a lot of Soran's lines.
"Don't you feel time is gaining on you? It's like a predator... it's stalking you. Oh you can try and outrun it with doctors, medicines, new technologies. But in the end time is going to hunt you down and make the kill."
I lot of it is down to Malcolm McDowell's reading of the lines. There's a delicious sound in his voice like you can tell Soran is really relishing laying it all on this thick.
I do like a lot of Soran's lines.
"Don't you feel time is gaining on you? It's like a predator... it's stalking you. Oh you can try and outrun it with doctors, medicines, new technologies. But in the end time is going to hunt you down and make the kill."
I lot of it is down to Malcolm McDowell's reading of the lines. There's a delicious sound in his voice like you can tell Soran is really relishing laying it all on this thick.
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
I'd like to think it's a combination of things: Guinan-like cosmic mysticism (without the enlightenment, of course), and that Soren is just well-read. The line is from Delmore Schwartz.
Or he could have lucked out at a moment when everything to Picard was a trigger word. If Riker waltzed into Ten Forward with a bowl of Five Alarm Chili and offered some to Picard without hearing the news...
I'd like to think it's a combination of things: Guinan-like cosmic mysticism (without the enlightenment, of course), and that Soren is just well-read. The line is from Delmore Schwartz.
Or he could have lucked out at a moment when everything to Picard was a trigger word. If Riker waltzed into Ten Forward with a bowl of Five Alarm Chili and offered some to Picard without hearing the news...
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Me too, but it was a little blatant what they did with the lower hull on it. They just put those jutting bits on it so they could be blown up! It still improved the look of the Excelsior class though so I'll let them off
Me too, but it was a little blatant what they did with the lower hull on it. They just put those jutting bits on it so they could be blown up! It still improved the look of the Excelsior class though so I'll let them off
Re: Change of pace lets talk about things in Generations that made sen
Even if some say the lines were meant for Spock and Bones, I get a lot of joy from Kirk's interactions with Chekov and Scotty.
What else? The film looks great for the most part, very cinematic, and the score is very good too.
I'm one of those who quite likes Data's emo chip sub-plot. It provides relief from what is a fairly seriously themed movie, and gives Spiner a chance to do some acting. I genuinely feel for Data when he realises he has become incapacitated by his emotions.
I don't understand this - Kirk never dissed Scott. The only possibles I can find are examples of playful banter, chiefly Kirk responding to Scott's teasing:
Even if some say the lines were meant for Spock and Bones, I get a lot of joy from Kirk's interactions with Chekov and Scotty.
What else? The film looks great for the most part, very cinematic, and the score is very good too.
I'm one of those who quite likes Data's emo chip sub-plot. It provides relief from what is a fairly seriously themed movie, and gives Spiner a chance to do some acting. I genuinely feel for Data when he realises he has become incapacitated by his emotions.
Similar threads
