Chancellor L’Rell and Klingon culture moves backwards in a century

[Groppler Zorn]

Over on the Trekmovie they’ve posted an article stating that L’Rell is now the chancellor of the Klingon high council.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/21/8-...overy-season-2-at-comic-con-press-conference/

Good for her.

Azetbur also was a chancellor about 40 years later following the assassination of Gorkon.

Gowron is either an idiot or Klingon society changes vastly from the TMP era to the TNG era - illustrated in either DS9 or (more likely) TNG when he proclaims “women may not sit on the council” either in reference to that lady Quark married or to those treacherous Duras sisters.

So what the hell Klingons?

What happened to your society that made you shun women following the century where you had not one but TWO female chancellors (that we know of)?

That makes me like TNG Klingons a little less.

 

[ITDUDE]

Ah, you still think STD is in Prime universe? All answers are found when we start assuming STD is not Prime.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Ah, you still think STD is in Prime universe? All answers are found when we start assuming STD is not Prime.

Yeah I’m ignoring what my eyes and brain tell me about its “primeness”

Tbf though I think the Gowron comment comes after Star Trek VI where female chancellors are established - so this is a problem in prime continuity as well.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think society regresses in the Klingon Empire. I'm half-Iranian. In Iran, it used to be more European until 1979 when the Ayatollah took over.

Then, while not the same exact thing, there's the situation going on today and how society has regressed. But I'll keep my mouth shut about that. I seriously had a bad weekend and have no filter right now.

So, yes, it's entirely believable, unfortunately, that L'Rell and Azetbur could run the Klingon Empire and then some moron extremist comes into power and decides that women may no longer serve on the High Council, throwing red meat to his base.

 

[Terok Nor]

I just assumed Azetbur did such a terrible job the Council decided to ban all women. L'Rell is using a bomb to control the Empire so she wouldn't be popular either.

I thought I saw a woman on the Council in a DS9 episode so perhaps Gowron reversed the ban.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ah, you still think STD is in Prime universe? All answers are found when we start assuming STD is not Prime.

Since the people who are actually CREATING DSC have unequivocally stated that it takes place in the Prime timeline...that ends the discussion right there. It is not our place to question them.

I mean, you don't have to LIKE the show, of course. If it's not your thing, then fine. But who are you to tell DSC's showrunners what it "is"? Only those involved in creating a show (or film, or novel, or whatever) can know for sure what that thing actually IS.

 

[Lord Garth]

Klingon Society regressed. It's not an inconsistency. It's something that's a little too believable.

 

[ITDUDE]

It is not our place to question them

Oh, but it is!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ah, you still think STD is in Prime universe? All answers are found when we start assuming STD is not Prime.

Nah. it means Berman Trek isn't Prime.

 

[eschaton]

Isn't it pretty much explicitly said at one point during the TNG "Klingon arc" Moore wrote that the Council has become quite ossified and corrupt in recent generations? That being the case it wouldn't be surprising for it to become more backwards in other ways. Hell, given how TNG-era Klingons roll, I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with the "rule" because they had female rivals on the council and it was a convenient way of politically defeating them.

 

[Tuskin38]

Didn’t one of the writers say that was a mistake on their part?

 

[Greg Cox]

Didn’t one of the writers say that was a mistake on their part?

Perhaps, but it's a mistake easily rationalized. Cultures are not static and there's about a century. between the TOS era and TNG. Time enough for the rules regarding women on the Council to change for the worse.

Heck, go back and look at 1918. American women still didn't have the vote only a hundred years ago. Look how much the rules have changed since then.

The Klingons just went in the other direction for some reason.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Over on the Trekmovie they’ve posted an article stating that L’Rell is now the chancellor of the Klingon high council.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/21/8-...overy-season-2-at-comic-con-press-conference/

Good for her.

Azetbur also was a chancellor about 40 years later following the assassination of Gorkon.

Gowron is either an idiot or Klingon society changes vastly from the TMP era to the TNG era - illustrated in either DS9 or (more likely) TNG when he proclaims “women may not sit on the council” either in reference to that lady Quark married or to those treacherous Duras sisters.

So what the hell Klingons?

What happened to your society that made you shun women following the century where you had not one but TWO female chancellors (that we know of)?

That makes me like TNG Klingons a little less.

Before the 1979 invasion

Think of women in Afghanistan now, and you'll probably recall pictures in the media of women in full-body burqas, perhaps the famous National Geographic photograph of 'the Afghan girl', or prominent figures murdered for visibly defending women's rights. But it hasn't always been this way.

'As a girl, I remember my mother wearing miniskirts and taking us to the cinema. My aunt went to university in Kabul.' - Horia​

Until the conflict of the 1970s, the 20th Century had seen relatively steady progression for women's rights in the country. Afghan women were first eligible to vote in 1919 - only a year after women in the UK were given voting rights, and a year before the women in the United States were allowed to vote. In the 1950s purdah (gendered separation) was abolished; in the 1960s a new constitution brought equality to many areas of life, including political participation.

But during coups and Soviet occupation in the 1970s, through civil conflict between Mujahideen groups and government forces in the '80s and '90s, and then under Taliban rule, women in Afghanistan had their rights increasingly rolled back.

Denying women human rights

Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways, for the 'crime' of being born a girl. The Taliban enforced their version of Islamic Sharia law. Women and girls were:

Banned from going to school or studying
Banned from working
Banned from leaving the house without a male chaperone
Banned from showing their skin in public
Banned from accessing healthcare delivered by men (with women forbidden from working, healthcare was virtually inaccessible)
Banned from being involved in politics or speaking publicly.​

There were many other ways their rights were denied to them. Women were essentially invisible in public life, imprisoned in their home. In Kabul, residents were ordered to cover their ground and first-floor windows so women inside could not be seen from the street. If a woman left the house, it was in a full body veil (burqa), accompanied by a male relative: she had no independence.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/womens-rights-afghanistan-history

 

[Timo]

What's the actual problem here? Two women became Chancellors without AFAWK a single working day as members of the Council. That's how a Klingon gets to positions of power. If the Durases are forced to skip the tedious Council Member step, all the better for them!

Of course, TNG offers two contradictory datapoints here. In "Reunion", Gowron tries to bribe K'Ehleyr, mentioning command of a starship and seat on the Council before openly stating that many positions are open to her. But in "Redemption", he dismisses the idea that the Durases would be aiming at Council leadership by stating that women may not serve in the council.

Two obvious ways out. One, things changed after "Reunion"; Klingons may love their traditions but their politics is all realpolitik, and the rules may chance overnight with the proper assassination or bit of blackmail or whatnot. Two, things changed before "Reunion"; both the command of a ship or a seat on the Council may be things utterly unavailable to women at the time, and Gowron in fact mocks K'Ehleyr here, before moving on to saying that any realistic demands will be met if she wants payment for backing him.

But the less obvious one remains that while everything in the Empire is in flux, the one thing that may stay is that no Council Member ever becomes the Chancellor. And even hinting that a woman might volunteer for the humiliating servitude of a CM job is contrary to Klingon thinking on that sex...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Since the people who are actually CREATING DSC have unequivocally stated that it takes place in the Prime timeline...that ends the discussion right there. It is not our place to question them.

They don't get to tell us how to interpret the material. Seriously, if they were so confident that we would see it as the Prime timeline, why the need to tell us over and over that it is?

 

[Wulfsa]

Roses are red, the sky is blue, they give a f. whats prime 4 you (us)....

 

[ELURIA]

Perhaps, but it's a mistake easily rationalized. Cultures are not static and there's about a century. between the TOS era and TNG. Time enough for the rules regarding women on the Council to change for the worse.

The Klingons just went in the other direction for some reason.

The reason being Alex Kurtzman and company haven't got a clue about canon yet insist it's all Prime

 

[Tuskin38]

The reason being Alex Kurtzman and company haven't got a clue about canon yet insist it's all Prime

Canon has said women have been chancellor before.

It was the DS9 or TNG writers that screwed up, not Discovery’s.

 

[ITDUDE]

They don't get to tell us how to interpret the material. Seriously, if they were so confident that we would see it as the Prime timeline, why the need to tell us over and over that it is?

Research department - Fans think they want to see Prime Trek
Finance department - Ok, let's give them Prime Trek
Showrunners - Ok, let's give them Prime Trek
Finance - Also, make it 25% different
Showrunners - But won't it then mean it's not Prime
Finance - Research?
Research - Fans want Prime
Creative - 25% wtf?!? The'll never buy it's Prime
Finance - They have to
Showrunners - Ok, we'll just tell them it is
Finance - Okilly dokilly
Creative - But, but, but...
Everyone - STFU Creative, and close your Facebook account too!

 

[Uhura's Song]

Over on the Trekmovie they’ve posted an article stating that L’Rell is now the chancellor of the Klingon high council.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/21/8-...overy-season-2-at-comic-con-press-conference/

Good for her.

Azetbur also was a chancellor about 40 years later following the assassination of Gorkon.

Gowron is either an idiot or Klingon society changes vastly from the TMP era to the TNG era - illustrated in either DS9 or (more likely) TNG when he proclaims “women may not sit on the council” either in reference to that lady Quark married or to those treacherous Duras sisters.

So what the hell Klingons?

What happened to your society that made you shun women following the century where you had not one but TWO female chancellors (that we know of)?

That makes me like TNG Klingons a little less.

Societies regress all the time. Take the US right now. Poland. Hungary.

Iran & Lebanon. Cuba. Israel.