Chancellor L’Rell and Klingon culture moves backwards in a century

[valkyrie013]

Well, to me, All the hoopla about Klingons in Disco was a much ado about nothing. I mean, there was no furthering of the Klingon story in Disco, In Tng we had storyies fleshing out the Klingon socity, honor, etc, same for Ds9, voyager, and Enterprise. There was no reason given for the war beyond.. Arg! War!! -_- There was no depth, no stories, the bad guy could have been alien R45 and have been the same story.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Before the 1979 invasion

Think of women in Afghanistan now, and you'll probably recall pictures in the media of women in full-body burqas, perhaps the famous National Geographic photograph of 'the Afghan girl', or prominent figures murdered for visibly defending women's rights. But it hasn't always been this way.

'As a girl, I remember my mother wearing miniskirts and taking us to the cinema. My aunt went to university in Kabul.' - Horia​

Until the conflict of the 1970s, the 20th Century had seen relatively steady progression for women's rights in the country. Afghan women were first eligible to vote in 1919 - only a year after women in the UK were given voting rights, and a year before the women in the United States were allowed to vote. In the 1950s purdah (gendered separation) was abolished; in the 1960s a new constitution brought equality to many areas of life, including political participation.

But during coups and Soviet occupation in the 1970s, through civil conflict between Mujahideen groups and government forces in the '80s and '90s, and then under Taliban rule, women in Afghanistan had their rights increasingly rolled back.

Denying women human rights

Under the Taliban, women and girls were discriminated against in many ways, for the 'crime' of being born a girl. The Taliban enforced their version of Islamic Sharia law. Women and girls were:

Banned from going to school or studying
Banned from working
Banned from leaving the house without a male chaperone
Banned from showing their skin in public
Banned from accessing healthcare delivered by men (with women forbidden from working, healthcare was virtually inaccessible)
Banned from being involved in politics or speaking publicly.​

There were many other ways their rights were denied to them. Women were essentially invisible in public life, imprisoned in their home. In Kabul, residents were ordered to cover their ground and first-floor windows so women inside could not be seen from the street. If a woman left the house, it was in a full body veil (burqa), accompanied by a male relative: she had no independence.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/womens-rights-afghanistan-history

In the old days Star Trek may have tried to do an allegory about something like this.

But from the posts below I’m beginning to think that this was something that’s Gowron brought into force after he became chancellor

 

[Groppler Zorn]

In "Reunion", Gowron tries to bribe K'Ehleyr, mentioning command of a starship and seat on the Council before openly stating that many positions are open to her. But in "Redemption", he dismisses the idea that the Durases would be aiming at Council leadership by stating that women may not serve in the council.

Gowron in fact mocks K'Ehleyr here

That’s something I’d not considered. Maybe “a seat on the council” and “command of a ship” were essentially sarcastic and Gowron was taunting K’Ehleyr. As you say, he was suggesting unrealistic things before getting down to the real demands. Which, if true could suggest that, since the 23rd century —>

Societies regress all the time.

Which means that the future is female everywhere except the Klingon empire. And it doesn’t make sense for Klingons to do this.

Worf waxes lyrical about how Klingon women are their partners in battle. Martok goes on about how awesome his wife is. There are female warriors on Klingon ships for heavens sake.

Maybe Gowron was so spooked by the Duras family that he changed the law? He wasn’t above putting his own political gain above the good of the empire - look at what he did to Martok in the waning days of the dominion war.

 

[eschaton]

Well, to me, All the hoopla about Klingons in Disco was a much ado about nothing. I mean, there was no furthering of the Klingon story in Disco, In Tng we had storyies fleshing out the Klingon socity, honor, etc, same for Ds9, voyager, and Enterprise. There was no reason given for the war beyond.. Arg! War!! -_- There was no depth, no stories, the bad guy could have been alien R45 and have been the same story.

The absolute worst part was the entire "Klingon drama" was reduced to four people - Voq, L'Rell, T'Kuvma, and Kol. There were a handful of others who at least had names (like that woman who wore the head jewelry) but they weren't characters really.

Thus, at the end of the season, since T'Kuvma was dead, Kol was dead, and Voq was in a human body, L'Rell had to control the Klingon Empire, because there was no one else left to do it.

 

[eschaton]

Which means that the future is female everywhere except the Klingon empire. And it doesn’t make sense for Klingons to do this.

Worf waxes lyrical about how Klingon women are their partners in battle. Martok goes on about how awesome his wife is. There are female warriors on Klingon ships for heavens sake.

Maybe Gowron was so spooked by the Duras family that he changed the law? He wasn’t above putting his own political gain above the good of the empire - look at what he did to Martok in the waning days of the dominion war.

The Klingon Empire never seemed sexist in general, but we know that Klingon nobility under normal circumstances operated under semi-salic primogeniture, meaning the role for Klingon women within the ranks of nobility was very proscribed. It just wasn't the case elsewhere.

 

[Kor]

What's the actual problem here? Two women became Chancellors without AFAWK a single working day as members of the Council. That's how a Klingon gets to positions of power. If the Durases are forced to skip the tedious Council Member step, all the better for them!

Of course, TNG offers two contradictory datapoints here. In "Reunion", Gowron tries to bribe K'Ehleyr, mentioning command of a starship and seat on the Council before openly stating that many positions are open to her. But in "Redemption", he dismisses the idea that the Durases would be aiming at Council leadership by stating that women may not serve in the council.

Two obvious ways out. One, things changed after "Reunion"; Klingons may love their traditions but their politics is all realpolitik, and the rules may chance overnight with the proper assassination or bit of blackmail or whatnot. Two, things changed before "Reunion"; both the command of a ship or a seat on the Council may be things utterly unavailable to women at the time, and Gowron in fact mocks K'Ehleyr here, before moving on to saying that any realistic demands will be met if she wants payment for backing him.

But the less obvious one remains that while everything in the Empire is in flux, the one thing that may stay is that no Council Member ever becomes the Chancellor. And even hinting that a woman might volunteer for the humiliating servitude of a CM job is contrary to Klingon thinking on that sex...

Timo Saloniemi

I think it's implicit that the "Chancellor of the High Council" is on the Council.

Kor

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Klingon nobility under normal circumstances operated under semi-salic primogeniture,

You think it’s related to Kor rejecting Martok because he was a commoner? That kind of class based nobility that might exclude women as well?

 

[eschaton]

You think it’s related to Kor rejecting Martok because he was a commoner? That kind of class based nobility that might exclude women as well?

That's my headcanon. Remember the DS9 episode House of Quark? When Quark killed Kozak, the house would have been disbanded unless Quark took nominal control, due to the lack of any male heir. Grilka had to be granted special dispensation by the High Council to remain in control of her husband's estate.

 

[Kor]

Have we ever even seen a Klingon woman in command of a ship, other than Lursa and B'Etor in GEN?

Kor

 

[Lord Garth]

Have we ever even seen a Klingon woman in command of a ship, other than Lursa and B'Etor in GEN?

Not that I recall.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

the house would have been disbanded unless Quark took nominal control, due to the lack of any male heir.

Oh yeah that’s true - that was definitely in the Gowron era, so Gowron might have brought in (or brought back?) more conservative laws?

Maybe Gowron wanted to Make the Empire Great Again?

Have we ever even seen a Klingon woman in command of a ship, other than Lursa and B'Etor in GEN?

That’s a good point - I don’t think we have. I’m starting to like TNG Klingons a little less here...

 

[Longinus]

Whilst I really never liked the 'no girls allowed' High Council rule and I wouldn't mind if they retconned it away, I'd like to point out that both female chancellorships happen in quite unusual circumstances. L'Rell obviously is not following any formal rules, so her being a woman is the least of the legal issues. Azetbur assumes the position when the previous chancellor is killed, and there is an ongoing crisis. Presumably the rule is something like 'if the chancellor dies while in office, his heir assumes the position until a new chancellor can be elected according to the traditions." If Gorgon had no male heir, then perhaps in such a situation it was possible for a female heir to assume the position, rather than the position to remain vacant in middle of a crisis situation.

Though really, just forget this rule was ever mentioned. Considering how horribly the Klingons have been retconned for this series, they might as well make some positive changes too.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

I'd like to point out that both female chancellorships happen in quite unusual circumstances

See I always thought the death of K’Mpec was unusual insofar as he died of old age (essentially - I know poison but seriously the guy was like a thousand and the longest serving chancellor ever) so they ended up doing the ceremony with all the time wasting etc.

I think Martok’s ascension was more the norm - in that it was a power grab and the previous chancellor was deposed.

So L’Rell’s becoming chancellor maybe wasn’t that unusual - hypermegadeathbomb notwithstanding - who knows?

L'Rell obviously is not following any formal rules,

I hope she can fight though - chancellors have to deal with challenges all the time. And Georgia kinda beat her ass... restraints or no...

Considering how horribly the Klingons have been retconned for this series, they might as well make some positive changes too.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Longinus]

See I always thought the death of K’Mpec was unusual insofar as he died of old age (essentially - I know poison but seriously the guy was like a thousand and the longest serving chancellor ever) so they ended up doing the ceremony with all the time wasting etc.

I think Martok’s ascension was more the norm - in that it was a power grab and the previous chancellor was deposed.

It never made any sense that anyone could just challenge the chancellor in a duel at any moment and claim the job. If it is that easy, why someone didn't just challenge K'mpec? I'm sure both Duras and Gowron would have had way easier time against him that against each other.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

It never made any sense that anyone could just challenge the chancellor in a duel at any moment and claim the job. If it is that easy, why someone didn't just challenge K'mpec? I'm sure both Duras and Gowron would have had way easier time against him that against each other.

There was possibly the brotherhood of the sword to deal with.

Maybe a challenge could only be successful if everyone agreed with the challenger. Cos everyone wanted rid of Gowron since he was ruining everyone’s good time in the dominion war - but maybe everyone kinda liked K’Mpec and the Yan Isleth would have fought to protect him?

 

[Vger23]

For all we know...the EXCLUSION of females IS social advancement from the Klingon point of view. They are, after all, aliens and kind of assholes...

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

It never made any sense that anyone could just challenge the chancellor in a duel at any moment and claim the job. If it is that easy, why someone didn't just challenge K'mpec? I'm sure both Duras and Gowron would have had way easier time against him that against each other.

With K'mpec, it was probably easier to poison his evening buffet and be done with it.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I think it's implicit that the "Chancellor of the High Council" is on the Council.

Kor

not necessarily. if the members of the Council are like members of Parliament then they are the legislative branch of government to the Chancellor who is the executive branch and therefore not part of the Council per se

 

[Groppler Zorn]

For all we know...the EXCLUSION of females IS social advancement from the Klingon point of view. They are, after all, aliens and kind of assholes...

The weird thing is that seems to contradict their attitude towards women more broadly.

That Gowron line always bugged me considering Azetbur and now L’Rell.

Another question too - will L’Rell have a bodyguard now? Or will the guard of the previous chancellor have to support her? Who was the previous chancellor? It wasn’t T’Kuvma was it?

I’d have thought it’d be dead easy to overthrow L’Rell mind you - just cut off her hand with the bomb control in it. It never has to go off. Problem solved. Qa’Pla and all that.

 

[Greg Cox]

That’s something I’d not considered. Maybe “a seat on the council” and “command of a ship” were essentially sarcastic and Gowron was taunting K’Ehleyr. As you say, he was suggesting unrealistic things before getting down to the real demands. Which, if true could suggest that, since the 23rd century —>


Which means that the future is female everywhere except the Klingon empire. And it doesn’t make sense for Klingons to do this.

Honestly, assuming that every alien civilization is progressing at the same rate as the Federation strikes me as a bit of stretch. Sure, STAR TREK is based on the notion that human society is steadily improving (aside from little bumps like the Eugenics Wars, the Bell Riots, and World War III), but STAR TREK is also full of cautionary fables about once-great civilizations that took a wrong turn. And it's not as though the Klingons were ever intended to be socially enlightened role models. They're the anti-Federation antagonists, so why should we expect them to agree with us that the future is female? They slaughter civilian populations, poison grain shipments, plot political coups and assassinations, etc.