Chakotay as the Noble Savage

[AuntKate]

Yes I can imagine a captain that would stop to ask questions of their subordinates. In fact we were shown one. How many times in a perplexing situation would Picard, on the bridge, simply pause and say "suggestions?"

When he had time for input, yes. When he didn't, he just took his best shot.

That is the depiction of a captain that is secure enough in his command abilities that he can, at any time, ask his highly trained crew of professionals for ideas.

That is a captain of the biggest ship in the fleet traveling in familiar space with friends nearby who can come to his rescue. That is a senior captain who has had decades in the center seat and who has lost a ship along the way. Give Janeway time, and she'll be there.

The best leaders know how to do this and can do it without insisting that they are always right. That was NOT Janeway. She was right, everyone else was wrong and the writers would throw logic and reason out the window so that she could be proven right. That was definately a sign of insecurity on the part of the writers.

People keep saying this, but tell me what episode (besides Scorpion, which was a daring crap shoot from the first, and Equinox, where an ally she trusted not only betrayed her but threw all of them to the wolves, literally). She listened to input and decided what she thought was best (I'm thinking "The Void" here, where Chakotay and Tuvok want to pillage to survive and she says no; I'm thinking "Timeless" where she decides to gamble on the slipstream drive after Chakotay warns her about it). I don't know of a single time where she insisted that she was always right and everyone else wrong. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Oddly enough, all of the other series managed to find time for the captain to be wrong and then apologize. But Janeway was perfect...what could she possibly have to apologize for?

Funny, I never remember Kirk or Picard apologizing about a bad decision. I'm not that familiar with DS9 or ENG to address it, so I can't say whether Archer or Sisco ever did. Could you tell me what episode these apologies happen in? I'd like to look them up. Thanks.

I do know that Janeway apologized to Chakotay in Equinox (in her own way) when she admitted during the final scene that he had reason to "throw a little mutiny" of his own. Who knows how many other times she had said such things to him or others that were "off camera." There is certainly precedent for it there.

The "Janeway can't cook" thing was just dumb. She never actually had to cook. How does one burn a pot roast in a replicator? This was an unnecessary trait that seemed out of place in a world where people get most of their food from glorified vending machines.

I totally agree--how can she mess up with a replicator? That scene in "Ashes to Ashes" was especially dumb. I always suspected Paris of fiddling with it, to be honest, and think it would have been really cool for her to find out and exact revenge in some equally conniving way. However, I was happy to see that the staff of life, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, still exist in the twenty-third century!

 

[kimc]

Yes I can imagine a captain that would stop to ask questions of their subordinates. In fact we were shown one. How many times in a perplexing situation would Picard, on the bridge, simply pause and say "suggestions?"

Actually, Janeway never asked for suggestions but she did ask for OPTIONS. "Options people?" was one of her faves. She would then listen to the various options then make a call. This was the norm in most of the conference room scenes but happened in other parts of the ship too.

The "Janeway can't cook" thing was just dumb. She never actually had to cook. How does one burn a pot roast in a replicator? This was an unnecessary trait that seemed out of place in a world where people get most of their food from glorified vending machines.

That was added on later in the series by writers who didn't know the character well. Janeway didn't LIKE to cook but she could. She made dinner for Chakotay (vegetable biryani, etc.) at least once a week.

 

[teya]

It's just as invalid to claim that one's experience as a minority is "the" definitive experience.

When dealing with issues of race and culture, the opinion of the person who is of that culture is the only one who's opinion should really matter. To suggest otherwise is to arrogantly assume that an outsider knows more about what it means to live and breathe a culture than someone who deals with it on a daily basis.

I mean really, if a Native American telling you that a depiction is not only stereo typical but offensive...who are you to tell them that they are wrong. After all the depiction has more impact on them than it does on you.

I'm not telling them they're wrong, nor am I saying that what they label as offensive is not offensive. For example, I think every ethnic team mascot should be changed TODAY because ethnic mascots are offensive; I don't have to be NA to understand that. All I said was that one individual's personal experience is not necessarily the same experience that every other person of their race and culture has lived.

To return this sort of to Chakotay rather than Janeway's ability or inability to cook...

I absolutely agree with your second point. That's the reason I don't identify my nation online. I'm a bit (just a bit? ) opinionated, and I don't want people to get the impression that everyone in my nation thinks as I do. (Well, that, and I've had a stalker... ).

However, we've had multiple people in this thread indicate that as folks with Indian heritage, from all different parts of the country, we find Chakotay's portrayal stereotypical and offensive. Yet, there are still people--non-Indians--who insist that it isn't, either because TPTB didn't mean to be (sorry, ignorance is no excuse, particularly when ignorance can be corrected so easily) or because it's so obvious that TPTB were using a Eurocentric view, so somehow this excuses it. In the latter case especially, I don't see how. That's exactly what we're complaining about!

As for team mascots? That's a case-by-case basis, and most Indians agree on that. Why should a team that has the approval of a tribe to use their name be forced to change it? Quite often, this dialogue between town and rez creates new understanding between people. Simply forcing the school to change its mascot creates resentment, which is really the last thing we need.

 

[teya]

She made dinner for Chakotay (vegetable biryani, etc.) at least once a week.

Sorry, can't resist.

This is pure fanon. There's nothing on screen to indicate she cooked for him "at least once a week."

 

[Lynx]

When dealing with issues of race and culture, the opinion of the person who is of that culture is the only one who's opinion should really matter. To suggest otherwise is to arrogantly assume that an outsider knows more about what it means to live and breathe a culture than someone who deals with it on a daily basis.

I mean really, if a Native American telling you that a depiction is not only stereo typical but offensive...who are you to tell them that they are wrong. After all the depiction has more impact on them than it does on you.

I'm not telling them they're wrong, nor am I saying that what they label as offensive is not offensive. For example, I think every ethnic team mascot should be changed TODAY because ethnic mascots are offensive; I don't have to be NA to understand that. All I said was that one individual's personal experience is not necessarily the same experience that every other person of their race and culture has lived.

To return this sort of to Chakotay rather than Janeway's ability or inability to cook...

I absolutely agree with your second point. That's the reason I don't identify my nation online. I'm a bit (just a bit? ) opinionated, and I don't want people to get the impression that everyone in my nation thinks as I do. (Well, that, and I've had a stalker... ).

However, we've had multiple people in this thread indicate that as folks with Indian heritage, from all different parts of the country, we find Chakotay's portrayal stereotypical and offensive. Yet, there are still people--non-Indians--who insist that it isn't, either because TPTB didn't mean to be (sorry, ignorance is no excuse, particularly when ignorance can be corrected so easily) or because it's so obvious that TPTB were using a Eurocentric view, so somehow this excuses it. In the latter case especially, I don't see how. That's exactly what we're complaining about!

As for team mascots? That's a case-by-case basis, and most Indians agree on that. Why should a team that has the approval of a tribe to use their name be forced to change it? Quite often, this dialogue between town and rez creates new understanding between people. Simply forcing the school to change its mascot creates resentment, which is really the last thing we need.

Since this is brought up here, I would like to ask teya: What's your opinion of the Chicago Blackhawks logo?

I'm asking this because I happen to be a fan of that team, it's my favorite team in the NHL and not because Jennifer Lien is from that area but because I took a liking to the logo and the jerseys when I was a small kid.

At that time, I had no idea of it being offensive in any way. It was some years later when I got an Internet connection that I found out that there actually was adebate about the logo. Some people found it insulting to the American Indians while some saw a logo resembling a proud warrior.

I don't know if there had been any recent statements from any organization representing the American Indians in this matter.

Personally I must say that whatever misgivings it might be, I do find the Chicago logo less offensive than the logo which a German team named "Landshut Cannibals" has which is a cartoon of a cannibal with blue face and a bone in his/her hair.

I hope that I'm not taking this thread out of topic by bringing this up.

 

[kimc]

She made dinner for Chakotay (vegetable biryani, etc.) at least once a week.

Sorry, can't resist.

This is pure fanon. There's nothing on screen to indicate she cooked for him "at least once a week."

I think it was "Course:Oblivian" that referred to their "weekly dinners". Besides that they were shown eating in her quarters several times. Either he cooked and brought the food over or more likely she cooked.

 

[teya]

I'm not telling them they're wrong, nor am I saying that what they label as offensive is not offensive. For example, I think every ethnic team mascot should be changed TODAY because ethnic mascots are offensive; I don't have to be NA to understand that. All I said was that one individual's personal experience is not necessarily the same experience that every other person of their race and culture has lived.

To return this sort of to Chakotay rather than Janeway's ability or inability to cook...

I absolutely agree with your second point. That's the reason I don't identify my nation online. I'm a bit (just a bit? ) opinionated, and I don't want people to get the impression that everyone in my nation thinks as I do. (Well, that, and I've had a stalker... ).

However, we've had multiple people in this thread indicate that as folks with Indian heritage, from all different parts of the country, we find Chakotay's portrayal stereotypical and offensive. Yet, there are still people--non-Indians--who insist that it isn't, either because TPTB didn't mean to be (sorry, ignorance is no excuse, particularly when ignorance can be corrected so easily) or because it's so obvious that TPTB were using a Eurocentric view, so somehow this excuses it. In the latter case especially, I don't see how. That's exactly what we're complaining about!

As for team mascots? That's a case-by-case basis, and most Indians agree on that. Why should a team that has the approval of a tribe to use their name be forced to change it? Quite often, this dialogue between town and rez creates new understanding between people. Simply forcing the school to change its mascot creates resentment, which is really the last thing we need.

Since this is brought up here, I would like to ask teya: What's your opinion of the Chicago Blackhawks logo?

I'm asking this because I happen to be a fan of that team, it's my favorite team in the NHL and not because Jennifer Lien is from that area but because I took a liking to the logo and the jerseys when I was a small kid.

At that time, I had no idea of it being offensive in any way. It was some years later when I got an Internet connection that I found out that there actually was adebate about the logo. Some people found it insulting to the American Indians while some saw a logo resembling a proud warrior.

I don't know if there had been any recent statements from any organization representing the American Indians in this matter.

Personally I must say that whatever misgivings it might be, I do find the Chicago logo less offensive than the logo which a German team named "Landshut Cannibals" has which is a cartoon of a cannibal with blue face and a bone in his/her hair.

I hope that I'm not taking this thread out of topic by bringing this up.

I truly have no opinion on the Blackhawks in any way, shape, or form. Not a hockey fan at all. And frankly, I think the indigenous community has a lot more to worry about than sports logos--like educating our kids, getting adequate medical care, fighting alcoholism and drug use... like survival.

The only name that really irritates me is the Redskins, because that's a word with incredibly racist derivation.

 

[teya]

She made dinner for Chakotay (vegetable biryani, etc.) at least once a week.

Sorry, can't resist.

This is pure fanon. There's nothing on screen to indicate she cooked for him "at least once a week."

I think it was "Course:Oblivian" that referred to their "weekly dinners". Besides that they were shown eating in her quarters several times. Either he cooked and brought the food over or more likely she cooked.

"Course Oblivion" isn't the real crew. And "several times" does not equal a weekly event.

 

[kimc]

Sorry, can't resist.

This is pure fanon. There's nothing on screen to indicate she cooked for him "at least once a week."

I think it was "Course:Oblivian" that referred to their "weekly dinners". Besides that they were shown eating in her quarters several times. Either he cooked and brought the food over or more likely she cooked.

"Course Oblivion" isn't the real crew. And "several times" does not equal a weekly event.

No, but they're patterned after the real crew. Why is this so important to you?

 

[teya]

I think it was "Course:Oblivian" that referred to their "weekly dinners". Besides that they were shown eating in her quarters several times. Either he cooked and brought the food over or more likely she cooked.

"Course Oblivion" isn't the real crew. And "several times" does not equal a weekly event.

No, but they're patterned after the real crew. Why is this so important to you?

Why is it so important to you?

 

[Guy Gardener]

IDIC.

The rules were different.

Any one could have been hooking up with anyone.

Though god help me if some one said "I'm not real. i just want to feel some thing, so that I can pretend that I am real." as they led someone into their bedroom.

 

[AuntKate]

I think it was "Course:Oblivian" that referred to their "weekly dinners". Besides that they were shown eating in her quarters several times. Either he cooked and brought the food over or more likely she cooked.

I think there are hints of this throughout the series. We see them eating dinner together multiple times, and it makes sense that they would do so. Who else is the captain going to be able to socialize with if not her first officer?

We see them eating together in "Timeless" and "Shattered," too. In fact, there is a definite concession to regular meals when Chakotay arrives at her quarters:
JANEWAY: Come in. You're late. Unfortunately, so's dinner.
CHAKOTAY: Let me guess. You burned the roast again.

The "Course: Oblivion" characters deviated from the "basic" character of their source DNA as little as possible. Tom and B'Elanna are together, as in reality, Janeway is obsessed with home, perhaps even moreso than in the original, and the shared dinners are a weekly habit (at a minimum). I think the "Course: Oblivion" characters can be used to assume a regular weekly mean between Janeway and Chakotay.

 

[teya]

^ Never said they didn't have meals together regularly. I don't however accept that means a weekly date, nor do I accept that to mean romance. Since I have men over for dinner and it doesn't mean romance...

I take it you have nothing to say about my response to mascots?

Or is this thread about J/C now?

 

[Thestral]

As for team mascots? That's a case-by-case basis, and most Indians agree on that. Why should a team that has the approval of a tribe to use their name be forced to change it? Quite often, this dialogue between town and rez creates new understanding between people. Simply forcing the school to change its mascot creates resentment, which is really the last thing we need.

That's good to hear, because I've always wondered about teams like Florida State who have a standing agreement with a tribe - do some Native folks consider the Seminole somehow corrupted or is there an understanding that it should be a case-by-case basis. Glad to hear that from you perspective at least, it's the latter.

 

[kimc]

^ Never said they didn't have meals together regularly. I don't however accept that means a weekly date, nor do I accept that to mean romance.

No one brought up romance until now. We were discussing Janeway "not being able to cook" and I mentioned she may not like it but that doesn't mean she can't - as evidence her cooking for Chakotay on a regular basis. Things kind of went on from there...

Does that mean we're done talking about Chakotay?

 

[AuntKate]

We have gone a bit off track here. Sorry.

 

[AuntKate]

Back to Chakotay.

Spoiler alert for "Full Circle."

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I haven't read "Full Circle," but I understand that when Janeway "dies," Chakotay goes on some sort of alcoholic binge (at least I read that he did this in a different thread) and becomes such a basket case that he is denied command of Voyager and resigns from Starfleet. Talk about writing him as a weak character. Yes, his family is gone and he has FINALLY connected with Janeway in the book, but having a NA character go bonkers on alcohol was just too "stereotypical" for me. Frankly, I was surprised that Beyer chose that reaction for him. However, it does confirm, for those of us who saw an attraction between J/C on the series, how deep and binding their relationship could be. I'm looking forward to reading this timeline once Janeway is back . . . and I believe it will happen.

 

[Square]

Hmmm. I'm wondering if I'm the only one questioning this "anti-stereotype" list.

I said they were stereotypes, I never said they were true. My point was that the fact that the writers worked so hard to make Janeway the opposite of several well-known, if not necessarily true, stereotypes was a good indicator of where their heads were at when it came to "diversity." Whether Chakotay was written as a putz because he was Native American is a distinct possibility; however, I also suspect he was "weak" in order to emphasize Janeway's strength.

In any case, it was careless.

[SPOILER ALERT]

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I haven't read "Full Circle," but I understand that when Janeway "dies," Chakotay goes on some sort of alcoholic binge (at least I read that he did this in a different thread) and becomes such a basket case that he is denied command of Voyager and resigns from Starfleet. Talk about writing him as a weak character. Yes, his family is gone and he has FINALLY connected with Janeway in the book, but having a NA character go bonkers on alcohol was just too "stereotypical" for me. Frankly, I was surprised that Beyer chose that reaction for him. However, it does confirm, for those of us who saw an attraction between J/C on the series, how deep and binding their relationship could be. I'm looking forward to reading this timeline once Janeway is back . . . and I believe it will happen.

I noticed that myself, but turning to booze in times of stress isn't necessarily abnormal for anyone of any race. I felt it was mitigated by the sessions with Cambridge wherein he tells Chakotay, point blank, that he's "been living in the shadow of Janeway's hopes and dreams for so long that he's lost the ability to decide anything outside of that context." In short, Beyer has Chakotay on his way to becoming a character in his own right as opposed to Janeway's sidekick. I even liked him in FULL CIRCLE, and I've hated his guts from the word "go." In a way, I was relieved to see him behaving in a realistic manner rather than "Star Trek perfect" mode.

 

[Lynx]

Chakotay a hopeless alcoholic who gets booted out of Starfleet!

Over my dead body!

What the **** is Kirsten Beyer doing? How many Voyager characters are going to be destroyed and ruined before they close down this pathetic "relaunch"?

 

[Thestral]

Chakotay a hopeless alcoholic who gets booted out of Starfleet!

Over my dead body!

What the **** is Kirsten Beyer doing? How many Voyager characters are going to be destroyed and ruined before they close down this pathetic "relaunch"?

Holy geez Lynx, way to go off without getting the full story. As I recall (since FC is on my own list of catch-up for TrekLit), Chakotay falls into depression and binge drinking, yes. Then he pulls himself out of it, slowly and painfully working through most of his problems, to the point that he's once again fit to take command of Voyager. Then he chooses to take an extended leave to work through the rest of his problems, and to be close to Seven who is nearly as traumatized by Janeway's death as he is (not to mention the Caeliar... problem). And remember, in the midst of this depression and binge drinking, he was capable enough to command a Starfleet Armada at the Azure Nebula (not his fault that 7K cubes came through and wiped out the fleet).