Chakotay as the Noble Savage

[Lynx]

To get back to the issue at hand--Chakotay--I just think it is a disservice to his character to have him turn to alcohol in "Full Circle" because that is such a stereotypical way to portray a Native American. No disrespect is intended to any group of people.

I agree on this statement. To portray Chakotay, who seem to be a stable and composed character as an alcoholic is nothing but character destruction. That's my opinion about this whole issue.

First Kes, then Janeway, now Chakotay. How many Voyager characters will be ruined in stupid episodes and books by people who don't seem to care about the characters and the series?

The fact that it is my top 3 Voyager characters who have been ruined, destroyed and killed off doesn't make me fell better about it.

 

[Thestral]

I never said that there wasn't a genetic propensity toward alcholism--I said I question a "racial" propensity toward it. Alcoholism is a disease that is brought on by personal choice and behavior--just as emphysema can be brought on by smoking or drug addiction by the abuse of drugs. All are certainly diseases in the long run.

Ok, so you're willing to accept a genetic propensity toward alcoholism, good. But in this context, what is "race" other than a collection of people with a similar genetic profile as compared with another "race"? If you're willing to accept that my family (or yours) can have a genetic propensity towards alcoholism, then why not for a larger group with a similar genetic distinctive? Or, take sickle-cell anemia. There's a disease that black folk have a "racial" propensity toward, as it attacks a particular genetic profile. I doubt anybody would have a problem with showing a black character struggling with sickle-cell anemia, so why have a problem with a Native American character struggling with alcoholism?

We have a branch of my family tree that seems to have a tendency to abuse alcohol. The rest of the family seems to be able to avoid that problem. I suppose there might be a gene that is handed down in that line; or there could be a subtle social conditioning at play. Or even a combination. As KimC said, we won't solve the "nature/nurture" question here.

More likely it's a combination as you suggest, where any "social conditioning" has allowed the genetic tendency free play. But this "social conditioning" doesn't any less mean we're talking about a disease.

To get back to the issue at hand--Chakotay--I just think it is a disservice to his character to have him turn to alcohol in "Full Circle" because that is such a stereotypical way to portray a Native American. No disrespect is intended to any group of people.

If Kirsten had left Chakotay in the bottle at the end of "Full Circle" it would be more troubling - if no less true - but as it is we have a character who has managed to overcome, at least temporarily, this condition. It sounds like, rather than a disservice, a hopeful tale of a man who was able to overcome his demons and look to the future. It may be disappointing at first, but we don't want to see our characters coast along, do we? Alcoholism and the dangers of that disease are a common theme among Native writers - look at Sherman Alexie's "Reservation Blues" sometime and tell me if you think that's stereotypical.

I agree on this statement. To portray Chakotay, who seem to be a stable and composed character as an alcoholic is nothing but character destruction. That's my opinion about this whole issue.

First Kes, then Janeway, now Chakotay. How many Voyager characters will be ruined in stupid episodes and books by people who don't seem to care about the characters and the series?

The fact that it is my top 3 Voyager characters who have been ruined, destroyed and killed off doesn't make me fell better about it.

Funny, because by this overreaction you'd think Kirsten Beyer had left Chakotay drowning his sorrows in the bottle at the end of Full Circle. Rather than pulling himself out of it, taking his life back into his own hands, and moving forward renewed, even able to reach out and help someone else in her time of need - which is what actually happened.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I still call it character destruction, portraying Chakotay as someone who drown his sorrows in alcohol.

But oh joy, oh joy, we have C/7 coming up to solve his problems!

 

[Thestral]

^^
I still call it character destruction, portraying Chakotay as someone who drown his sorrows in alcohol.

Again, you might, MIGHT, have a point if that's where the story ended.
And really, if you can't handle watching the downfall of a character, might I suggest you avoid fully 1/3 of William Shakespeare, including such classics as Romeo and Juliet, Julius Caesar, MacBeth, Hamlet, and Antony and Cleopatra?

But Chakotay's story doesn't end in the bottle. Chakotay, now, is not "someone who drowns his sorrows in alcohol." He's conquered that demon. He's slain the dragon. He's beaten the Catholic Priest to sink the basketball in the hoop.

And if you don't like seeing a protagonist struggle and then overcome the conflict, well, you'll have to avoid the vast majority of literature. Because "protagonist meets obstacle --> protagonist works to overcome obstacle --> obstactle is overcome" is pretty much the most basic plot outline there is.

You can call this what you like, but it's no more sensible than me saying "my mother is a fish." Mostly because neither of us are seven.

But oh joy, oh joy, we have C/7 coming up to solve his problems!

You're leaping to an unwarranted assumption based on not even a shred of direct evidence. There's absolutely no reason to assume Kirsten Beyer is going to link Chakotay and Seven romantically, just because they're being paired as characters in the same plotline.

And again, Chakotay's not going to Seven to help solve his problems. You're misreading or misinterpreting. Chakotay is going to Seven to help her.
Again.
Chakotay is going to Seven to help her.
Why?
Because she, like he, was very close to Kathy the J, and she, like he, is going through a difficult time. Said difficult time is made worse by the fallout from "Destiny" and from the Caeliar.

Where do you get "Chakotay and Seven are going to become lovers to magically solve his problems" from that?

 

[Lynx]

You're leaping to an unwarranted assumption based on not even a shred of direct evidence. There's absolutely no reason to assume Kirsten Beyer is going to link Chakotay and Seven romantically, just because they're being paired as characters in the same plotline.

And again, Chakotay's not going to Seven to help solve his problems. You're misreading or misinterpreting. Chakotay is going to Seven to help her.
Again.
Chakotay is going to Seven to help her.
Why?
Because she, like he, was very close to Kathy the J, and she, like he, is going through a difficult time. Said difficult time is made worse by the fallout from "Destiny" and from the Caeliar.

Where do you get "Chakotay and Seven are going to become lovers to magically solve his problems" from that?

I'm just putting 1+1 together and get 2.

OK, maybe it's just me being over-suspicious but I don't trust the people in charge. I don't like the way they are treating the Voyager characters and I don't like the scenario they have created after annihilating Janeway.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They thought it was a good idea because they're morons.

It's that simple.

Every bad idea the collective "they" had which they thought was good, but turned out to be bad is more evidence of their moroninity, the alternative was that this plot was designed to punish someone, either the actors or the characters for some damn slight, I don't know, but even for Hollywierds, that's crazy talk.

Morons or mad(wo)men?

Why chose just one description for the TPTB?

 

[Tachyon]

I actually liked how Chakotay was written in Full Circle. Beyer did a great job with him and Tom.

 

[Thestral]

I'm just putting 1+1 together and get 2.

OK, maybe it's just me being over-suspicious but I don't trust the people in charge. I don't like the way they are treating the Voyager characters and I don't like the scenario they have created after annihilating Janeway.

Well, at least you're willing to concede that you're overreacting.

I think these PTB are probably worthy of our trust, far more than the nincompoops who ran the actual show, just based on the fact that they actually care about these characters and write compelling stories for them - even the ones that aren't named Janeway, HoloDoc, or Seven of Nine.

Also, that word you're using, annihilate. You might wanna... rethink that word.

 

[Lynx]

I'm just putting 1+1 together and get 2.

OK, maybe it's just me being over-suspicious but I don't trust the people in charge. I don't like the way they are treating the Voyager characters and I don't like the scenario they have created after annihilating Janeway.

Well, at least you're willing to concede that you're overreacting.

I think these PTB are probably worthy of our trust, far more than the nincompoops who ran the actual show, just based on the fact that they actually care about these characters and write compelling stories for them - even the ones that aren't named Janeway, HoloDoc, or Seven of Nine.

Also, that word you're using, annihilate. You might wanna... rethink that word.

They care about the characters?

In that case, they have a very strange way of showing that.

What have they done so far? They have wiped out Janeway, the main character of the series, turned Chakotay into an alcoholic and are about to bring back a relationship which most of the fans of the show reacted badly to.

What have they done for the others? Kes and Neelix are still out of the picture, Tuvok too if I'm correct. That leaves us Tom, B'Elanna, Harry and The Doc. What have they done for them, except showing different aspects of their grief over Janeway?

 

[exodus]

I'm just putting 1+1 together and get 2.

OK, maybe it's just me being over-suspicious but I don't trust the people in charge. I don't like the way they are treating the Voyager characters and I don't like the scenario they have created after annihilating Janeway.

Well, at least you're willing to concede that you're overreacting.

I think these PTB are probably worthy of our trust, far more than the nincompoops who ran the actual show, just based on the fact that they actually care about these characters and write compelling stories for them - even the ones that aren't named Janeway, HoloDoc, or Seven of Nine.

Also, that word you're using, annihilate. You might wanna... rethink that word.

They care about the characters?

In that case, they have a very strange way of showing that.

What have they done so far? They have wiped out Janeway, the main character of the series, turned Chakotay into an alcoholic and are about to bring back a relationship which most of the fans of the show reacted badly to.

What have they done for the others? Kes and Neelix are still out of the picture, Tuvok too if I'm correct. That leaves us Tom, B'Elanna, Harry and The Doc. What have they done for them, except showing different aspects of their grief over Janeway?

That's called drama and really good ones get readers into the stories being told. You personally not liking what's being told/done doesn't negate that their are readers out there that do. This is another reason why books aren't considered canon, the characters all can become what anyone wants by putting pen to paper.

 

[Lynx]

^^
But is character destruction the only way to create drama?

Not to mention that some people might llike it but the way they have done it has also made many fans annoyed, angry and dissapointed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I remember, you weren't that happy over the way Jadzia Dax was treated in DS9.

What would you say if I got the rights to the Ds9 books and started to wipe out the main characters, replacing them with my own creations?

I do have a feeling that such an action would result in some criticizm from you.

 

[teya]

What have they done so far? They have wiped out Janeway, the main character of the series, turned Chakotay into an alcoholic and are about to bring back a relationship which most of the fans of the show reacted badly to.

You only got one of the three right--which isn't surprising since by your own admission, you haven't read the book.

Chakotay is not an alcoholic and there is no C/7 in "Full Circle."

 

[JustKate]

No, what you call "character distruction" isn't the only way to create drama, Lynx, but putting characters that viewers care for in jeopardy is a darn good way, and sometimes it's the best way. And if they are never really in jeopardy - if fans know for certain that they will always, always, always live to see another adventure, that nobody will ever leave the show for any reason - there is no jeopardy. None.

Edit: I haven't read the book in question, but I'd just like to chime in here with Teya to point out that drinking too much for a period of time, assuming that's what Chakotay does here, doesn't automatically make a person an alcoholic. If it did, there would be a lot more alcoholics around than there in fact are.

 

[exodus]

^^
But is character destruction the only way to create drama?

Not to mention that some people might llike it but the way they have done it has also made many fans annoyed, angry and dissapointed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I remember, you weren't that happy over the way Jadzia Dax was treated in DS9.

What would you say if I got the rights to the Ds9 books and started to wipe out the main characters, replacing them with my own creations?

I do have a feeling that such an action would result in some criticizm from you.

Nope not at all, it's why I don't read the books.

Plus, you're missing the point that by the start of DS9 s7, I was over the fact Jadzia died because loosing her created even more drama on the show. Is it the only way, no but it has proven in the past by many other shows that it can be successful. As the Jem Hadar put it: It is the way of things.

I also don't get upset by what you call "character destruction" because the stories are fiction and I've read enough to know nobody ever stays dead forever in fiction. Star Trek is nothing more than a thinking man's comic book.

 

[Thestral]

Not to mention that some people might llike it but the way they have done it has also made many fans annoyed, angry and dissapointed.

Perhaps, I'll admit that's a remote possibility. But many more are coming back refreshed, more curious, and more optimistic than ever before for the future of VOY storytelling.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I remember, you weren't that happy over the way Jadzia Dax was treated in DS9.

Dax fans are more irritated by the lack of development Jadzia got - much as Chakotay fans are irritated by his lack of development, and the disappointment with Jadzia's death is due to execution (pun intended) than the fact that she died. What Ezri and Chakotay are getting in the books, however, is magnificent (so far).

What would you say if I got the rights to the Ds9 books and started to wipe out the main characters, replacing them with my own creations?

I do have a feeling that such an action would result in some criticizm from you.

If well executed, unlikely. Fans of DS9:R are perfectly happy with having Vaughn, Prynn, Shar, Ro, Taran'atar, and many others added to the cast, replacing O'Brien, Worf, Sisko, Odo, and Garak in the main narrative. Because change happens and is a natural part of life. I love Ben Sisko, but I'm perfectly happy to have him remain on the sidelines for the forseeable future, making minor guest appearances. Worf's got a sweet gig as the first officer of Enterprise. Much like Tuvok, who has a great gig on Titan.

The criticism, you see, isn't in the creative decision but in the execution thereof. Performed well, even the most dissapointing, unhappy creative decision can make an excellent story. And without good execution, even the best creative decision can make a piss-poor story.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I can see that we totally disagree about how the different relaunches are handled and that's OK for me.

But I see no reason to read books where the main characters from the series are wiped out in one way or another, ruined and replaced with characters I have no interest at all in.

The reason for me to read the Voyager books is to read about the Voyager characters and their adventures, not to see them being ruined and dumped one by one. If I want stories about characters who weren't in any TV series, then I would go for the "New Frontier" books.

As for the DS9 relaunch, I like the fact that Ro Laren was brought back but I don't care at all for the other "newcomers".

As for Voyager, I prefer to write and read my own stories where Kes plays an important part, where Chakotay is astrong character, not a wimp and where Janeway is still alive and well.

 

[freak]

^^
I still call it character destruction, portraying Chakotay as someone who drown his sorrows in alcohol.

But oh joy, oh joy, we have C/7 coming up to solve his problems!

I am wondering..is this before or after the death of Janeway? If it's after, then I can see why he would drown his sorrows in alchohol..some people can't cope with some sorrows. I do think, however that it's part destruction on his character and also part stereotype for his characteras well. I'm not sure whether or not the author should have written this in the book but it does sound just a teeny bit interesting to read. I must get a copy of "Full Circle" and read it for myself to come up with my own conclusion/criticisms though.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Don't waste money on that book.

What I know, Chakotay starts drinking after Janeway is annihilated.

And then he seeks the company of Seven.

 

[Thestral]

Or, y'know, do read it and make your own judgments since it's getting really good ratings across the board.

But I see no reason to read books where the main characters from the series are wiped out in one way or another, ruined and replaced with characters I have no interest at all in.

And yet, at one time they were all new characters who you didn't have an interest in since they didn't exist. What makes these new characters any different than Seven of Nine, Icheb, Naomi Wildman? Serialized ongoing fiction, as with real life, involves change of characters as we adjust to new situations.

The reason for me to read the Voyager books is to read about the Voyager characters and their adventures, not to see them being ruined and dumped one by one.

The creators have decided that Voyager needs new crew, new characters to continue the story. This is an inherent part of the Voyager narrative, and it's one that should be brought to light. What's the first thing we see on Voyager, right in the first episode? Main characters, important parts of the Voyager crew, die. Where's the outcry for stories about Commander Cavit? Lieutenant Stadi? Unnamed Doctor? (For that matter, where's the sense of loss, but that's a different question) How about Seska? Important part of Voyager's first season, leaves the show - evolution of plot and character.

 

[Lynx]

^^
No, I have decided not to read the book.

I don't want to read about Janeway's death and the aftermath of that event and I don't want to support the current direction of the books with my hard-earned money or by contributing to the rise of the sale ratings.

As for new characters, I didn't care that much about Seven, Naomi and Icheb either. I qiúit watching when Kes was dumped, did the mistake of started watching again and got "Fury" as a "reward" for that. I'm not doing the same mistake again.

To be honest, Cavit, Stadi and Dr.Fitzgerald (the original Doctor) weren't main characters in the same way as neelix, Kes, Janeway and the others. They were more characters which were used to get the story started. Seska wasn't a main character either.

The current writers are in no way any creators of the show. As for their decision to keep the ship going with a new crew, it reminds me about those old rock bands who keeps touring under the name despite the fact that hardly anyone of the original or well-known members are left.

They should change the name of the ship with it's new crew to USS Fake or USS Fraud instead.