Chakotay as the Noble Savage
- Thread starter Zameaze
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HELL NO!
The next time somebody scripts a Chakotay they had better step up! Stereotypes are not only socially disgusting, they are BAD WRITING. These weren't the aliens-of-the-week. These were regular cast.
(To this day I have no idea how to write Chakotay. More detail? Or less?).
Teya I for one support your voice 100%. The world needs to know Native Americans better. For every bit of reading and research I've done into some notable histories, it has enriched my life deeply. There's a reason children like to play cowboys and Indians. They want to be Indians.
I've got students who think Native Americans give China some kind of prior claim to the US (along with Zheng He). They actually have very little interest in the diverse cultural history of Native Americans. And they really don't like it when I trace those nomadic routes back to their origins - in Africa!
Teya, yesterday -just yesterday - I fielded questions about Native American culture, to the best of my limited abilities, that yes indeed, NA's can speak English and wear clothes and go to school and get jobs, and no, they don't live like "primitives" all year long. It's really sad. But in their defense, they are extremely sheltered and "managed".
Minorities need every voice they can get. There are too many people in this world who would willingly steamroll them and expect a thank you.
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The thing is, other XOs didn't come off as weak and ineffectual. It seemed that the Captains actually listened to them. Chakotay was written weaker to make Janeway look stronger.
The problem was, when you write a person of color as weaker, you open things up to the Steppin' Fetchit stereotypes.
And as Triskellion notes, it also doesn't help the woman look stronger.
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Heh.
The closing credits of the film "Atanarjuat" (the first feature film made in a native North American language) feature shots of the cast during filming. It's a mythological tale set in the far north. In the filming shots, you see the sno-cats and the cast in jeans and flannel shirts. I chuckled at that because I know they did it just to show, "hey, folks, this wasn't a documentary!"
Exactly.
Going back to the "Well, I guess I truly am alone." comment from Scorpion. You've never seen nor heard Kirk, Picard or Sisko take a swipe at their OX for having a difference of opinion. They would consider it, discuss it and even find a happy medium for both sides if need be. Janeway always dismissed Chakotay outright. It's why many Trek fans have luke warm feeling about Janeway. Janeway made Chakotay look like he was unimportant.
It's all in how you look at it, I guess. Chakotay never seemed weak and ineffectual to me. I dunno, he just didn't. I have many problems with the writing, as you know, Teya (you may know this as well, Exodus), but I discern a difference between how he was written - that is, what the writers had the character do and say - and how the character came across. Maybe I just saw what I wanted to see, but I simply never saw a weak or ineffectual person.
It's a little bit like the TOS Uhura, actually. Lots of people criticize her character, and goodness knows the scripts she was given didn't give her many opportunities to come across as strong and dignified and smart. But Nichols managed most of the time to give Uhura those qualities anyway - that personality came through, or at least so it seemed to me, even in episodes (which was most of them, alas) where she didn't do much but man the switchboard, so to speak.
It's a little bit like the TOS Uhura, actually. Lots of people criticize her character, and goodness knows the scripts she was given didn't give her many opportunities to come across as strong and dignified and smart. But Nichols managed most of the time to give Uhura those qualities anyway - that personality came through, or at least so it seemed to me, even in episodes (which was most of them, alas) where she didn't do much but man the switchboard, so to speak.
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I thought we were talking about how he was written?
At least you are willing to openly admit it and that gives you points with me. It's a small step but a step forward none the less.
I find the most difficult thing when debating such topics dealing with race or culture on this board is the mentality of: If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen at all. Very few are ever willing or open minded enough to step out side themselves a walk in another shoes.
Well, it starts from the script. And there's not a whole hell of a lot anyone can do when they write a stereotype.
Of course, that's assuming you think I've got even a smidgen of a point on this...
Remember he look on Willard's face when Kirk demoted him and stole the Enterprise?
Besides, Neelix is a Captain who probably expects at least as much respect as Janeway get s on her rickety little barge, when he's taking his ship out for a spin with "friends".
Besides, Neelix is a Captain who probably expects at least as much respect as Janeway get s on her rickety little barge, when he's taking his ship out for a spin with "friends".
Preach it!
I really agree. I remember one go around on Chakotay that lasted for weeks, until suddenly a lightbulb went off in my opponent's head and she said, "Oh, you mean that in tribal culture, your tribe and your clan are as important as your individual identity?"
Now, I'd been repeating that verbatim for weeks--that by not giving Chakotay a tribe, TPTB made him unrecognizeable as an Indian to Indians. To the person I was debating, he was an Indian because he was noble, and ecological, and spiritual, and that was good enough for her, and therefore should have been good enough for me.
It didn't occur to her until about 20 pages into the discussion that maybe an Indian's perspective might have some legitimacy when discussing an Indian character.
My point exactly.
Preach it!
I really agree. I remember one go around on Chakotay that lasted for weeks, until suddenly a lightbulb went off in my opponent's head and she said, "Oh, you mean that in tribal culture, your tribe and your clan are as important as your individual identity?"
Now, I'd been repeating that verbatim for weeks--that by not giving Chakotay a tribe, TPTB made him unrecognizeable as an Indian to Indians. To the person I was debating, he was an Indian because he was noble, and ecological, and spiritual, and that was good enough for her, and therefore should have been good enough for me.
It didn't occur to her until about 20 pages into the discussion that maybe an Indian's perspective might have some legitimacy when discussing an Indian character.
My point exactly.
Preach it!
I really agree. I remember one go around on Chakotay that lasted for weeks, until suddenly a lightbulb went off in my opponent's head and she said, "Oh, you mean that in tribal culture, your tribe and your clan are as important as your individual identity?"
Now, I'd been repeating that verbatim for weeks--that by not giving Chakotay a tribe, TPTB made him unrecognizeable as an Indian to Indians. To the person I was debating, he was an Indian because he was noble, and ecological, and spiritual, and that was good enough for her, and therefore should have been good enough for me.
It didn't occur to her until about 20 pages into the discussion that maybe an Indian's perspective might have some legitimacy when discussing an Indian character.
Unfortunately, it seems that the only folks who can understand my point are those who also have walked in my shoes.
And on that note, I do give up.
If even some of the more reasonable people on the board can't see that perspective, then it's really hopeless.
So, if folks want to think of Chakotay as a noble and accurate view of a Native American, who am I to argue otherwise?
You are because you walk the walk & talk the talk.My point exactly.Preach it!
I really agree. I remember one go around on Chakotay that lasted for weeks, until suddenly a lightbulb went off in my opponent's head and she said, "Oh, you mean that in tribal culture, your tribe and your clan are as important as your individual identity?"
Now, I'd been repeating that verbatim for weeks--that by not giving Chakotay a tribe, TPTB made him unrecognizeable as an Indian to Indians. To the person I was debating, he was an Indian because he was noble, and ecological, and spiritual, and that was good enough for her, and therefore should have been good enough for me.
It didn't occur to her until about 20 pages into the discussion that maybe an Indian's perspective might have some legitimacy when discussing an Indian character.
Unfortunately, it seems that the only folks who can understand my point are those who also have walked in my shoes.
And on that note, I do give up.
If even some of the more reasonable people on the board can't see that perspective, then it's really hopeless.
So, if folks want to think of Chakotay as a noble and accurate view of a Native American, who am I to argue otherwise?
What you're trying to do here is educate.
Native American isn't just words on a screen to you, it's your race, your culture, it's your identity and a major part of who you are. A major part of what makes you, well you. It's not just and opinion, for you it's a fact of life.
I identify very much with that.
It's not your fault some don't wish to learn.
At least you are willing to openly admit it and that gives you points with me. It's a small step but a step forward none the less.
I find the most difficult thing when debating such topics dealing with race or culture on this board is the mentality of: If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen at all. Very few are ever willing or open minded enough to step out side themselves a walk in another shoes.
Thanks. I think...
But since I've attempted to take my own bias into account, I hope you can admit that you may have a bias, too? About what, I don't know, but you could, right?
Stepping away from Chakotay and looking at TOS Uhura (hope you don't mind another Trek example), here I think I have an insight that you don't have, simply because I am a woman, and because I became a teenager shortly after TOS ended, I remember those days very, very well. I don't know if there was any racism in the way Uhura was written - I don't think so, but hey, I could be wrong - but I can tell you there was for sure sexism. In a big way. And it's allllllll over those scripts, and not just involving the Uhura character, either.
But Uhura nonetheless came across almost all the time (with a yucky exception or two) as competent, professional, smart and strong. And I have to think that this was due mostly to Nichols, not the writers.
Of course you have - and more than a smidgen. Chakotay was mostly written as a stereotype...usually a positive stereotype, but as you and I have discussed before, a positive stereotype is still a stereotype and therefore ought to be avoided.
But while I agree that it does all start with the script, some elements of character can be overcome or mitigated by the actor involved. Nichols did somehow manage to overcome some of the material she was given - or so it seems to me. It would have been infinitely better if she hadn't had to, of course - but I still think she managed to a certain degree, and I think Beltran did too, though perhaps not as effectively. And I do think that needs to be considered when evaluating the character as a whole.
However, there is a big problem with the point that I'm trying to make, and that is that although judging a script is a highly individual thing, judging the overall effect of a character portrayal is even more problematic and idiosyncratic. There is almost nothing concret that you can point to and say, "There, you see? That proves my point. And so does that. And that. Now that part there - that doesn't." It's all in how a particular character strikes a particular viewer.
Well, this particular character never struck this particular viewer as weak or ineffectual. (He also, unfortunately, never struck this particular viewer as being all that Native American, either, unless TPTB had him do something uber-Indian, but so it goes.) So if it's any comfort to you, Teya, Chakotay never struck this particular middle-class white female viewer as Steppin' Fetchit in any way, shape or form. He had a lot of dignity and strength, Chakotay did. I wish this had been written into the script...but most of the time, it wasn't.
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^^If I do have bias it's because I'm part Native American, ethnocentric and I'd like to see that side of my culture represented properly. So this topic, as are most dealing with issues of race is very personal too me.
I believe in racial equality to the point I will fight and die for it.
That's truth.
I believe in racial equality to the point I will fight and die for it.
That's truth.
I was actually not talking about racial bias - there are other kinds of biases that can affect how a person judges a character. Forgive me if I seemed to be accusing you of racial bias, Exodus. That was most certainly not my intention. It's simply that just as I might have seen what I wanted to see, it's possible that you might have as well. That's all I meant.
No offense taken.
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