Celtic Command Crew?

[Kegg]

Kirk is definitively a Scottish word, but the surname is so common that he doesn't have to be of Scottish-descent, at least no more than 1/n-th on his father's side. I think some novels conjured for him a Native American heritage on his mother's side. McCoy again is a Scottish last name, with the same caveats. Scott, if I recall correctly, it's actually an Irish last name, identifying Scottish families living in Ireland. Grayson sounds English, but it's not the same as Celtic: the suffix -son sounds more Anglo-Saxon than Celtic, which means it is ultimately of German descent.

Wouldn't the average Briton be primarily, genetically, Celtic, however? Anglo-Saxons might have dictated the culture, but it would only overlay the Celtic genetic contribution.

The Celtic what?

Look, the only thing we can reasonably talk about is culture. I think one would have a hard time proving and determining any Celtic genes and whatever the heck that meant.

And culturally speaking, the English are not Celtic. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, they're Celtic, and some are Gaels to boot (not interchangeable, that).

and the language was eventually eliminated from the Anglo kingdoms

Not as well as you'd maybe think or I might have hoped, alas.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Well, it's disputed how much Brythonic and other Celtic languages influenced the development of English. I can't think offhand of any Celtic word, other than my middle or last names (and my last name could actually be Anglicized Spanish, instead of Welsh).

All I'm saying is that it's not at all certain whether the Celts were completely displaced by the Germanics in Britain, or whether the present population is an admixture of the two, plus Normans (and of course, plus the occasional refugee from continental Europe like Conrad or Prince Albert and the more numerous and more recent emigres from British colonies in Africa, Asia, and the Caribbean).

Sci--I just meant Briton as "inhabitant of the island Great Britain." Probably a better word for that, since Briton means something else as well.

 

[Filmakr1]

So umm, once again-- does anyone think Kirk could be of true Celtic descent?

Could Spock possibly of English or Germanic descent via his mom?

Any other inferences from canon or otherwise?

 

[Kegg]

^
Yes. It's a Scottish name and therefore quite possible.

Spock may be of English descent also, as Grayson is of English origin.

^Well, it's disputed how much Brythonic and other Celtic languages influenced the development of English.

At an educated guess: Not much?

'Educated' being twelve years being taught Irish, a Gaelic language, which has very little in common with English. It's only in the same ballpark in the sense they're fellow Indo-European languages. French, Spanish, just about any other West European language is closer than Irish. It's possible the non-Gaelic Celtic languages are closer to English but I know squat about them.

(and my last name could actually be Anglicized Spanish, instead of Welsh).

So that Slavic-sounding name you use that does my dyslexic head in isn't the real deal, eh?

All I'm saying is that it's not at all certain whether the Celts were completely displaced by the Germanics in Britain,

Oh, no argument there. My point is displaced is sort of irrelevant. They were either displaced or culturally assimilated, either way, they weren't Celts anymore. The Celts were defined like most cultural groups by heck, being a culture, no? Just as the Celts likely absorbed, for example, the pre-Celtic Irish people (responsible for the site at Newgrange among others).

 

[Myasishchev]

^Fair enough. I've just always found population movements sort of interesting.

Nope, Vladimir Myasishchev was just a Soviet aerospace designer with a neat-sounding name with a lot of Cyrllic letters that don't have direct equivalents in the Roman alphabet. I've used it for other purposes in the past, so I used it here. I can speak and read a very little Russian, and I'm taking a Russian jurisprudence course my law school is offering for some bizarre reason... starting Monday. (). But ethnically, I'm probably Irish and German and maybe Hispanic (i.e., from the Roman province of Hispania). Pretty boring, really.

The old lady isn't much for my proferred suggestion of a summer vaction in Petrograd, either.

It's cool to see someone who speaks Irish. Barely spoken anymore, as I understand it.

 

[Orcus]

...Celtic languages have been eliminated virtually everywhere...

Pardon? Apart from Irish and Scots Gaelic there is also Welsh/Cymraeg (argued to be the oldest Celtic language still spoken today) which is widely spoken in Wales/Cymru and Patagonia (Argentina). Breton is still spoken in parts of Brittany and Cornish has also had a recent renaissance, being spoken by an increasing number of people in Cornwall these days too...

The only one that seems to have died out altogether is Cumbric (Cumbria) but surviving examples are preserved in place names and the Cumbric counting system ("yan, tyan, tethera..."). However, it has also been postulated by linguists that the Cumbric language was more likely to have been Welsh - imported by Welsh migrants...

 

[Kegg]

It's cool to see someone who speaks Irish. Barely spoken anymore, as I understand it.

Oh I don't speak it. I was just taught it for twelve years. It's a mandatory course in schools here.

 

[Drob]

Dia duit Kegg
I haven't heard the crew ask 'an bhfuil cad agam dul go duit an leithreas' in any episodes yet

Yep, the early Celts built Newgrange, it was an old Ncc class design that crash landed in the Boyne, the saucer sections still poking above ground.


You have my vote on Scotty being of Scottish/Celtic origin but Kirk & co are pushing it a bit far, it depends on how many generations removed etc. The McCoy name in the show is about as mystic and Celtic as a McDonald's happy meal, it just sounds cool.

Regarding Spock, I don't think so, unless you count the leprechaun ears and the green blood... (it might have been something the writers had a McCoy joke lined up for).

I'm surprised Scotty didn't have a few lines with McCoy here and there in the shows (or movies) about their family names to add some heritage/background to the characters, anybody seen this type of stuff in early scripts?

Cheers

 

[Kegg]

Dia duit Kegg
I haven't heard the crew ask 'an bhfuil cad agam dul go duit an leithreas' in any episodes yet

Dia agus Muire dhuit!

Holy crap that takes me back.

I'm surprised Scotty didn't have a few lines with McCoy here and there in the shows (or movies) about their family names to add some heritage/background to the characters, anybody seen this type of stuff in early scripts?

Well, we never got around to even stating Uhura's first name, or the anecdote about it being based on uhuru, the swahili word for freedom... so I'm not surprised that's not in there. We might obsess over the little details but I doubt the crew of the Enterprise - or the writers - did.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, I believe "Kirk" is a corruption of the Native American name "Kirok," fairly common in Iowa.

 

[Myasishchev]

...Celtic languages have been eliminated virtually everywhere...

Pardon? Apart from Irish and Scots Gaelic there is also Welsh/Cymraeg (argued to be the oldest Celtic language still spoken today) which is widely spoken in Wales/Cymru and Patagonia (Argentina). Breton is still spoken in parts of Brittany and Cornish has also had a recent renaissance, being spoken by an increasing number of people in Cornwall these days too...

The only one that seems to have died out altogether is Cumbric (Cumbria) but surviving examples are preserved in place names and the Cumbric counting system ("yan, tyan, tethera..."). However, it has also been postulated by linguists that the Cumbric language was more likely to have been Welsh - imported by Welsh migrants...

Well, I may have to concede I know less about it than I thought I did.

To clarify, in these mentioned places, is a Celtic language is learned as a first language?

As for Patagonia--that's weird, but neat.

 

[Orcus]

...Celtic languages have been eliminated virtually everywhere...

Pardon? Apart from Irish and Scots Gaelic there is also Welsh/Cymraeg (argued to be the oldest Celtic language still spoken today) which is widely spoken in Wales/Cymru and Patagonia (Argentina). Breton is still spoken in parts of Brittany and Cornish has also had a recent renaissance, being spoken by an increasing number of people in Cornwall these days too...

The only one that seems to have died out altogether is Cumbric (Cumbria) but surviving examples are preserved in place names and the Cumbric counting system ("yan, tyan, tethera..."). However, it has also been postulated by linguists that the Cumbric language was more likely to have been Welsh - imported by Welsh migrants...

Well, I may have to concede I know less about it than I thought I did.

To clarify, in these mentioned places, is a Celtic language is learned as a first language?

As for Patagonia--that's weird, but neat.

Yes, I understand that Patagonia was originally a colony settled by Welsh-speaking migrants. With the only alternative being to learn Spanish or other indigenous language they chose to preserve their own language and culture...

And, yes, I believe that in some isolated parts of Wales there are children brought up speaking Welsh before English. I'm not sure about other parts of the UK/Ireland but it could certainly be the case in Ireland and in Shetland/Orkney/Western Isles too...

 

[Rhionnach]

Cymraec wasn't imported to Cumbria by Welsh speakers, it is decended from the Brythonic which was spoken in Cumbria and in my area, Strathclyde, in Scotland. Brythonic was widely spoken before the influx of the Dalriadan Scots from Ireland.

 

[MANT!]

Celtic Command Crew?..

The following would be a better representation..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLxLmFhROqY

 

[Orcus]

Cymraec wasn't imported to Cumbria by Welsh speakers, it is decended from the Brythonic which was spoken in Cumbria and in my area, Strathclyde, in Scotland. Brythonic was widely spoken before the influx of the Dalriadan Scots from Ireland.

Are you sure? It's widely debated by both camps: some liguists believe it evolved naturally - others believe it was imported. I believe that many argue in favour of the "Welsh origin" theory due to the many similarities between Cumbric and Cymraeg. It could also be due to a 'watering down' of any pre-existing Brythonic language by Welsh-speaking off-comers.

Who can say for certain?

Unfortunately not enough has survived of what later came to be known as Cumbric or, indeed even the Brythonic languages, to be absolutely sure.

Even modern Welsh/Cymraeg (thought to be the oldest still-spoken form of the Celtic languages) doesn't hold that many clues, apparently...