I mean the fact that in all three there's a mystery to solve where one person is kind of the focal point and everyone has to work out what the mystery is. Each person brings something different to the table, according to their expertise.
Cause and Effect
- Thread starter Tribble Threat
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I mean the fact that in all three there's a mystery to solve where one person is kind of the focal point and everyone has to work out what the mystery is. Each person brings something different to the table, according to their expertise.
Having an episode start with the Enterprise blow up blew my childhood mind on first viewing and since then it has always stayed with me as one of my favorites
What Cause and Effect tells me is that Data isn’t always right and Picard is a stupidly indecisive leader. That’s about it. With Schisms nobody’s reaction to the abduction is particularly novel to them. What I wonder most about C&E is if the Bozeman has only ever experienced the crash once and it’s only the Enterprise in a loop. It would make the Bozeman’s crew seem way less dumb if that was the case.
I absolutely loved it. It's one of my faves from TNG. The whole premise is just incredibly clever and brilliantly directed by Jonathan Frakes. That opening sequence I remember thinking, WTF??! Great episode definately one of my top five.
Speaking of the Bozeman:
We all know it turns up again in ST:FC. Admiral Hayes hails her and the Defiant, and somebody replies "Acknowledged." Who was it?
I always assumed it was Worf, as I find it unlikely that Kelsey Grammer would do a cameo appearance of ONE WORD, and not even onscreen at that. But others have said it was Bateson. Anybody know who's right?
(IMDB says it's Bateson, but they are unreliable and often inaccurate.)
We all know it turns up again in ST:FC. Admiral Hayes hails her and the Defiant, and somebody replies "Acknowledged." Who was it?
I always assumed it was Worf, as I find it unlikely that Kelsey Grammer would do a cameo appearance of ONE WORD, and not even onscreen at that. But others have said it was Bateson. Anybody know who's right?
(IMDB says it's Bateson, but they are unreliable and often inaccurate.)
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Only once? Probably not, as we saw the crash happen several times to them, too.
But the loop for them would be only about fifty seconds long. No time to pay attention yet to overlapping back-of-the-skull noises or deja vus, as opposed to the solid day or so of hero experiences there.
Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn’t think that Starfleet would put the Bozeman back on active duty, even if the ship wasn’t that old due to the time loop. It’s still 70+ years out of date. I would guess the Bozeman heard in FC was a newer ship with the same name. It’s not like we saw a Soyuz class ship in the battle; the closest was a CGI Miranda with Sisko’s Saratoga registry number.
You’re assuming they are in the loop. They’re just going through a portal. They may have only experienced this once with the Enterprise being the one to replay it over and over. If I keep going back in time to relive the same moment with you you are not going back in time with me. You’ve only had that experience once.
Yeah, but they are in the anomaly with them, an anomaly that resets, & they are exhibiting a temporal effect, that ripped them out of their time, way more so than the ENT-D. What's the likelihood that they aren't also experiencing some of the same type of effect?
I mean there's no real specifics to say either way, but I kind of lean toward thinking they must be having a similar experience as the D's crew, & I'm not alone, as Picard states a similar assumption in the episode. That said, there's lots of other reasons to assume they aren't dumber than Picard's people. The events & timing & state of affairs aboard that ship might not favor the same kind of good fortune.
My assumption has been that the Bozeman's loop starts at the time they jump into the future, leaving them barely any time to react to their immediate crisis, much less come up with a way to deal with the root cause.
Indeed, it's a mercy if they don't remember previous loops.
Indeed, it's a mercy if they don't remember previous loops.
Plenty likely given we know nothing about how the anomaly worked. Frankly, this comes down to personal preference. It’s as random as the conclusion of the mystery box. Sure Picard makes a guess, but unless you’re accepting what he said as the projected voice of the writers who have a set idea in their heads his guess is as good as ours.
Not really. If the Bozeman is in the loop it could have gone back in time three days as well to whatever the outer pull of the portal is. Why would their loop only start when they cross through it? There’s nothing to back that up.
But in the end none of this makes any sense either way. Time isn’t really repeating. Real time is going forward outside the bubble. The Bozeman isn’t destroyed by the hit, so are there a bunch of Bozemans floating around? Does the Bozeman get rebooted and disappear just because the Enterprise explodes? Why would an explosion trigger anything like what we’re seeing? And they get all their systems back after they solve the puzzle? Why? Physics based on the actions of a ship crew seems really anthropocentric. And, seriously, why does the engine getting nicked turn off all safety measures on a galaxy class ship and make it explode? Considering there’s zero emotional meat to the story all we have is these silly technical aspects and they don’t really add up.
The E-D was experiencing system failures even before the collision, so it doesn't seem that implausible that a catastrophic hit to the nacelle (calling it a 'nick' seems to be disregarding the evidence) could result in a warp core breach, though it is a bit disappointing that every protective measure the E-D has against such an occurrence makes no difference. Then again, we see the same problem in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and GEN, so...it seems to be an ongoing issue that the Galaxy-class doesn't have sufficient safeguards against a warp core breach.
Between the collision and the E-D's explosion, I figure the Bozeman was destroyed as well.
As for the ship's systems coming back online afterward, we could argue that once the E-D catches up to objective time, the factors that caused the malfunction are no longer present.
Between the collision and the E-D's explosion, I figure the Bozeman was destroyed as well.
As for the ship's systems coming back online afterward, we could argue that once the E-D catches up to objective time, the factors that caused the malfunction are no longer present.
Apparently it would.
Releasing the air moves the hero ship forward. Applying the tractor pushes the other ship back and to the side. The collision is avoided in the end by the hero ship dodging forward; if she were locked to her opponent with the tractor beam, there apparently would be no dodging. So a pretty good call from the VFX folks.
Yup. They experience at least two versions of it: the one where they collide, and the one where they don't. There's no logical reason to assume this would be limited to two when we can see it's not limited to one or zero.
Well, there is, and you said it best:
And the other side of the weird passage from the 2270s to the 2360s would probably qualify as "outside". I mean, it's supposedly the big kaboom, combined with the local conditions, that flings the heroes backward. I could see it reaching a fellow starship a few hundred meters away; it's more difficult to see it reaching a fellow starship ninety years away.
Why wouldn't she be? Both ships get hit in the nacelle, as they conveniently have nacelles positioned at exactly the right places. It takes a few seconds for the E-D to blow up after the collision; the same might well apply to the Bozeman. So, even if she is blown up - are there lots of debris fields floating around?
And there very well might be. After all, the two ships are unlikely to meet at the location of a time tunnel. This would be an astronomical coincidence, as the collision calls for extreme precision in positioning, while the heroes never do any steering or homing or positioning of any sort.
More probably, the very presence of the E-D within the zone of magic opens a portal from which the Bozeman plops out. And the heroes enter the magic cloud at different positions every time, so they miss their own floating corpses, and those of Bateson's crew, from the previous loops.
Probably. After all, she's just a lump of matter at a distance from the kaboom, exactly like the E-D. It's just a matter of the distance being right, and it may well be.
Why not? It's not a particularly unusual Trek event. They are in a magic cloud where explosions send stuff back in time. Hardly a case of lazy writing or anything.
The systems supposedly went down because this portal-from-the-past thing was happening. It's not happening any longer. Why should the heroes not get their ride back shipshape just like they always do after battles and other hiccups? Simply being inside the Typhon Expanse doesn't hurt the ship, or any ship. Only the act of triggering the timerift does, or at least that's the only time within each loop when things do go haywire.
Why seriously? Why should the ship be able to survive a collision? We have no reason to think this would be in the design specs. Starships are supposed to be vulnerable to dangers, so that we can have adventures. And a collision is a nice built-in seam in plot armor, not affecting those other plots where the ship is hit by death rays or grabbing beams or subspace tsunamis or the like.
Timo Saloniemi
I don't agree with your take on the trajectory of the tractor beam, which is up and to the side, not back, but it doesn't matter because in the end it's the bad writing of Picard sitting and asking for options as the Bozeman rolls slowly toward them that kills them. Here's the real question to ask in all of this. If the script writers had switched the two options and had the tractor beam be the right one would it matter to the plot? If they had put any number of physical solutions would it have mattered to the plot? No. They are interchangeable. And yet, that decision is the center piece of the story. That's the real problem.
Meaningless. Plenty of time travel adventures have multiple outcomes, it doesn't mean they happened twice. It means on the second trip back the timeline was changed.
Because there's no physical damage seen and we know from the Reliant and the Constellation that you can blow whole holes in a nacelle and a ship won't explode.
Huh?
Ok, you're being satirical. I get it.
The portal is still there after the Bozeman goes through. That's why they're stuck when it approaches. And why wouldn't it be there after the Bozeman goes through? It's not there for them. There's no intelligence behind it. That it would just go away at all after the aversion is odd, and that it would wait until the ships miss each other is odder. There's no getting around that.
It wasn't a collision. It was a nick of the hull. And see above about previous ships with more damage. And in any case, the stupid ship loses all its safety measures when ever it needs them rendering them completely useless. It's a constant dramatic crutch on late era TNG and beyond. If this had happened once on a galaxy class anywhere they'd have grounded the whole lot of them until it was fixed. 1000 people dying, including children because of a design flaw experienced multiple times? That's a political disaster in a society that cares about lives.
I'm pretty sure we've only seen a handful of occasions where starships sustained direct damage to their nacelles with shields down, and in all cases the best that one could hope for was that their warp drive would be seriously compromised. The worst-case is, of course, demonstrated by this episode.
We clearly see the E-D sustain catastrophic damage to its starboard nacelle (at minimum they were likely to need drydock repairs to restore full functionality), so please stop referring to it as a 'nick',
You may want to rewatch the footage of the impact at 50 seconds in here:
We clearly see the E-D sustain catastrophic damage to its starboard nacelle (at minimum they were likely to need drydock repairs to restore full functionality), so please stop referring to it as a 'nick',
You may want to rewatch the footage of the impact at 50 seconds in here:
It is a nick. In fact, technically, the Bozeman never even touches the Enterprise because they’re filmed in separate composited layers. On screen the most it looks like the Bozeman merely grazes the bottom of her engine against the top of the Enterprise’s. Just because the aftermath is the whole freaking engine exploding doesn’t mean there was a major impact. And again, the Reliant and the Constellation and even the Vico all had way worse damage without the ship exploding.
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When you ignore that there’s no precedent for this kind of catastrophe based on an engine injury and ignore the meat of the point I’m making with the filming angle then, you’re right, there’s nothing else to say. Have a nice evening.
Forget the nacelles. What about the core ejection system on the Enterprise-D? That thing never works. It's the most important safety system on a starship, and the difference between life and death for the crew. For it to be non-functional would be like having a skyscraper with a sprinkler that doesn't go off when there's a fire.
Seriously, whoever designed the ejection system deserves to be thrown out of an airlock.
Seriously, whoever designed the ejection system deserves to be thrown out of an airlock.
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