CAST FOR THE HOBBIT ANNOUNCED
- Thread starter Candlelight
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Checkmate
Commodore
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
We need more white people playing black, asian, and latino characters. Especially when the color of their skin is a major aspect of those characters. Brad Pitt needs to play Martin Luthor King Jr., I say.
Or does equal opportunity only work one way?
We need more white people playing black, asian, and latino characters. Especially when the color of their skin is a major aspect of those characters. Brad Pitt needs to play Martin Luthor King Jr., I say.
Or does equal opportunity only work one way?
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
Exactly. I'm still waiting for a 1930s German propaganda film to be unearthed, showing a bunch of Black Nazis beating up Asian jews. THAT'll show 'em.
Mark
Exactly. I'm still waiting for a 1930s German propaganda film to be unearthed, showing a bunch of Black Nazis beating up Asian jews. THAT'll show 'em.
Mark
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
There is a very good reason, which is that these are not just abstract characters, they're job opportunities for real live human beings. Excluding people from employment because of their race is not a good thing. If this were a radio adaptation or an animated film, there'd be no problem with making the characters all one ethnic type, because one could still cast voice actors without regard to race. (For instance, Phil LaMarr has not only played black characters like Green Lantern John Stewart and Hermes Conrad, but white characters like Gambit and Aquaman and Asian characters like Samurai Jack and the Earth King.) But a live action production is a different matter.
There is a very good reason, which is that these are not just abstract characters, they're job opportunities for real live human beings. Excluding people from employment because of their race is not a good thing. If this were a radio adaptation or an animated film, there'd be no problem with making the characters all one ethnic type, because one could still cast voice actors without regard to race. (For instance, Phil LaMarr has not only played black characters like Green Lantern John Stewart and Hermes Conrad, but white characters like Gambit and Aquaman and Asian characters like Samurai Jack and the Earth King.) But a live action production is a different matter.
Aren't the Orcs in The Hobbit smaller cousins of the Uruk-Hai?
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
But if it doesn't make sense for the story, why should the story be changed just to satisfy a quota?
But if it doesn't make sense for the story, why should the story be changed just to satisfy a quota?
Re: Sylvester McCoy Confirms Hobbit Role
Very small. So small in fact, that he barely exists as a mentioned person (Gandalf describes him as a "cousin"). Technically speaking, he's only a character in The Lord of The Rings and The Silmarillion. But given how they're padding these films with additional storylines from the Appendices and such, there should be plenty for him to do.
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
I didn't say anything about a "quota," damn it. Don't twist my words. I'm talking about giving everyone a fair chance to compete. I can't imagine anyone reasonable objecting to giving people a fair chance.
And why shouldn't it make sense for the story? And if it doesn't, why shouldn't the story be changed? If a story was written decades ago and reflects the racism of that era, how can it be wrong to correct that mistake in a new version? The whole point of doing an adaptation is to adapt, to change the way a story is told to suit a new medium or context.
After all, Middle Earth isn't real history. It's something some guy made up. If we were talking about a movie set in medieval Norway, say, I wouldn't expect to see Ernie Hudson or Zhang Ziyi in the cast. But Middle Earth's an imaginary place populated by imaginary species. They could look however the director wants them to look. Even if you follow the conceit that hobbits and humans represent European types, why can't the dwarves and elves be more exotic? After all, they're not human, so why should they be subject to human patterns of phenotype inheritance? If a solid grey tomcat and a brown and orange mackerel tabby can be littermates, why couldn't a pale, blond-haired elf have a dark-complexioned sibling, or one with golden skin and epicanthic folds?
I didn't say anything about a "quota," damn it. Don't twist my words. I'm talking about giving everyone a fair chance to compete. I can't imagine anyone reasonable objecting to giving people a fair chance.
And why shouldn't it make sense for the story? And if it doesn't, why shouldn't the story be changed? If a story was written decades ago and reflects the racism of that era, how can it be wrong to correct that mistake in a new version? The whole point of doing an adaptation is to adapt, to change the way a story is told to suit a new medium or context.
After all, Middle Earth isn't real history. It's something some guy made up. If we were talking about a movie set in medieval Norway, say, I wouldn't expect to see Ernie Hudson or Zhang Ziyi in the cast. But Middle Earth's an imaginary place populated by imaginary species. They could look however the director wants them to look. Even if you follow the conceit that hobbits and humans represent European types, why can't the dwarves and elves be more exotic? After all, they're not human, so why should they be subject to human patterns of phenotype inheritance? If a solid grey tomcat and a brown and orange mackerel tabby can be littermates, why couldn't a pale, blond-haired elf have a dark-complexioned sibling, or one with golden skin and epicanthic folds?
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
Because those exotic cousins don't appear in the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Simple as that. A while ago somebody complained that there are way too few women in these books. And so? Just take it the way it is or leave it.
What's next? Must Legolas be a man in LotR? Why can't Aragorn be a gay king? It's an adaption after all.
Because those exotic cousins don't appear in the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Simple as that. A while ago somebody complained that there are way too few women in these books. And so? Just take it the way it is or leave it.
What's next? Must Legolas be a man in LotR? Why can't Aragorn be a gay king? It's an adaption after all.
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
Middle-earth, or at least the parts of it occupied by the vast majority of Tolkien's stories, is meant to be a prehistoric Western Europe, before the Great Flood came along and changed the landscape. That's why it's so whitewashed. It's not meant to be another world; it's meant to be our world in ancient times, before the Elves and other magical creatures left the world to Men.
Middle-earth, or at least the parts of it occupied by the vast majority of Tolkien's stories, is meant to be a prehistoric Western Europe, before the Great Flood came along and changed the landscape. That's why it's so whitewashed. It's not meant to be another world; it's meant to be our world in ancient times, before the Elves and other magical creatures left the world to Men.
Tolkien wrote of Hobbits who were "browner of skin". He called them Harfoot Hobbits, and according to the wiki article, they were the most common of Hobbits.
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
This really depends how one defines racism.
Yeah, Middle Earth isn't real. And although it's obstensibly adherently to a vaguely medieval sense of place, it has tobacco and tomatoes and potatoes.
But it mostly adheres to the idea that there are areas of the world largely inhabited by people of one complexion and other areas largely inhabited by people of another complexion, which was not particularly uncommon in the period of time the fantasy is inspired by.
I wouldn't therefore call Tolkein racist based on this observation alone; although there's certainly no sensitivity to the subject in his works.
Look. I don't like the idea of whitewashing Ursula Le Guin on film (either Earthsea adaption is reputedly notorious for this, throwing Caucasians all over a series that didn't have any) but I'd say the same of Tolkein's works.
It'd be like making Gandalf chew gum rather then smoke tobacco. Whether or not it's something Americans are more comfortable with doesn't necessarily mean it's an improvement.
That said, yeah, I can live with Gandalf chewing gum or a more ethnically diverse cast, it just wouldn't necessarily be the call I'd make.
Elves are pretty exotic.
They're Finnish.
Non-Indo-European langugage speakers, that's pretty far out.
I'm not saying all Elven actors need to be Finnish, but it doesn't hurt.
Making Elves into non-Finns is pretty common in other fantasy titles. Whenever Sam Raimi's Warcraft movie rolls around, there will be no rational reason to restrict Night Elf casting to Caucasians - those folks are fricking purple, for god's sake.
Tolkein not so much.
This really depends how one defines racism.
Yeah, Middle Earth isn't real. And although it's obstensibly adherently to a vaguely medieval sense of place, it has tobacco and tomatoes and potatoes.
But it mostly adheres to the idea that there are areas of the world largely inhabited by people of one complexion and other areas largely inhabited by people of another complexion, which was not particularly uncommon in the period of time the fantasy is inspired by.
I wouldn't therefore call Tolkein racist based on this observation alone; although there's certainly no sensitivity to the subject in his works.
Look. I don't like the idea of whitewashing Ursula Le Guin on film (either Earthsea adaption is reputedly notorious for this, throwing Caucasians all over a series that didn't have any) but I'd say the same of Tolkein's works.
It'd be like making Gandalf chew gum rather then smoke tobacco. Whether or not it's something Americans are more comfortable with doesn't necessarily mean it's an improvement.
That said, yeah, I can live with Gandalf chewing gum or a more ethnically diverse cast, it just wouldn't necessarily be the call I'd make.
Elves are pretty exotic.
They're Finnish.
Non-Indo-European langugage speakers, that's pretty far out.
I'm not saying all Elven actors need to be Finnish, but it doesn't hurt.
Making Elves into non-Finns is pretty common in other fantasy titles. Whenever Sam Raimi's Warcraft movie rolls around, there will be no rational reason to restrict Night Elf casting to Caucasians - those folks are fricking purple, for god's sake.
Tolkein not so much.
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
In the case of LOTR and the Hobbit, there are swarthy Hobbits.
In the case of LOTR and the Hobbit, there are swarthy Hobbits.
Yes, in the books. We are not talking about the books. We are talking about motion pictures that are adapted from the books. Why is it so hard for people to understand that an adaptation is not supposed to be an exact, slavish copy? There's no point in doing a separate version of a story if you're not going to change anything, not going to bring any fresh angles or interpretations to the work.
Even if you tried to make it as faithful as possible, a movie would still be unable to avoid making some changes from the book. It can't validly be treated as the same reality; it must be accepted as a separate, alternative reality. So it follows logically that it can be different in a variety of ways. The movie Spider-Man has organic webbing instead of mechanical devices. The various movie and television incarnations of Sherlock Holmes have generally faced Moriarty far more often than the literary version. And so on.
So arguing against something in the film by citing the way it was done in the book just doesn't cut it. They're not supposed to be identical. When you're making a movie based on a book, the book should be your starting point, not your outer limit. You should try to capture the important aspects of the book, but otherwise make the decisions that work best for the film as a film, as a distinct creation in its own right.
A brother can't even get a break in fiction...
Re: Casting for Middle-Earth: non-whites can totally audition!
Why is it when talking about "non traditional casting" for fictional characters someone always counters with a white actor cast as a real life non-white person (Usually MLK)?
@ Christopher: If you want to beat up on ethnocentrism in British/New Zealish fantasy, I think Harry Potter's a much better target. The population of Asia dwarfs that of the British Isles by how many thousands, and yet we never get the barest mention of what Asian wizards think of the Voldemort situation? Hell, are their Asian wizards, or is Cho unique because she's half-white and both her parents live in England or some such? And why couldn't Hermione have been of Pakistani descent? Say what you will about Lord of the Rings, it's supposed to be regressive and culturally narrow-minded. Whereas Rowling pats herself on the back for making a good guy be gay, even though he has exactly no healthy romantic relationships in his life that we know of, and she couldn't even be arsed to mention his homosexuality in the books.
You do realize that King wasn't related to Lex Luthor, right?
Checkmate said:
You do realize that King wasn't related to Lex Luthor, right?
See, all you're doing is making me picture Marlon Wayans as Legolas.
