I haven't seen this. Did they have to explain away the death of Lynne Thigpen, or is her character not a factor in this?
Carmen Sandiego (Netflix)
- Thread starter Nerroth
- Start date
It's a different continuity -- that was a live-action game show where Carmen was the antagonist, this is an animated adventure series where Carmen is the antihero. But there is a character based on Thigpen's Chief (played by Star Trek: Lower Decks' Dawnn Lewis), as well as a pair of characters loosely based on the heroes of the first Carmen Sandiego animated series (although there they were hunting Carmen and here they're her partners in crime-for-noble-purposes). It's a new take mixing elements from previous incarnations and adding its own.
Thank you both.
I'm 2 episodes in, they are clearly going for a "classic Carmen San Diego" look for her mother. Makes me wonder if they will find a way to have her mom be the previous Carmen. Just have to explain the shared name, since she got it from hat manufacturer. (Perhaps her mom did the same thing, could it be the same hat, temporarily owned by the Accountant?)
Next up is New Orleans, we love to watch stuff set here, and make fun of what they get wrong.
Edit: New Orleans nitpicks:
They reversed the names of gumbo and jambalaya when showing the dishes.
The crawfish dish was treated like cocktail shrimp. You can't peel crawfish ahead of time and leave the tail on, it's impossible.
There appears to be underground tunnels under the mansion, which is directly adjacent to a swamp. This is impossible, the water table is basically ground level.
The architecture in the French Quarter was passable. Should have had Agent Devineaux get stuck behind a mule drawn carriage though.
Next up is New Orleans, we love to watch stuff set here, and make fun of what they get wrong.
Edit: New Orleans nitpicks:
They reversed the names of gumbo and jambalaya when showing the dishes.
The crawfish dish was treated like cocktail shrimp. You can't peel crawfish ahead of time and leave the tail on, it's impossible.
There appears to be underground tunnels under the mansion, which is directly adjacent to a swamp. This is impossible, the water table is basically ground level.
The architecture in the French Quarter was passable. Should have had Agent Devineaux get stuck behind a mule drawn carriage though.
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Well, damn, I'm already done with the third season...because somehow I never heard that the third season was only five episodes! Fortunately, Netflix tweeted today that there will be a fourth season and "soon." Looks like they're following the BoJack Horseman and other shows of spiting up a full season into two shorter seasons. Very frustrating but at least we know more is coming.
As for the abbreviated season itself, I really enjoyed the mask theme. Halloween, Day of the Dead, not Mardi Gras (because of the wrong time of the year), and Guy Fawkes Day. We got most of the reoccurring operatives back (except on particular one for a clear reason) and I particularly enjoyed the Paper Star/Tigress team-up (how has that one not happened sooner?!).
More details behind the spoiler code...
As for the abbreviated season itself, I really enjoyed the mask theme. Halloween, Day of the Dead, not Mardi Gras (because of the wrong time of the year), and Guy Fawkes Day. We got most of the reoccurring operatives back (except on particular one for a clear reason) and I particularly enjoyed the Paper Star/Tigress team-up (how has that one not happened sooner?!).
More details behind the spoiler code...
While I'm not surprised we didn't get more of Carmen's search for her mother beyond the first episode, it's still a little disappointing if only because I wanted more answers now! I was fine with it coming up at the end of the season, much like the previous two seasons, but that didn't happen because of the abbreviated season. More hurry up and wait. Bah!
That said, we did get one wonderful family reunion: Shadow-san unexpectedly bumped into his brother, HIdeo, in Venice. Considering I was just thinking about a potential reunion between the two of them prior to the episode, it was good to see this happen sooner than expected. Even better, Shadow-san was afforded the opportunity to directly prove to Hideo of Shadow-san's turn of heart and road toward redemption. Not only did Hideo believe it this time around, he further encouraged Shadow-san to keep at his work with Carmen before returning home.
The other thing that surprised me this season was how Roundabout was exposed and captured so soon (if only to be freed by VILE right away). Considering how the second season ended, it seemed that he was going to be a permanent member of the VILE faculty for the foreseeable future, which worked pretty well considering he was so highly positioned in MI6. Instead, Carmen Sandiego flushed out the mole faster than George Smiley did! Even though Roundabout is back with VILE, I imagine his position as a faculty member has been nulled and voided. Which leaves the question, what happens to him now? And not just him, but also Neal the Eel. As proven with Gray, VILE looks unkindly to capture even if they're able to free them right away. Does that mean they'll both get the brain zap?
Speaking of Gray, looks like The Chief is ready to make her move on Gray, despite falsely suspecting that he's an active ally of Carmen. It's really remarkable how ACME keeps suspecting the absolute worst, is proven wrong, and keeps doing it. But at least Chase Devineaux is finally coming around, even if it meant that Julia Argent had to step out of the picture for it to happen. I initially expected that Julia would return when she would accidentally encounter Roundabout while she was studying at whatever prestigious university she decided to go to. I imagine something similar will still happen, but it's still a shame to have less of her now because she's one of my favorite characters.
That said, we did get one wonderful family reunion: Shadow-san unexpectedly bumped into his brother, HIdeo, in Venice. Considering I was just thinking about a potential reunion between the two of them prior to the episode, it was good to see this happen sooner than expected. Even better, Shadow-san was afforded the opportunity to directly prove to Hideo of Shadow-san's turn of heart and road toward redemption. Not only did Hideo believe it this time around, he further encouraged Shadow-san to keep at his work with Carmen before returning home.
The other thing that surprised me this season was how Roundabout was exposed and captured so soon (if only to be freed by VILE right away). Considering how the second season ended, it seemed that he was going to be a permanent member of the VILE faculty for the foreseeable future, which worked pretty well considering he was so highly positioned in MI6. Instead, Carmen Sandiego flushed out the mole faster than George Smiley did! Even though Roundabout is back with VILE, I imagine his position as a faculty member has been nulled and voided. Which leaves the question, what happens to him now? And not just him, but also Neal the Eel. As proven with Gray, VILE looks unkindly to capture even if they're able to free them right away. Does that mean they'll both get the brain zap?
Speaking of Gray, looks like The Chief is ready to make her move on Gray, despite falsely suspecting that he's an active ally of Carmen. It's really remarkable how ACME keeps suspecting the absolute worst, is proven wrong, and keeps doing it. But at least Chase Devineaux is finally coming around, even if it meant that Julia Argent had to step out of the picture for it to happen. I initially expected that Julia would return when she would accidentally encounter Roundabout while she was studying at whatever prestigious university she decided to go to. I imagine something similar will still happen, but it's still a shame to have less of her now because she's one of my favorite characters.
Oooh...I really like the idea! They've been deliberately obscuring her face so there's something to that idea. Hopefully we'll learn sooner than later.
Speaking of the PBS game show, I just recently stumbled across this completely delightful Rockapella + Greg Lee virtual reunion talk from earlier this year:
As for the series itself, there are a number of eps on YouTube, but it seems like all the uploads with fairly solid 480p video have awful sound, while the ones with pretty good sound have terrible image quality! Is one or two (or three or four) uploads with decent A and V too much to ask?!
Netflix announces that the fourth season will air January 15th and be the final season.
The series had its moments and I am always in favor of more educational content, though I will say they hobbled the show from the very onset in ways that made it hard for the show to gain the kind of traction that the 90s series did.
There is a long respect in South America for honorable desperados in the same way the English speaking world long held respect for robin hood figures. They went too far from her core concept in the direction of turning Carmen into a modern cookie cutter superhero and away from her base concept as an honorable bad assed thief. There was a middle ground to be had between the 90s series and where they ended up, but they didn't hit the target and it threw off the balance between ACME and VILE for Carmen to be in a third position that was effectively ACME's old position.
That being said the series had its moments. Its animated game game was fun even if too limited with its possible routes. Its animated homage video to the 90s game show song was the high point of the series.
The series had its moments and I am always in favor of more educational content, though I will say they hobbled the show from the very onset in ways that made it hard for the show to gain the kind of traction that the 90s series did.
There is a long respect in South America for honorable desperados in the same way the English speaking world long held respect for robin hood figures. They went too far from her core concept in the direction of turning Carmen into a modern cookie cutter superhero and away from her base concept as an honorable bad assed thief. There was a middle ground to be had between the 90s series and where they ended up, but they didn't hit the target and it threw off the balance between ACME and VILE for Carmen to be in a third position that was effectively ACME's old position.
That being said the series had its moments. Its animated game game was fun even if too limited with its possible routes. Its animated homage video to the 90s game show song was the high point of the series.
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Damn, this really sucks especially considering season three was so short. 
On the plus side, based on the official account's response to one tweet, the show appears to be ending on its own terms so there's that.
On the plus side, based on the official account's response to one tweet, the show appears to be ending on its own terms so there's that.
The final season is out now and...
What a lovely and wonderful ending.
I was genuinely worried during the final episodes that the show would end with Carmen Sandiego brainwashed as one of VILE's top operatives and faculty, thus stepping into the classic role we previously knew her as. I knew that was a rather dark ending for a light-hearted children's education show, but it still felt like a real possibility for a moment or two, even with the obvious set-ups for restoring her memories.
Before heading into that endgame, I loved the globetrotting ancient treasure hunt connected to VILE's long history. I'm also a sucker for breadcrumb capers such as that, even if they don't make sense from a origination standpoint (much like all ancient treasure maps like that).
I will say between the interest in exploring VILE's hidden past, the relatively quick wrap-up of the endgame, and barely anytime for Carmen to search for her mother, it does feel like the show ended a little prematurely. As in the showrunners had more story ideas and plotlines to explore (for instance, they only got the chance to identify only one of the original five) when Netflix decided to the ended the show, but at least Netflix gave them enough episodes to end the show on its own terms. A real pity because every episode of this show has been such a joy and I'm sad it's already over.
Fingers crossed that some day it'll get revived...
I was genuinely worried during the final episodes that the show would end with Carmen Sandiego brainwashed as one of VILE's top operatives and faculty, thus stepping into the classic role we previously knew her as. I knew that was a rather dark ending for a light-hearted children's education show, but it still felt like a real possibility for a moment or two, even with the obvious set-ups for restoring her memories.
Before heading into that endgame, I loved the globetrotting ancient treasure hunt connected to VILE's long history. I'm also a sucker for breadcrumb capers such as that, even if they don't make sense from a origination standpoint (much like all ancient treasure maps like that).
I will say between the interest in exploring VILE's hidden past, the relatively quick wrap-up of the endgame, and barely anytime for Carmen to search for her mother, it does feel like the show ended a little prematurely. As in the showrunners had more story ideas and plotlines to explore (for instance, they only got the chance to identify only one of the original five) when Netflix decided to the ended the show, but at least Netflix gave them enough episodes to end the show on its own terms. A real pity because every episode of this show has been such a joy and I'm sad it's already over.
Fingers crossed that some day it'll get revived...
It feels like they learned somewhere in the middle of writing this season that it would be the last. They crammed in at least two seasons worth of material into the last season. Still the last season came off fairly well. It was a better season then the last two though could have used two more episodes to rap up some things.
It was a solid though not Earth shattering send off to the show. I knew Carmen's big switch wouldn't stick because it was forced on her and she had no ethics as in zero.
This was classic Carmen and classic Maelstrom for that matter. She wanted to prove she was the greatest thief of all time, but outside that had a pretty big heart and wouldn't broke anyone trying to kill. I was hoping after I heard that season four would be the last that Carmen would reunite with her old gang/classmates and that happened which was nice. The 90s series song/call back was great and that series Carmen stole a Stradivarius too. Graham ended the series more or less where 90s Carmen was as the master thief with a heart of gold.
What didn't happen that I was hoping for was Carmen (of her own mind) and her classmates overthrow the VILE faculty and create a reformed VILE that doesn't try to kill or injure and perhaps with a Robin Hood flare. I also thought Carmen and classmates as a team had much more personality and were much more fun to watch bouncing off one another then Carmen and ACME/player.
It was a solid though not Earth shattering send off to the show. I knew Carmen's big switch wouldn't stick because it was forced on her and she had no ethics as in zero.
This was classic Carmen and classic Maelstrom for that matter. She wanted to prove she was the greatest thief of all time, but outside that had a pretty big heart and wouldn't broke anyone trying to kill. I was hoping after I heard that season four would be the last that Carmen would reunite with her old gang/classmates and that happened which was nice. The 90s series song/call back was great and that series Carmen stole a Stradivarius too. Graham ended the series more or less where 90s Carmen was as the master thief with a heart of gold.
What didn't happen that I was hoping for was Carmen (of her own mind) and her classmates overthrow the VILE faculty and create a reformed VILE that doesn't try to kill or injure and perhaps with a Robin Hood flare. I also thought Carmen and classmates as a team had much more personality and were much more fun to watch bouncing off one another then Carmen and ACME/player.
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This was a really good show overall. The action was the best I've seen in animation since The Legend of Korra, though the animation style was closer to Samurai Jack. There was some really thrilling fight choreography and "stunt" work. The writing and character work were excellent too. I particularly like how Devineaux, who started out so damn annoying and arrogant, really evolved and matured by the end. It was cool to see all the shifting allegiances and relationships as things evolved.
I'm a little surprised by how marginalized Zack and Ivy were at the end, not really playing a role in Carmen's salvation despite being her partners for so long. But then, I never much liked them, so I'm not too upset.
I also didn't really need the tag scene at the very end. It would've been beautiful if it had ended just before then, with the opening of the door.
I'm a little surprised by how marginalized Zack and Ivy were at the end, not really playing a role in Carmen's salvation despite being her partners for so long. But then, I never much liked them, so I'm not too upset.
I also didn't really need the tag scene at the very end. It would've been beautiful if it had ended just before then, with the opening of the door.
The animation and fight choreography did deserve kudos.
I will say the show didn't take off like it should have and I believe could have given the quality of the animation and the writing. It felt like the production was torn between a straight kids show with very simple messages and a more complex Avatar style kids and all ages show. They should have settled that out with the Netflix people and their own licensor at the start and I believe gone with the second option.
The show had a heavy tinge of Trump era politics attached and was clearly trying to stand as a clear refutation of the concept of the criminal Latino. On that score they were far too needy and unsubtle given Carmen is already an iconic super thief in the public consciousness and managed to get Carmen to her 'heroic end state' way too quickly as in by the third episode of the show they had Carmen the heroic crime fighter. Her story and character development had nowhere to go by that point.
If I had a recommendation it would have been to slow down Carmen's anti-criminal 'awakening'. She grows up her entire childhood and most of her teenage years among murderous criminals who teach and indoctrinate her on being a criminal, but she turns against being a thief completely on a dime when exposed to the outside society for two seconds? It was not only highly unrealistic for someone so much inside one societal bubble to change all her views once outside it the quick shift before Carmen had actually been a criminal left her with nothing to redeem or grow towards in the show over four seasons.
They could have kept their origin story for her and started her with VILE and over the course of four seasons had her slowly change her views and evolve into an ACME detective or overthrowing the faculty and leading a reformed version of VILE with her class.
She should have had real stark divided loyalties between her VILE family and her non-criminal family in the show. That could have and should have been built into the show and yet I didn't feel such divided loyalties at all. Carmen was given such a high level of unearned moral clarity about VILE and stealing so quickly that it robbed the show of several seasons of drama that should have been built into their story.
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Hm. I think you might be overstating that. After all, there's nothing new about portraying Carmen as Latina. It's implicit in her name, and she was played by Rita Moreno in the first animated series in the '90s.
Besides, Carmen is a character in the tradition of "gentleman" thieves like Robin Hood, Arsene Lupin (and his Japanese namesake), Catwoman, Danny Ocean, David Niven in The Pink Panther, Cary Grant in It Takes a Thief, etc. -- the kind of elegant, sophisticated thief who's a romantic, aspirational figure, defined by cleverness and ultra-competence and with a basic nobility and compassion that makes them more antihero than villain. That's worlds apart from the Trumpian racist stereotype of Latinos as filthy, murderous thugs. So it's hard to see it as an intentional commentary on that.
I think they did okay with her character. Character development isn't just about how a person's own character changes, but about how their relationships with other characters evolve, or how their range of relationships reveal the different facets of their character. The show did some terrific work in that regard -- Shadowsan's arc from evident traitor to loyal supporter, Coach Brunt's complex blend of brutal villainy and genuine love for Carmen as a surrogate daughter, Carmen's search for her parents, etc. I also liked how the show allowed her to be flawed -- she made things harder for herself through her reluctance to trust ACME and tell them the truth, though her history makes that reluctance very understandable.
There was a letter writing campaign by white leftists against Carmen as a racist stereotype in her early days as a character and her studio almost changed her racial heritage to white Caucasian. Hispanics never saw her as a stereotype, a few very vocal people were against any depiction of a Hispanic thief.
My point was I think this show wanted to give her the appearance of as you said a Robin Hood like anti-hero. That didn't quite hit the mark. Robin Hood was willing to steal from corrupt and unjust, but lawful authority. I actually suspect they would have likely evolved in more of an anti-hero direction if they had 2-3 more seasons, because her story didn't have many places to go.
I would be interesting in finding out the goods on what happened behind the scenes with the studio politics. Season three especially was cut down and in no way fit the tone they were setting up with season 2.
I don't disagree in terms of the interpersonal relationships. I think some of Carmen's most interesting and strongest ones were actually with her classmates, though those were under developed.
You have to keep in mind I am not saying the show was bad, it felt as though it had enough going for it that it came close to the level where it could have been a break out hit, but didn't quite manage it. ACME really suffered the most from Carmen having the core protagonist team of the show as essentially they were winning the battles for them.
It would have probably been better if Carmen herself didn't have had a clear team. She would have been a lone wolf operator with Zack and Ivy on ACME from the start. That would have enabled team ups with ACME or even her old classmates against other threats.
I wasn't a fan of the use of brain washing/memory wipes. I felt Crackle for instance should have stayed with VILE throughout the show though still at times acted against the faculty. As a character he was more dynamic in season four then he had been in any other season.
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As I said, Robin Hood is just one example of the wider gentleman/phantom thief trope. There are many ways it can manifest, but one of its standard aspects is that the phantom thief is from the upper classes of society, worlds apart from any street thug, and they steal for the sake of the challenge or for some higher principle, rather than doing it for survival.
And I was speaking of Carmen Sandiego in all her portrayals, not just this one. Whichever side she's been on, she's always fit the romanticized fantasy image of the classy, noble thief, the trickster figure who breaks the rules and takes what they want but isn't in it to hurt people. I mean, the iconic red hat and trenchcoat and lush, flowing hair all paint a picture of elegance and sophistication.
I did feel that making Carmen the protagonist was kind of strange. Traditionally she's a woman of mystery that the protagonists are hunting. Making her the viewpoint character took that away, though they replaced it by making her a mystery to herself in terms of her origins. Still, they managed to make her story effective. By the last season or two, I'd largely forgotten my early issues with the show's approach.
I will give credit for the final season though being too rushed also being much more dynamic then earlier seasons. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to denigrate what the show accomplished, I am trying to come up with why a series with so much going for it didn't take off like it should have.
Crackle in season 4 was allowed to be a dynamic character not just a one note villain or a mind wiped hero. He acted in his own interests at times with the VILE faculty and against them.
His arc was the sort of thing the show had been missing. Carmen's turn while fun to watch and provided nice call backs to video game and 1990s animated Carmen went too far in taking away her agency. I am only a fan of mental manipulation stories when they say something about the person being manipulated.
If they just kept it to erasing her memories that would have been more interesting as we would have had a Carmen that could have been. But, the getting rid of her empathy addition threw her into something close to the murderous cackling villain territory which in the past was seen only in a few video games. Most past depictions have her as a super thief doing it not for wealth (instead for the mental gymnastics), but also as a character with a taboo against killing.
The fact she spent over six months as a thief running around without human empathy should have had profound impacts on her, but given the storyline was compressed and dropped at the very end we weren't given much of a window into its impact if any on her.
His arc was the sort of thing the show had been missing. Carmen's turn while fun to watch and provided nice call backs to video game and 1990s animated Carmen went too far in taking away her agency. I am only a fan of mental manipulation stories when they say something about the person being manipulated.
If they just kept it to erasing her memories that would have been more interesting as we would have had a Carmen that could have been. But, the getting rid of her empathy addition threw her into something close to the murderous cackling villain territory which in the past was seen only in a few video games. Most past depictions have her as a super thief doing it not for wealth (instead for the mental gymnastics), but also as a character with a taboo against killing.
The fact she spent over six months as a thief running around without human empathy should have had profound impacts on her, but given the storyline was compressed and dropped at the very end we weren't given much of a window into its impact if any on her.
My point in terms of the whole issue of Carmen as the protagonist was they were too needy in selling her as the clear point of view character for what is right and just rather then allowing her to be wrong or at least slowly evolve towards what is just. The biggest thing holding back the show was them not allowing Carmen to be a more dynamic main character which her background as someone raised by, trained by and indoctrinated by openly violent thieves should have allowed for.
When writing Carmen's character if they wanted her on a heroes journey I feel they should have looked at Zuko from Avatar as someone with a really vile (pardon the pun) family and really divided about how he feels about them on a slow journey away from them and their legacy with fits, starts and backslides. I am not telling you not to be happy with what was given, but I am looking at what could have made the show reach critical mass something that it didn't quite manage to do unlike Avatar.
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