Cardassians/ Damar and everyone around him

[Nerys Ghemor]

And yet I also believe it is the individual who makes his or her own choices.

Tekeny Ghemor, for instance, was raised around the same propaganda as everyone else. When he went to Bajor, he was only 18--still practically a boy. Yet when he saw the carnage at the Kiessa Monastery, when he realized what he had taken part in, he was horrified and it changed him.

And that's what's so compelling about the Cardassians...some do become subsumed in the state and its twisted ideology. Yet there are individuals who, despite being subjected to the same things, rise above all of that. And that is really very inspiring to see, and what makes me see the Cardassians as having a side that is all about hope.

 

[TerokNor]

Yes, one is responsible for what one does. However I think knowing the background of someone, can lead to understand the motives better, but that is no excuse of course.

I once worked in a psychiatry and their was a guy, who raped someone. I thought I could NEVER interact with him like with a human being, because what he did, made me so angry and afraid. However when I got to know him, I could not only see the guy who raped someone in him, he was also nice and funny and oh so clumsy, he regretted what he did, he paid for it, he was a rape victim himself (he got raped and violated over years by his parents) and mentally ill,... I never would excuse what he did, but I could accept him as a human being nontheless, as I could see what drove him to that crime.
I know that is a sensitive topic. But I think when someone finds the strengh to see their faults and to regret their faults and to take on the responsibility for it... that earns a second chance, also when whatever crime was commited stays terrible nontheless.

You know what would have been a nice scene.... Ghemor meeting Damar (would he have taken on the responsibility for what he did, you think?) after the war, if they both would have lived to see the end of the war.


TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

That sounds something like Dukat--charming but evil. I hope that person stayed locked up, though...it's one thing to forgive a person who has done a thing like that, and another thing to let them loose on society. In my opinion if someone is truly sorry, they will also understand the need to take their punishment (as long as the punishment is not done in a cruel, vindictive manner).

 

[TerokNor]

Oh no, he was nothing like Dukat...more like a confused, mislead boy, in the body of a man, who never had much possibility to grow in his mind.

By the way..punishment...what were punishments in the Cardassian military for insubordination, besides demotion? Or is that the only punishment that there is? I mean we have seen Dukat being demoted and Damar got demoted for a day after the bar fight. How would a disziplinary hearing, how Weyoun called it, be like? I never experienced military, so I wonder what does a commander do, to rain in his soldiers, should they missbehave.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I imagine that some people were sent back to Cardassia, tried, and executed. I don't think it was like a Klingon ship where you'd be killed where you stood, but I do think insubordination tended to mean death in Cardassian culture, or life imprisonment in a labor camp.

(As to why Dukat didn't do that...well, I think his need to imagine himself as this benevolent father type may have played into it.)

Oh, and in real-life militaries, death would NOT be the punishment.

 

[TerokNor]

Hmm....I have tought about this...I think, that would be a bit strict even for Cardassians. I mean if it is a real big insubordination...yeah, ok... but also for smallish things like that bar fight (does that count as insubordination anyway, cause there was no order involved?)?

I looked up what the penalty in todays military is...they have things like well..demotion, confinded to quarters for 1 day to 3 weeks, being not allowed to visit certain places for fun, being not allowed having visitors, isolation, prison, getting less money, getting a reprimant in their file, a small one is only known to the soldier and the superior, but a bigger reprimant gets made puplic for all soldiers on the same or on an higher level...thats must be quite ashaming, standing there and getting reprimanted in front of everybody. And another punishment is to have to leave the military. I can imagine that those things would also be done in cardassian military and maybe also torture as a punishment, till the soldier sees his mistakes?
The labor camp maybe for those who do big things or repeat insubordination all the time and seem not to learn and death only for the worst disobidience.

But I do can imagine Dukat as quite a "gentle" commander, yeah, the term "benevolent father type" fits him well, in the meaning that he would like to be seen that way.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, the thing is that willful disobedience towards a superior officer in my opinion would be seen by Cardassian eyes as disobedience to the state, perhaps even treason. That's why I do think a commander would reserve the right--and in some cases even be required--to send a disobedient soldier back to Cardassia for trial and execution (or life in a labor camp). Given the way we've seen Cardassians treat other crimes (not to mention the way the Obsidian Order silences people or makes them disappear), I think it's quite possible under a regime like that one.

(Torture is also quite possible for "lesser" crimes.)

And obviously the way the Cardassian military works is not human at all...I never thought it would be.

 

[TerokNor]

Just wondring, what would be your background story for Damar? Like why would he be on such a broken down freighter and not some "better ship" when he seemed to be a competent officer?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Most likely he got himself in trouble because of his loud mouth. He's not exactly the most circumspect of Cardassians.

 

[TerokNor]

He is not? Now thats news! But yes, thats probably the most likley backgroundstory. I´ve read that in stories. Another possibility I read, was that he got betrayed and thats how he ended up there.
However Id also go for the first thing, that he brought it up to himself and also I don´t think he would have been elite anyway and the great posts probably go to the elite.
However "getting in trouble because of his loud mouth" wouldn´t that fall under indubordination or do I define insubordination wrongly?
Like that one scene were he practically shouts at Dukats back, that Ziyal would not know what it means to be Cardassian or to be Dukats daughter. Dukat acts meriely angry and Damar seems to back off (even I wonder... when Dukat looks after him with that glare, if he already suspected that Damars attitute might somehow lead to disaster (for him)? Would a different commanding officer have Damar be executed for shouting at him?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, insubordination is indeed one way to get in trouble with a loud mouth, but not the only way. I also think that a lack of sophistication in relationships with others would be enough to become an outsider in Cardassian society even without actually defying one's superiors. Or blurting out something in public that should've stayed quiet.

And I would think there are some commanding officers that would have their subordinates tortured or executed. Dukat didn't because I think he imagines himself as a benevolent and merciful man (in the sense of Comitus in Gladiator--remember when he cries out as Maximus dies by his hand, "AM I NOT MERCIFUL?"), plus I also think Dukat in that case knew that too much attention to the fact that he had a half-Bajoran daughter would weaken his standing, so he was not necessarily in a strong position to punish Damar for that.

 

[TerokNor]

Yeah, even I think in that scene Dukat would have loved to punish Damar for what he said and how he said it.

What deeper family background would you give him? Family status, parents, siblings, their careers, still alive?, realtionships to them, attitutes of them, education/ school/ childhood...you know, all that stuff.

TerokNor

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I do not agree with you, that it was a good idea to kill Damar off, Withers. Personally I would have liked to see him as the leader of Cardassia after the war.

I like the idea that on post-war Cardassia, Damar would be regarded as a great martyr and Dukat would be regarded as a traitor. Nobody would know that Dukat was responsible for both Damar being in a position of power, and giving him a kick in the ass to rebel. Dukat made Damar.

 

[TerokNor]

I don´t think I agree, that Dukat made Damar. He made parts, yes and he certainly helped him to find the courage again after the talk they had...but it all the characters and their destinies are woven together. Damar also made himself and got made by others...all the characters influenced each other.

I just finished reading "A Stich in Time"....certainly quite interessting to read, especially how Garak got trained and how he coped with what was left of cardassia after the war. And I felt so sorry for him, when he was left behind on Terok Nor.
If there would have been a book written about the character of Damar...what you think would have stood inside there? And if the authors would have decidet to not have him killed, maybe only greatly wounded or so, how would he have coped with seeing After War Cardassia as it is described in a Stich of Time?
And how would the..can you call it friedship (?) between Garak and him would have developed. Would Ziyals deaths still stand between them? Would Damar eventually had apolozised...if one can apolozise for murder? Would Garak have forgiven?

TerokNor

 

[TerokNor]

Hmmm... if you would imagine Damar as a child and youth in school and on the Military academy, how would you imagine his behaviour towards the teachers/classmates, grades and other activities?

I already have a picture in mind (for a story), but would like to get more views on how others would magine him, so that I stay true to character.

Thanks.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's always hard to say, because a lot of behavior on Cardassia can't express itself the same way it would on Earth--this is a regime I think would have no problem arresting children, taking them out of their homes, and such with little to no provocation.

 

[TerokNor]

Well I agree, even I see it not as strict as you, but still strict enough. So you say its hard to say, which means not impossibel to say *g*...would you count him then more to the children that smoothly go the way and doing well, that obiedneitn going the way, but doing not so well(grade like), that shows some difficult attitutes, gets some punishments, but doing still well, that shows some difficult attitute, gets some punishments and not doing well?

I have a mixture of these in mind.
As a young child more the dreamy, curious one, not doing so well in the grades. As an older child the obidient one, doing better in this grades, but not as well as his brother and sister, so still displeasing to his father. As a young teen...here I am not sure yet, but maybe starting to show a bit of the attitute we see on him in the show, like questining things, or bulling others, getting already a bit more aggressive. What you think?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

What if his grades and academic abilities were average, but his father wanted him to become something like an archon or an inquisitor? Damar isn't stupid by any means (I mean, look at the strategies he's come up with--while drunk, sometimes!), but perhaps his particular strengths did not lend themselves towards the field his father wanted him to be in?

 

[TerokNor]

That sounds like an idea Like it! Especially because his father will be "only" averange, so he might want for his children to become someting "better". And the older son and younger daughter manage that.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think Damar has a different kind of intelligence than "book-smarts." And there are many kinds of intelligence, all valuable, but if you're being measured only according to grades, those talents won't always be recognized.