Cardassians/ Damar and everyone around him

[TerokNor]

Thanks. Wasn´t I creative? But still have to get used to the nick, had so many during the years, my very first nick being Gul Damar. *g*

Anyway, someone who agrees with me, that Damar really did not seem very confident first we saw him, but by the time he was for some months with Dukat that changed.
And with Damar being quite young, enthusiastic for fighting and patrotic, he would have been the best target to pick for Dukat (well he had not so many to choose from anyway), cause, Dukat, being intelligent, knew that this man he could easily form into what he needed (an admiring, loyal, obidient soldier) and still having a quite refreshing (because of his direktness and how did Withers say..sass) soldier at hand.
By the way, have you finished with your thinking yet, Withers? Just curious, what the result is.
And now *embarressed* I have to say, that I cannot place Macet.... in what episode was she? What would have been if she had been Damars CO?

Oh and I still wonder....what I asked earlier (and a bit more)...if Dukat and Damar both would have survived the war and met again, what would have been?
Would Damar still be loyal to him or finally start to see also his mistakes?
And how would Dukat have reacted hearing of the rebellion?
And when Dukat would have survived, but not Damar, how would Damars death effected him?
And when Damar had survived, but not Dukat, how would his mentors death affected him? Would it have affected him at all after he developed the way he did?
And how might Garak and Kira have reacted to his death, after the battle was won?
Was it hard for Garak as in the end he seemed sure, that Damar was the right Cardassian for leading a new Cardassia? Was Kira maybe even a little ..hmm..sad too?
Or was it for her a justice thing, because of Ziyal?
And the Federation...were it bad news for them too? Had they too hoped he would have been the one who´d lead Cardassia into a different, for the Federation more likeable, direction? And the Cardassian people?

TerokNor

 

[DevilEyes]

And there I think you've hit the nail on the head TerokNor (nice username by the way).

Damar always seems to me to be a young inexperienced officer whose lack of confidence in himself and his deep patriotism led him to be easily manipulated by others. For example Damar has a refreshingly open approach to Kira Nerys and Tora Ziyal during Return to Grace in which he treats them as friends and allies, teaching Ziyal hand to hand combat and sharing a joke with Kira regarding Klingon technology.

Now, Damar at this point is a newly minted Glinn who has not served in the guard for long. So it would be quite natural for him to take his lead from his commanding officer which means that after months of listening to Dukat bemoaning the ingratitude of the Bajorans he develops a unpleasant racism towards the former subjects of the Union.

So what about Rusot? He was as hostile towards Kira as possible, and obviously hated Bajorans or at least Bajoran Resistance to an insane level, since he wasn't able to put it aside while Kira was helping the Cardassian Resistance. Was Dukat's influence to blame for that as well? And that's the kind of a guy who was an old comrade and friend of Damar. Dukat's influence on Damar probably made things worse, but I find it hard to believe that Damar would've been all open-minded and unprejudiced without Dukat. It's not like Dukat would've been the only bad influence out there in an organization like the Cardassian military, or Cardassian society in general.

Thanks. Wasn´t I creative? But still have to get used to the nick, had so many during the years, my very first nick being Gul Damar. *g*

Anyway, someone who agrees with me, that Damar really did not seem very confident first we saw him, but by the time he was for some months with Dukat that changed.
And with Damar being quite young, enthusiastic for fighting and patrotic, he would have been the best target to pick for Dukat (well he had not so many to choose from anyway), cause, Dukat, being intelligent, knew that this man he could easily form into what he needed (an admiring, loyal, obidient soldier) and still having a quite refreshing (because of his direktness and how did Withers say..sass) soldier at hand.
By the way, have you finished with your thinking yet, Withers? Just curious, what the result is.
And now *embarressed* I have to say, that I cannot place Macet.... in what episode was she? What would have been if she had been Damars CO?

Macet was a 'he'. He was a Cardassian gul played by Marc Alaimo in TNG "The Wounded", the episode that introduced the Cardassians (unfortunately, with much uglier uniforms, which were never to be seen again after this episode, and were replaced in later TNG episodes by the sexier uniforms we know from DS9). "The Wounded" is like DS9 before DS9: Cardassians, Alaimo playing a Cardassian, political intrigue, a morally ambiguous Starfleet officer, a pivotal role for O'Brien).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I have to say, that I cannot place Macet.... in what episode was she? What would have been if she had been Damars CO?

Macet was a 'he'. He was a Cardassian gul played by Marc Alaimo in TNG "The Wounded", the episode that introduced the Cardassians.

Is it possible, TerokNor, you meant "Ocett"?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And there I think you've hit the nail on the head TerokNor (nice username by the way).

Damar always seems to me to be a young inexperienced officer whose lack of confidence in himself and his deep patriotism led him to be easily manipulated by others. For example Damar has a refreshingly open approach to Kira Nerys and Tora Ziyal during Return to Grace in which he treats them as friends and allies, teaching Ziyal hand to hand combat and sharing a joke with Kira regarding Klingon technology.

Now, Damar at this point is a newly minted Glinn who has not served in the guard for long. So it would be quite natural for him to take his lead from his commanding officer which means that after months of listening to Dukat bemoaning the ingratitude of the Bajorans he develops a unpleasant racism towards the former subjects of the Union.

So what about Rusot? He was as hostile towards Kira as possible, and obviously hated Bajorans or at least Bajoran Resistance to an insane level, since he wasn't able to put it aside while Kira was helping the Cardassian Resistance. Was Dukat's influence to blame for that as well? And that's the kind of a guy who was an old comrade and friend of Damar. Dukat's influence on Damar probably made things worse, but I find it hard to believe that Damar would've been all open-minded and unprejudiced without Dukat. It's not like Dukat would've been the only bad influence out there in an organization like the Cardassian military, or Cardassian society in general.

I definitely don't think the only bad influence is Dukat, not by any means. There are many. But the interesting thing was that we actually had a substantial number of counterexamples (not just a few).

 

[TerokNor]

Oh...hehe...well Macet, Ocett ...doesn´t it sound all the same.
Anyway, I am not sure I remember him...even I remember the episode. The one were the young bajoran dies, while bringing the cardassian dessident (but that one was no Gul) to somewhere? Wait...theres was some other cardassian speaking with Picard, before the mission quite started. That one? I think I need to rewatch that episode. Gladly my flatmate owns all of TNG, have to asked her, if she might borrow me that disc.

And yes, Dukat was one bad influence, not the only one, just one. But on top of the others (like the cardassian society in general) it made Damar hate more... and the fight with the Bird of Prey brought him more confidence and following this more open aggression and arrogance (which does not mean he had not had those characteristics before, but it seems to me they grew stronger). I always had the feeling he did feel quite sure with Dukat in his back.. sort of. After all he viewd him as a strong and great leader. And like noted before Dukat seems to shield him somewhat from Weyoun now and than (even we still haven´t discussed, if that was only because he wanted to show dominance over Weyoun or if he did care about his soldier).

And Rusot.... he was not very likable. Maybe Damar was the bad influence on him, with always telling him for hours how he hated Kira?
Anyway, yes he might be like a lot of soldiers were, but well..than Damar was just a little bit different from the other soldiers. :P Not much maybe, but a bit more... well someone who has the potential to look behind things, even he choosed not too for many episodes, however Rosot seems someone absolutly blind. Damar seems someone with half an open eye, that he closed for some time and then opend it again and opend it more and more. Know what I mean?

TerokNor

 

[TerokNor]

Oh... just saw you made a link to Macet. That was the episode with the Starfleet captain running crazy, not with the bajoran girl. Which one was that?
Anyway I only remember the look on the Cardies face when that warship was destroyed. Really have to rewatch that one it seems.

TerokNor

 

[DevilEyes]

Oh... just saw you made a link to Macet. That was the episode with the Starfleet captain running crazy, not with the bajoran girl. Which one was that?

Season 7 "Lower Decks".

Speaking of which, how many TNG episodes featured Cardassians?

The Wounded (Gul Macet, Glinn Daro, Glinn Telle)
Ensign Ro (no important Cardie characters, some gul who speaks to Picard from his ship)
Chain of Command (Gul Madred, Gul Lemec, a few others)
The Chase (Gul Ocett)
Lower Decks (Joret Dal, the dissident Sito Jaxa was helping)
Journey's End (Gul Evek, and a few extras)
Preemptive Strike (same)

There was also a Cardassian starfleet officer in an alternate universein Parallels. Did I miss any?

 

[TerokNor]

Yes, these are all episodes with Cardassians in TNG. Memory Alpha says the same.

Rewatched the episode with Macet. Yeah, he surly would have had better influences on Damar, more open-minded and reasonable and still strict and with authority.
However I think he would not have become a hero under his comand, as he would have walked a more even line with him and not up and down and up and down down down to finally up again. All of the pain and mistakes were important.
By the way pain... when we saw that character handele pain, he was either quite composed (in fron of others) or drunk. In what other ways would you think, would a Cardassian handle pain? I mean, would it be in character for example to have a Cardassian crying, maybe even in front of a friend, hugging/ comforting, sitting depressed in a quarter.....?

TerokNor

 

[Thor Damar]

^ Ah, but we did. Damar wasn't an alcoholic just because he liked kanar, there was a guilt and (I believe) massive self loathing that drive Damar to drink.

Plus there was the little issue of Garak and his implant...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

In what other ways would you think, would a Cardassian handle pain? I mean, would it be in character for example to have a Cardassian crying, maybe even in front of a friend, hugging/ comforting, sitting depressed in a quarter.....?

TerokNor

Personally, I think that mourning for family is culturally more like you see in the Middle East--more open displays of grief for both men and women alike. They don't let foreigners see this, because of how their funerals are closed to aliens, but I strongly suspect it. The way Cardassian state funerals are described really do remind me of Middle Eastern tradition...very elaborate, public affairs.

 

[apenpaap]

I don't know why you all insist on Damar being so young. Yes, he is just a glinn when we first meet him, but how is Dukat no more than a gul before season 4, after the career he's had? Damar doesn't seem like a fresh inexperienced soldier to me, he seems like someone who's had some experience, but is just someone who does not have an ambition to lead.

I agree, he seemed in his late thirties at the very least.

 

[TerokNor]

Wouldn´t the self-discipline sort of go against them being very emotinal in their grief? Then again when Ziyal dies Dukat isn´t self-disciplined...and he did looked sad (did he cry?) by the graveside of Naprem... and that Garak used that implant or Damars heavy drinking also wasn´t very self-discplined.
By the way how would addiction be dealt with in the general Cardassian society or in the Military?
When Damar drank heavily (I agree that there was a lot guilt involved/ Ziyals death/leaving Dukat behind in that state of mind), he also did that on duty and Weyoun did not like that, but Damar was the highest Cardassian. But what if he would had done that heavy drinking already on DS9? I mean he did drink there and seemed to already like it a bit too much there as well with how fast he could drink glass after glass and surly staggered to his quarters not that seldom, but that was off-duty. What would a commanding Gul do to a Glinn, if the Glinn would drink on duty?

As for the age discussion... maybe it depends a bit on the own point of view, like a 5 year old would say that a 20 year old is old and a 50 year old would say, that a 20 year old is young. Maybe thats why we have such different opinions there. I still see him as end twenty to the time of the Groumall and just cannot see him being a lot older than Kira. And also with end twenty he could have had ..don´t know when a cardassian soldier would be finish with his training, but lets say maybe somewhere between 19 and 24...so he would have had half a decade or more experience in the Military/ on that freighter (?) at that age as well.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I actually don't think it goes against their self-discipline at all for them to display grief openly under certain circumstances. I just think Cardassian discipline is fundamentally different from, say, Vulcan discipline. At least the way I think of it, under usual circumstances (i.e. not Dukat going crazy), it is actually viewed as a matter of physical health to grieve openly--almost a purgative. In other words, to weep, to cry out, and to talk about what happened are seen as the body's natural way of coping with the extreme emotions of losing family or close friends, and holding it in is far, FAR more damaging to one's discipline in the long run. (And we saw what happened when Damar held in his grief/guilt over what he'd done to Ziyal.) So to a Cardassian point of view, at least in MY idea of how they are, having this elaborate funeral ceremony where men and women both are allowed to wail and mourn openly is seen as a far better alternative to the total repression that the Vulcans would engage in because you have your chance to express grief in an acceptable environment.

 

[TerokNor]

*nods* Mhm, yes that makes sense. Especially the talking part, as we see Damar talking about the loss of his family. Even he surly would not do it again in front of an alien. And Rusot also said Damar told him for hours about how annoying Kira was...might not truly be grief, but anger, both emotions.
Pitty we never saw a scene while on DS9 with Damar and Rusot together, as it comes through that he was stationed there as well....unless they talked about Kira over the distance. Well guess the authors had not thought of the character than, but still... a scene with these two in Quarks... Damar was always alone there.

Whats your opinion on the other topic?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Personally, I have to imagine a gul would not take kindly to one of his officers drinking on duty. That's a serious breach of discipline. And I can hear the comments that "you will NOT behave like a Klingon savage aboard a CARDASSIAN ship!"

 

[Thor Damar]

^

 

[TerokNor]

*giggle* Sounds very Cardassian. You don´t happen to write (Canon) Damar, do you?

What about drinking off-duty? When comparing Dukat and Damar, Dukat sort of savours his drink, he isn´t drinking much and when he drinks, he does it for the taste or because of special occasion and not simply because of alcoholic effects. Damar on the other end, also quite early on, drinks for the effect. Not on-duty and not as heavy as later on, but already more heavy than its healthy, so it seems.
What would a gul think about that? Would it concern him to know his soldier drinks because of the effect and already quite heavily or would off-duty things not concern him at all, as long as the work is done well?

By the way, *g* I finally found the fanfiction stories I was looking for forever so long. All sides I tried were death, but now I accidently came over a page, thats still alive. Have you read "Transcending Folly" and "Binding the strings"? If not you really should do so. Is it allowed here to post links?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Damar has only made a cameo appearance in my work, so not really.

And I THINK I know which stories you were looking for!!! "Damar, Hero of Cardassia," right? I LOVE those! If you're missing any, I may be able to find more for you. If you're able to send PMs, please send me one and I think between the two of us, we can get the complete collection together.

 

[Thor Damar]

Are you guys talking about the Damar fansite of the same name that unfortunately closed down about five years ago?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yep...there was a LOT of good stuff on there. I especially loved Glinn Quare's story, if you remember which one I mean.

I'll give you a hint. The Wayback Machine is a beautiful, BEAUTIFUL thing.