Captain Mommy?
- Thread starter TiberiusK
- Start date
I don't remember episode titles, but her choice of holodeck simulations at times seemed a little odd for the captain of a starship. I can't imagine Kirk, Picard, or Sisko spending time in the holodeck governing young children.
I wouldn't say this made Janeway seem maternal, but her tendency to be brought to the verge of tears several times in early episodes would have shaken my confidence in her ability to handle the stress of command under the circumstances. You can call it Janeway bashing if you like, but I think she had some serious emotional problems from time to time.I don't have much patience for people who dismiss Janeway as "maternal." I think she was a pretty good captain for the situation Voyager faced. I also think most male captains would have behaved as she did and would not have been judged in a negative way or have been dismissed as paternal. I can't help but wonder if some of these Janeway bashers have a few issues with their own mothers! But I won't go there.
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scotthm said:
I don't remember episode titles, but her choice of holodeck simulations at times seemed a little odd for the captain of a starship. I can't imagine Kirk, Picard, or Sisko spending time in the holodeck governing young children.
I wouldn't say this made Janeway seem maternal, but her tendency to be brought to the verge of tears several times in early episodes would have shaken my confidence in her ability to handle the stress of command under the circumstances. You can call it Janeway bashing if you like, but I think she had some serious emotional problems from time to time.I don't have much patience for people who dismiss Janeway as "maternal." I think she was a pretty good captain for the situation Voyager faced. I also think most male captains would have behaved as she did and would not have been judged in a negative way or have been dismissed as paternal. I can't help but wonder if some of these Janeway bashers have a few issues with their own mothers! But I won't go there.
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I agree with your first comment. I don't think the holodeck scenario was appropriate for the character that we came to know except in its focus on interpersonal relationships, perhaps. I thought the DaVinci program was better suited to her and was glad when that one replaced the governess one. That program focused on a quasi-scientific and artistic side of her that she would want to explore as a relief from her normal job. Unfortunately, Fair Haven was a step back in the wrong direction, IMHO--but that episode is complicated by the inane quandary she goes through with the "Michael" character.
What holodeck scenario would you think Janeway would use for escape?
On the second point, while I agree that she was certainly more emotional at times, I don't think she was out of control to the point of losing the confidence of the crew. If you really believe the premise of the story and all that it entails--loss of family, lack of military support, no trusted place to refurbish and repair the ship, etc.--I think she was pretty unemotional. In fact, I think everyone was too unemotional about their situation. And while Janeway had tendencies toward solitude and vestiges of depression, who wouldn't? The two times she goes too far, when she disappears into her quarters in "Night" and becomes obsessed in "Equinox," only make us remember that she is human, after all, and that long-term stress or betrayal brings out deep emotion in even a Starfleet captain.
And Janeway is a Starfleet captain who has gone through extensive training and experience and performed well enough to have been given the first Intrepid class ship in the fleet. That's significant. Voyager isn't her first command (her comment in "Shattered" notwithstanding), but the unique circumstances she faces puts her training to the test. So what if she seems close to tears? She should be upset at those times, and I like that they show her frustrations and disappointments. I actually think those reactions would reassure the crew, not undermine her authority, because they show how totally invested she is in her duty and in her responsibility to the crew.
There were times that the other captains were just as emotional--especially Kirk, who was in a more isolated situation than the others--and I find that I like those episodes the best, for that reason. It shows their humanity, and I don't think those emotions make the male captains paternal or Janeway maternal.
*steps down from soapbox*
I see what you're saying here. But I'll note that Churchill was always crying in public and being emotional. But, yes, that might not have gone over well with some folks either. I'll also note that Clark Gable and Spencer Tracy have a lot of crying scenes in their films. But, yes, we don't expect our captains to be getting moist-eyed in a crisis.
I stand corrected on the years of life experience. But I'll argue that Data's naivete makes him seem younger than he is, to the point where he could reasonably be described as "childlike," at least early on. And Picard isn't the only one who's paternal, or at least fraternal, toward him; ditto for Riker, LaForge, Troi, and Crusher. (Tasha Yar being a rather obvious exception. )Brennyren
^oh, I agree, he does act childlike often, he's just older than he seems (probably due to being an android and/or never having a childhood like bio-species). And yes, the crew are often paternal/fraternal to him, which I think is a ligit argument to show that the male captains can be paternal. Hell, it seemed like Sisko was sometimes with some of his crew.
and the scene where Janeway dresses down Harry and Tom is hilarious - I think it's the episode where Kim falls for that alien girl, but I could be wrong.
and the scene where Janeway dresses down Harry and Tom is hilarious - I think it's the episode where Kim falls for that alien girl, but I could be wrong.
I'm lost, who was talking about seven finding the three borg?
::
Janeway was definitely the "mom" of the crew, or at least the senior officers. This isn't a strike against her in my book though - quite the opposite, in fact. As already mentioned, once the ship became stranded beyond the reach of Starfleet, with no backup or crew rotations possible, the crew was bound to become especially close-knit, far more so than an average Starfleet crew that could still maintain contact with Starfleet and with their own families. I would have been disappointed if she hadn't become "Captain Mommy."
Indeed, as you might recall from my one and only attempt at fanfiction a few years back*, its main storyline was about the maternal Janeway coping with Voyager's homecoming, and specifically the realization that she was about to become an empty-nester again.
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* Yes, I do still have "Epilogue" in PDF format; PM me with an e-mail address to send it to if you're interested.
Indeed, as you might recall from my one and only attempt at fanfiction a few years back*, its main storyline was about the maternal Janeway coping with Voyager's homecoming, and specifically the realization that she was about to become an empty-nester again.
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* Yes, I do still have "Epilogue" in PDF format; PM me with an e-mail address to send it to if you're interested.
In my opinion Janeway was very motherly to the main characters. However she didn't give a rats ass about the jr. officers.
Janeway, "Medical Emergency! Harry stubbed his toe on the console!"
(An officer gets shot)
Janeway: wow... He got shot on his first away mission. I survived about 30 fire fights... wimp.
It was less so with Picard. Picard and the senior staff actually cared about the jr. staff. THey were actually included in the episodes. There would be a jr. staff member at the helm during a crisis and sometimes just for no reason.
In Voyager it was always Tom at the helm when something mattered. Same with tactical and tuvok/kim. TNG changed that up a bit by having an ensign at tactical or the helm or ops during something important. The only thing they did bad at involving jr. crew in was engineering where data/Leforge did everything, but thats fine.
Kirk didn't even show any emotion when a crew member di9ed in battle. I saw an episode where a man got shot right in front of him and he kinda ignored it. Then there was another episode where the only casual was a crew members spouse to be. Then he was very emotional and comforting to the woman. It was weird. But then again, Picard didn't seem to care much when Kirk died.
Sisko cared quite a bit about his crew. yea, a crew member would get shot and vaporized and just ignored every once in a while, but at one point around 6 scientists/engineers died over a crashed dominion ship and hee cried a lot. Of course, they used the , "They knew the risks speech and cheered him up."
and... well... thats all I can think of as examples.
Janeway, "Medical Emergency! Harry stubbed his toe on the console!"
(An officer gets shot)
Janeway: wow... He got shot on his first away mission. I survived about 30 fire fights... wimp.
It was less so with Picard. Picard and the senior staff actually cared about the jr. staff. THey were actually included in the episodes. There would be a jr. staff member at the helm during a crisis and sometimes just for no reason.
In Voyager it was always Tom at the helm when something mattered. Same with tactical and tuvok/kim. TNG changed that up a bit by having an ensign at tactical or the helm or ops during something important. The only thing they did bad at involving jr. crew in was engineering where data/Leforge did everything, but thats fine.
Kirk didn't even show any emotion when a crew member di9ed in battle. I saw an episode where a man got shot right in front of him and he kinda ignored it. Then there was another episode where the only casual was a crew members spouse to be. Then he was very emotional and comforting to the woman. It was weird. But then again, Picard didn't seem to care much when Kirk died.
Sisko cared quite a bit about his crew. yea, a crew member would get shot and vaporized and just ignored every once in a while, but at one point around 6 scientists/engineers died over a crashed dominion ship and hee cried a lot. Of course, they used the , "They knew the risks speech and cheered him up."
and... well... thats all I can think of as examples.
Okay, here's another one of those generalized posts about Janeway and/or Voyager that drive me up the wall.
Let's start with Tom always being at the helm. He's the chief pilot, and there are only 140 or so crew on the whole ship, compared to the much larger crew in TNG. I would expect him to be there during any foreseen crisis or to arrive and take over when an unexpected problem comes up. Aren't Sulu and Chekhov usually at the helm in TOS? Isn't Data almost always there in TNG? To me, this is just a nit-picky comment--and it isn't even true! There are several instances when Tom isn't at the helm when they hit anomalies. I can think of two times right off the bat when Tom wasn't at the helm: when they hit the subspace anomaly in "Bride of Chaotica!" and when Janeway takes the helm and flies through the binary star in "Scientific Method." And I'm sure there are others instances where Tom arrives from Sickbay or wherever he was off-duty to take over the helm in a crisis.
However, it's really surprising to see someone say that Janeway doesn't care about the crew from the lower decks, since she is usually criticized for being too emotional. Again, from memory, I remember her being infuriated by anyone's death, injury, or illness--look at what she did (fly through the binary star) after the aliens killed a crewman in "Scientific Method," how happy she was to have Lindsay Ballard back in "Ashes to Ashes," how crushed she was to lose Joe Carey in "Friendship One," and how concerned she was about an ailing Naomi Wildman in "Basics." All of those were "lower decks" individuals.
I wonder where you get your paraphrased statement about Janeway's reaction to a crewman being shot: "wow... He got shot on his first away mission. I survived about 30 fire fights... wimp." I don't recall her reacting this way, ever, and I think it's a little irresponsible to attribute words to a character that she didn't say and that don't reflect her usual actions. The only Janeway that was that cold was the "false" Janeway in "Living Witness."
So, just curious, where did this "wimp" comment originate and in what episode? Or were you just trying to be funny?
Let's start with Tom always being at the helm. He's the chief pilot, and there are only 140 or so crew on the whole ship, compared to the much larger crew in TNG. I would expect him to be there during any foreseen crisis or to arrive and take over when an unexpected problem comes up. Aren't Sulu and Chekhov usually at the helm in TOS? Isn't Data almost always there in TNG? To me, this is just a nit-picky comment--and it isn't even true! There are several instances when Tom isn't at the helm when they hit anomalies. I can think of two times right off the bat when Tom wasn't at the helm: when they hit the subspace anomaly in "Bride of Chaotica!" and when Janeway takes the helm and flies through the binary star in "Scientific Method." And I'm sure there are others instances where Tom arrives from Sickbay or wherever he was off-duty to take over the helm in a crisis.
However, it's really surprising to see someone say that Janeway doesn't care about the crew from the lower decks, since she is usually criticized for being too emotional. Again, from memory, I remember her being infuriated by anyone's death, injury, or illness--look at what she did (fly through the binary star) after the aliens killed a crewman in "Scientific Method," how happy she was to have Lindsay Ballard back in "Ashes to Ashes," how crushed she was to lose Joe Carey in "Friendship One," and how concerned she was about an ailing Naomi Wildman in "Basics." All of those were "lower decks" individuals.
I wonder where you get your paraphrased statement about Janeway's reaction to a crewman being shot: "wow... He got shot on his first away mission. I survived about 30 fire fights... wimp." I don't recall her reacting this way, ever, and I think it's a little irresponsible to attribute words to a character that she didn't say and that don't reflect her usual actions. The only Janeway that was that cold was the "false" Janeway in "Living Witness."
So, just curious, where did this "wimp" comment originate and in what episode? Or were you just trying to be funny?
I like the way Janeway was like the "mom" of the crew. It made the show, as well as the interaction between her and the crewmembers, more interesting.
Also, I agree with AuntKate; she definitely did care about all her crewmwembers not only the ones she knew well!
Also, I agree with AuntKate; she definitely did care about all her crewmwembers not only the ones she knew well!
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