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Captain Marvel (2019)

Oh, so it's fine for TDK Joker but no one else?

And his plan didn't hinge on Steve and Tony both reaching that base at the same time, that was icing on the cake. All he wanted was the tape there and to kill the other Winter Soldiers. Once he had the tape he could release it onto the Web or send it to Tony directly. Tony showing up and fighting Steve then and there was a welcome surprise.

While I agree with the larger point that the plan didn't hinge on this playing out as it did; I wouldn't say "surprise" is exactly the right word given that once he was in Siberia, Zemo took the time to phone the hotel he'd been staying at back in Berlin (or was it Vienna? Whatever!) and order room service. Which of course very quickly leads to the discovery of the body of the man he replaced, information that he knew would get back to Stark very quickly and indicate that Bucky was indeed set up, prompting Tony to go back Steve up.

You don't need to be a genius psychological annalist to predict what Stark will do here. For all his intellect, his emotional tendencies make him very predictable under the right circumstances. There's always the slight possibility that he'd choose otherwise, but the odds were very much in favour of the reaction we actually got.
 
My take on it was that Steve and Tony were always on the edge of coming to blows and it would have happened no matter what. Steve's opinion of Tony was based on his relationship with Howard. Tony's opinion of Steve was based on Steve's relationship to Howard, magnified by Tony's lack of a meaningful relationship with Howard.

Zemo didn't know that they would come to blows. He might have suspected it. In any case, he did what he could, and then lucked out. He intensified and accelerated the conflict between Steve and Tony that had always existed.
 
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And that's the whole point. He - or anyone - isn't control of anything.

Yet his endgame is to manipulate two specific people to be at a very specific and remote part of the world at a very specific time through a series of his actions.

No it isn't. Yes, he's happy that he gets to do all this in person because that's gratifying and dramatic. He never needed it to happen in person in that specific place and time, though. As I already said, if no one shows up he can just release the video to the news and cause the exact same rift. He'll be disappointed about not getting his face to face revenge, but his plan would still have worked.

To put it into perspective, only look at the very last link in the chain: Tony finds the body in the hotel room and puts two and two together quickly (which in and of itself takes Tony's ability of deduction on a lot of faith) enough to fly off to their dinner date on time.

But a million infinite number of butterfly effects could have happened in between, anything from Tony having a slight pang of ennui and ultimately deciding to go home and give Pepper a hug, to the concierge calling in sick that day so the cleaning person unknowingly walks into the room. Or here's one: Rhodey probably should have died which would have changed Tony's psyche completely - let alone his ability to give a crap.

A) Tony didn't find the body, he was alerted by Friday who monitors news reports all the time.
B) Zemo deliberately called people into his hotel room, which guaranteed that someone would find the body since it's just sitting in the open bathtub.
C) Rhodey actually dying (which honestly could have been an improvement to the film) would only cause an even bigger rift between Stark and Cap and make Stark even angrier about the fact that his best friend died because Steve wanted to protect a mindless assassin who was also guilty of killing Tony's parents.

I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to contrivance being a necessary evil in popular fiction, but there comes a point where it completely breaks immersion for me. Which is unfortunate because it completely spoils what would have otherwise been a fun romp.

Here's the thing though, it could be argued that had T'Challa not been there, that Steve and Bucky might have gotten away. Most of that entire chase sequence is Steve staving off T'Challa, not the Interpol (or whoever they were) guys. BP's interference cut off any alternative escape route available to them. More importantly, it gave Steve someone of equal skill to combat. They may not have escaped, but I like to think the odds of Steve and Bucky against all of Deutschland's finest are pretty good. They may not have been able to elude capture forever, but they might have held out long enough or gotten far enough out of the city (or country) to have them sent to a different detention center with a different doctor.

OR

T'Challa was always part of the plan. The bomb's yield and position and time of detonation were specifically chosen to target the podium and kill T'Chaka. Then we're right back into Zemo is a prophet territory. I mean what if the King had some bad room service the night before and had to make an emergency pit-stop and the start of the conference was delayed 15 minutes.

**And just to clarify, I don't "hate" the film by any means. Hell, I've seen it five or six times. I just think, for being the pivot point of the entire franchise, it could have used a much tighter script and plotting.

And when I say "worst," I do so on the grounds that I have to often remind myself of Thor 2's existence. And I also like IM3 a lot more than most see to - I think Pierce's performance is brilliant.

The film is abundantly clear on the fact that no one knows Black Panther exists. Theorizing about how Zemo planned for the Black Panther as 'proof' that he knows too much is absurd. The bomb targeted the podium because it's the center of attention and the obvious target for anyone trying to disrupt the event (which is what the expected motivation of the bomber was supposed to be). The fact that it was King T'Chaka standing there is pure bad luck for the Wakandans.

As for Steve and Bucky escaping - could they? Maybe so. But the movie offers absolutely no reason to believe they *would*. Steve didn't go there to prevent Bucky from being captured. He went there to make sure Bucky didn't get killed or kill any cops. The only reason it turned into a running firefight is because Black Panther showed up out of nowhere trying to kill Bucky. Without BP, if Bucky tried to run, Steve would be fighting him - or they would hole up in an empty building somewhere and argue about it until Steve convinced him not to run.

Also, the running chase scene happened in Romania and the UN dispatched the Doctor Zemo impersonated from Geneva, so just crossing border lines wouldn't seem likely to change that aspect of Zemo's plan, anyway. The movie is also entirely unclear on whether Zemo actually needed advance notice of who exactly he was going to intercept in order to complete his forged documents on time, or whether he already had most of what he needed lined up and would only need to quickly fill in the blanks from his victims id and hit print. (Real world, yes, he'd need time, but the MCU has far more advanced espionage technology than the real world.) Ergo it may not matter in the slightest who exactly the UN chose to send. Worst case scenario would be that Barnes is arrested so far away from Zemo that Zemo can't get in position in time, which means that plan's out the window. But nobody's plans always work, so the idea that there was a chance his plan could fail is hardly some incredible disqualifying insight.

And even then, there's a real possibility that his skills and knowledge of the system would be enough to finagle an interview with Barnes anyway, even if he wasn't able to impersonate the first doctor called to the scene.
 
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The movie is also entirely unclear on whether Zemo actually needed advance notice of who exactly he was going to intercept in order to complete his forged documents on time, or whether he already had most of what he needed lined up and would only need to quickly fill in the blanks from his victims id and hit print. (Real world, yes, he'd need time, but the MCU has far more advanced espionage technology than the real world.)

Small point of logic: when we first see Zemo he's hunting down a lone Hydra agent living in hiding. Presumably this isn't the first one since he'd need someone else to tell him that this guy specifically is the one with the intel. Now don't you think that lone Hydra agents that have successfully escaped the fall of SHIELD and survived the subsequent dragnet unnoticed are *exactly* the kind of people that'd have SHIELD grade equipment for making counterfeit docs in the field? Probably the face mask tech too (though more old school than the nano mask.) And it's not like they'd have any use for them after Zemo came to visit, what with being dead and all... ;)
Movie Zemo wasn't all that interesting. Generic Bond villain with an evil plan #2.
Yes and no, respectively.

Zemo isn't supposed to be an engaging, charismatic villain because this isn't his story, it's Steve, Bucky & Tony's story. Zemo has simple motivations and a simple plan because he's not really a villain so much as a living embodiment of the long term consequences of the actions of the Avengers. The proverbial chicken coming home to roost.

Indeed, far from being a Bond villain knock-off, Zemo is a deliberate subversion of such tropes. Spending most of the time in the shadows, never directly communicating with the heroes until the very end, his motives only being revealed to the audience gradually and mostly though inference (the last voicemail from his family) which only becomes clear through context.

If he were that kind of villain then he really would have tried to unleash a small army of supersoldiers to do his bidding...but no, he shot them all in their sleep. He just needed Rogers to think that's what he wanted because that's the kind of motivation Captain America would expect from an advisary.

His arc about being consumed by revenge only really serves as a side-story; a mirror to T'Challa's mini character arc.
 
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I'm not sure I understand why it would be a slap in the face to the character, is she ultra serious all the time in the comics or something?

Yes, she is. And it would be more of a slap in the face for her to be joking all of the time in the movie, since Marvel wants to have a success just like Warners had with Wonder Woman.
 
Yes, she is. And it would be more of a slap in the face for her to be joking all of the time in the movie, since Marvel wants to have a success just like Warners had with Wonder Woman.
Captain Marvel will make more than Wonder Woman did. It's not going to top Aquaman, however.
 
It's not whether it will make more money or not than Wonder Woman; will it have the same level of impact as Wonder Woman?

Something tells me no.
 
Yes, she is. And it would be more of a slap in the face for her to be joking all of the time in the movie, since Marvel wants to have a success just like Warners had with Wonder Woman.
I just read the first Kelly Sue DeConick collection, and her attitude there seemed pretty close to what we see in the movie.
Well of course it won't.

Again I ask, why do you think this will happen?
Wonder Woman was the first big, female lead superhero movie of this MCU/Worlds of DC era, no matter how good Captain Marvel is it will always be the second.
 
At this point, Captain Marvel isn't even second after WW, since its actually in the same category as Supergirl, Catwoman, Elektra, etc. Being the, what, 4th or fifth terrible female lead solo superhero movie as opposed to the second good one, and there probably won't be a second good female lead superhero movie until Wonder Woman 2 comes out, and then probably Black Widow after that assuming it gets made before a potential WW 3.
 
LMAO!

Clark Gregg responded to the "how did aging hit you? 10 year challenge" thing on Facebook by posting a picture of Coulson from Thor 10 years ago and a picture of the deaged Coulson from Captain Marvel.

y71l9sv3yo.jpg
 
[QUOTE="JD, post: 12761589, member: 3220"
Wonder Woman was the first big, female lead superhero movie of this MCU/Worlds of DC era, no matter how good Captain Marvel is it will always be the second.[/QUOTE]

Wonder Woman is Wonder Woman. Captain Marvel is...who is Captain Marvel, anyway?*

*Brie Larson is not Robert Downey Jr.
 
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