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Captain Kirk's death

I think the entire Kirk sub-plot in this movie sucked. His first death was horrid because it made the new captain of the 1701-B look like an indecisive fool who couldn't handle the job. Is he really the best Starfleet could get for their new flagship? No wonder why we never heard anything of him after the movies (other than the Captains Log comic about him). It was nice to see Kirk take command of the situation, but you would think Harriman would have been able to handle it, considering, you know, he captains the new, state of the art flagship of the Federation and all. No, lets put a guy who can't make the hard decision there instead!

And than Kirk dies after his return by.....falling about 15 feet. Cmon, really? And than they bury him and leave him on the planet. Why not shoot him back inside the nexus (kinda like when they shot Spock into space)? It would seem more fitting, he was living his dreams of the life he sacrificed in there, why not give him a chance to go back?
 
I think the entire Kirk sub-plot in this movie sucked. His first death was horrid because it made the new captain of the 1701-B look like an indecisive fool who couldn't handle the job. Is he really the best Starfleet could get for their new flagship? No wonder why we never heard anything of him after the movies (other than the Captains Log comic about him).No, lets put a guy who can't make the hard decision there instead!

I believe it was supposed to be established that Harriman's decisiveness and intellgence was to arrive on Tuesday.;)
 
I believe it was supposed to be established that Harriman's decisiveness and intellgence was to arrive on Tuesday.;)

Good one...

I think the entire Kirk sub-plot in this movie sucked. His first death was horrid because it made the new captain of the 1701-B look like an indecisive fool who couldn't handle the job. Is he really the best Starfleet could get for their new flagship? No wonder why we never heard anything of him after the movies (other than the Captains Log comic about him). It was nice to see Kirk take command of the situation, but you would think Harriman would have been able to handle it, considering, you know, he captains the new, state of the art flagship of the Federation and all. No, lets put a guy who can't make the hard decision there instead!

No, Harriman was by far not the best Starfleet could do. Perhaps there was no one as good as Kirk, but there had to be better captains that Harriman. He was intentionally lame to contrast Kirk. Harriman being a dumb@ss made Kirk look even better. So he served a purpose in the plot, but true, it doesn't make sense for Starfleet to put him in command of the Enterprise, or for him to even be a captain at all. So you just make up a reason...

I like to think that Captain Harriman's father was a high-ranking admiral in Starfleet, perhaps an admiral that rose in influence after the conspiracy plot was foiled in the previous film. Admiral Harriman maneuvered his son into getting the postion of Enterprise-B captain. But after its premier voyage ending in disaster, there was a big uproar throughout the Federation for the head of Captain Harriman. Not only was his gross inaction and negilgence blamed for the loss of so many refugees, but also the presummed death of the legendary hero Kirk. They had a court martial trial, and even though Captain Harriman may have gotten off the hook, there was no way that they were going to give him back command of Enterprise-B for PR reasons alone. So Captain Harriman got transfered to some lowly garbage scowl or something. And then Starfleet pursuades Chekov to come out of retirement, accept promotion to captain, and give him command of the Enterprise, an assignement he accepts to honor the memory of Captain Kirk. Chekov was the youngest of the TOS Enterprise officer characters anyway, younger than even Sulu. IMO, if Sulu can be a captain then so can Chekov, and a former officer of the previous two Enterprises is an appropriate choice for B's captain.

Why not shoot him back inside the nexus (kinda like when they shot Spock into space)? It would seem more fitting, he was living his dreams of the life he sacrificed in there, why not give him a chance to go back?

Kirk was dead, so what would make anyone think that his dead body would have any experiences inside the Nexux? Perhaps the internal-Nexus-reality only affects lving minds. That would make the most sense.

But as stated before and quoted below, there was no reason to shoot Kirk's body back in the Nexus anyway because there was a part of Kirk still alive in the Nexus that never left. The Nexus reality is eternal, outside of linear time.

And there was no need for Kirk to return to the Nexus anyway, because he is still there and always will be...

Remember...

There was a part of Guinan that never left the Nexus, so we can assume it is probable that there is a part of Kirk still in there too. And since there is a timeless quality to reality in the Nexus, we can assume that the Nexus-Kirk is disconnected from the physical Kirk that left, so the Nexus-Kirk lives on in the Nexus beyond the death of the physical Kirk.

Besides the echo left behind being a way that Guinan could provide guidance to Picard from within the Nexus, it also served as a subtle suggestion of a "sci-fi heaven" of sorts for Kirk to live in for all eternity. So a part of Kirk is immortal...

So even after Kirk died in the physical world, Kirk lives on in the Nexus, happily ever after living out his most joyous blissful fantasies.
 
A story could be told about the Nexus revivifying his body, and his coming back to life. But only if the Nexus can absorb the body.
 
I just watched the Youtube video of the original ending (I had never seen it before), and I have to say, contrary to T'Girl's opinion, that it was truly a crappy ending. I got bored of the overlong and silly fight scene about 30 seconds into it, the old "pull an extra little gun out of my boot" schtick was incredibly stupid, Picard takes forever to do whatever he was doing with the rocket, Soran's jumping up and down to try to reach the Nexus is just pathetic, and when Soran finally realizes that he's lost and starts yelling at Picard, Picard simply shoots him dead. Huh? That's it?


After seeing the original ending, I have to disagree with you. I think it was much more cinematic and moving than the one they ended up using.

Ithink the fact that Soan's jumping up and down being pathetic was the point.

(SPOILERS!)



And Picard shooting him dead is much more dramatic. The talk first, second, third, fourth...Picard of the TV show has been effected by everything that happened: the death of his nephew and brother, the kidnapping of Geordi by the Klingon sisters, Soran will to destroy anything to live a dream, and the killing of Kirk drives him over the edge.
 
And Picard shooting him dead is much more dramatic. The talk first, second, third, fourth...Picard of the TV show has been effected by everything that happened: the death of his nephew and brother, the kidnapping of Geordi by the Klingon sisters, Soran will to destroy anything to live a dream, and the killing of Kirk drives him over the edge.

But Kirk wasn't dead before Picard shot Soran. As a matter of fact, Picard thought he'd be able to get Kirk back to the Enterprise and save his life. And nowhere in that scene does Picard look like he's been "driven over the edge." He just up and shoots Soran with all the energy of swatting a pesky fly. And he hasn't been affected by Robert, Rene, Geordi, or Soran, because by the end of the movie he really seems not to give a shit about them (or even the fact that the Enterprise has been completely destroyed).

You're entitled to your opinion, but to me, this first ending had all the feel of "Okay, now we got Kirk and Picard together to stop the bad guy...now what do we do?"
 
I wish Kirk had died more heroically. For me, his death felt anti-climatic. Next to ST V, ST 7 is my least favorite of the TOS films. Captain Kirk is one of the coolest heroes ever - if he has to die, he should go out with fireworks. Generations was awkwardly handled. Spock's "death" in TWOK was a heroic death, but Kirk's death is just kind of sad.

Shoot, even Khan had a better death in TWOK then Kirk did on "Generations." What I don't understand is, with the importance of Kirk & Spock is to Starfleet, why were they both just buried into an unknown planet left to rot? Seriously, I would think they would of taken better care of their honoured dead.
 
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ST 7 is my least favorite of the TOS films.

ST7 Generations is a TNG film, not a TOS film. Kirk is a supporting character for Picard, so you can't really call it a TOS film.

Shoot, even Khan had a better death in TWOK then Kirk did on "Generations." What I don't understand is, with the importance of Kirk & Spock is to Starfleet, why were they both just buried into an unknown planet left to rot? Seriously, I would think they would of taken better care of their honoured dead.

Spock's not dead, but you may be referring to the time he was dead in TWOK and TSFS. Spock wasn't left on Genesis to rot. His coffin-tube was launched into the atmosphere of the Genesis planet, and the intention was for it to burn up in atmosphere. A sci-fi equivalent of a Viking funeral pyre at seas, or cremation today. But dialogue in TSFS establishes that gravity was in flux on the new planet so the tube soft-landed. A good thing, because of it hadn't then the Genesis wave wouldn't have been able to regenerate his body and Spock would have stayed dead.

And how do we know that Kirk's body was just left to rot on Veridian III anyway? Maybe Picard buried it because he didn't know how long it would be before he was rescued and didn't want Veridian buzzards to get to it in the mean time. The body could have later been uncovered and taken back to Earth. Maybe the body of Kirk, being such a legend in the galaxy, was given a magnificent tomb.
 
I intensly dislike both deaths, but at least in the first version, it wasn't his fault (aka, his weight) that killed him.

The second death was... Well, when fans said "Kirk should die on the bridge of the Enterprise", they must've perceived that wrong...
 
Wasn't there a plan in the early production stages of Star Trek VI to kill off Kirk and most of the Enterprise crew leaving only Spock and McCoy alive at the end?

If Kirk had to die, I think a good way to do it would be to have him take the shot meant for the Federation President back in TUC.
 
If Kirk had to die, had him die aboard an Enterprise... And given how the Ent-D was gonna go down anyway, might as well bring it down with Kirk aboard.

That one change (well, the change of the entire Picard-Soran plotline) would've somewhat fixed the horrid GEN to passable entertainment (not good a film still, but OK).Q
 
Wasn't there a plan in the early production stages of Star Trek VI to kill off Kirk and most of the Enterprise crew leaving only Spock and McCoy alive at the end?

If Kirk had to die, I think a good way to do it would be to have him take the shot meant for the Federation President back in TUC.

Actually, the better option would have been to have him taking the shot for Azetbur. I know there wasn't an attempt on her life. But that would have been more powerful than Kirk protecting the Federation President.
 
Wasn't there a plan in the early production stages of Star Trek VI to kill off Kirk and most of the Enterprise crew leaving only Spock and McCoy alive at the end?

If Kirk had to die, I think a good way to do it would be to have him take the shot meant for the Federation President back in TUC.

Actually, the better option would have been to have him taking the shot for Azetbur. I know there wasn't an attempt on her life. But that would have been more powerful than Kirk protecting the Federation President.

Hadn't thought about that. You're right. I like it. The dialogue even works with it.

"You've restored my father's faith"

"And you've restored my son's"
 
It would also wrap up that "There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives" thing in TVH, of course the Klingons were responsible for that mess in the first place...
 
Was it necessary, was it well executed, or was it just a plain dumb idea?

One word summary: sucked.

Two word summary: sucked badly.

Three word summary: worst death ever.

The details on my position:

I was unhappy with the way Kirk's character developed after Wrath Of Khan. The implications of his aging were increasingly overlooked, to the point where ST5 actually had a fifty-something James Kirk free-climbing El Capitan.

(There's a really ironic side-note, as well:

(About the same time ST5 was released, two guys got worldwide press for scaling El Cap.

(Well, I call it "two guys," but in fact, one of the guys was a double amputee with no legs.

(In reality, it was a Hurculean effort by one man to carry himself, his buddy, and two packs up and down El Capitan. He was successful, too.

(Hence the press. They got footage by sending climbers partway up to wait for the two on their way down.

(When ST5 was released, El Cap had only been free-climbed three times in human history by younger individuals in peak physical condition.)

Anyway, Shatner's personal difficulties in dealing with his own age impacted the character of Kirk, much to the character's detriment.

Back in the 1970s, before any of the films, I had an entirely different idea of how Kirk would end up, influenced largely by the Horatio Hornblower novels of C.S. Forester.

However, my interpretation of how Kirk would handle being eventually kicked upstairs was a bit different. First he's promoted to Fleet Captain and commands a small fleet, of which the Enterprise is only one ship.

Eventually he's promoted to Commodore in command of Starbase 11.

As portrayed in TMP, he pretty much detests it for the desk job that it is. But he knows that he really is too old to be on the front lines any more.

(I think I envisioned his last mission as Fleet Captain to have been something he could've done when he was younger, but was no longer physically capable of it through no fault but age. It was the Enterprise's dashing First Officer, Commander Sulu, that saved the day -- and dramatically, Kirk's ass.

(Probably with an epee -- not a katana. It might still have been retractable, that's a cool kind of space opera thing ...

(Spock wasn't Captain of the Enterprise or any other ship. TOS's Spock would have gone on to a scientific research position in Starfleet when he was promoted to Captain. He never wanted a ship, certainly not Kirk's ship. A chance to study the Guardian Of Forever, as head of a Starfleet team, on the other hand ... )

So in my private fantasy future (PFF?) for Kirk, he eventually got sick of pushing paper and followed in the footsteps of his Starfleet friend Commodore Robert Wesley. Wesley, it turns out in TAS, retired from Starfleet to become Governor of the colony planet Mantilles.

In my PFF, Kirk did the same thing: found a colony that needed a fearless, active, mature leader and got himself appointed Governor. The planet was Class M, of course, but still had its share of hostile life forms to occasionally harass Kirk so he didn't feel like he was pushing paper all the time.

And it was a colony, which even in Star Trek's time means there are dangers. How many colonies in TOS needed the Enterprise's help, after all?

(Apparently it's not all that incredibly uncommon to get everything going really well ... only to discover your planet's being constantly bathed in lethal radiation and the only thing keeping you alive are some parasitic spores that make you want to live like Amish ...)

Naturally, McCoy tagged along. He'd been on Kirk's staff since the Enterprise.

And of course, at some point along the way (the memory of my PFF is hazy on this point), they discover they need Spock for some big McGuffin that threatened the colony. Something only his scientific expertise could possibly deal with.

Cue the big reunion scene where Spock beams down (ferried by the Enterprise) to Kirk's office transporter pad. The day is quickly saved and Spock remains ... for no reason other than it felt right to be together again.

The other characters go on to other things. Kirk occasionally saw a Captain Sulu of the USS Enterprise when his patrol would bring the ship to Kirk's colony. Like I say, it's a bit hazy.

Eventually and poetically (influenced here by Robin Hood's and Sherlock Holmes' deaths), Kirk goes off to confront some big McGuffin that needs taking care of or the colony will die. He knows he won't come back.

I was never specific with myself about his end -- and to be honest, I'd've preferred Generations had never touched it.

In my PFF, one evening Kirk strapped on his phaserbelt and climbed on his hover-bike. The last anyone saw, he was riding into a blueish alien sunset, knowing that only he and he alone could save the day ...

... and he simply never came back.

Nobody knew the details of what happened, not even Spock or McCoy. They all knew he went to die heroically, but that was all. No trace of him (or the McGuffin) were ever found.

It was akin to knowing that Sherlock Holmes dragged Moriarty off the cliff at Reichenbach Falls, but not needing to know the details of the fistfight. Holmes just did what he had to do, and that was that.

(In my later years with modern SFX, I might put in a blinding light on the horizon just before dawn the next morning -- to indicate Kirk's success and certain death. But the nature of the menace would be such that the damage caused by whatever was going on would be limited as long as Kirk succeeded.

(I dunno, maybe a "deeply troubled" Klingon, Kor, never got over Kirk repeatedly beating him and wrecking his career. Now he's got a Neutron Polarity Reversal Device and is holding the planet hostage until Kirk will meet for a duel ...

(Cue Kor's subspace ultimatum: "We shall finally meet in battle, as we were destined. No omnipotent aliens stand in our way. Come if you dare.")

Spock outlives McCoy in the PFF, of course, with McCoy dying in his sleep: the colony's aged country doctor.

My PFF for Spock gets a lot hazier, mostly because I've approved of how the character was handled post-TOS. Becoming an Ambassador, particularly to Romulus, was perfectly within Spock's character.

I'd like to think in my PFF that maybe one day, Commodore Sulu came calling for Spock because they needed him to negotiate with the Romulans.

Turns out that against all odds, the Romulan Commander eventually gained some political clout. Now the Romulan Empire wants to open diplomatic relations, with the Romulan Commander as their chief Ambassador ... and she'll only negotiate with Spock.

Yeah, it got a little Mary Sue-ish, what with Spock getting the girl in the end. Still, it's a hell of a lot better than Kirk's ridiculous end fighting Malcom MacDowell.

Dakota Smith
 
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Kirk dying in TUC would've been a major anti-climax.

Really, in the end, Kirk's better off with him and the crew riding on the "second star to the right..."
 
Kirk dying in TUC would've been a major anti-climax.

Really, in the end, Kirk's better off with him and the crew riding on the "second star to the right..."

True. As for Generations, I think it would have been best had he died saving Enterprise B. I cannot think of a way for him and Picard to both be heroes stopping Soran. If Kirk is shot in the back destroying the missile, what does Picard do to be a hero. Wait, here is how it would have and should have worked. Soran sees Picard tampering with the missile. He tries to shoot him, but Kirk jumps in to take the shot for him. This is after he and Soran fight, but instead of Soran going over the cliff it should have been Kirk. Soran would think he is dead and go to deal with Picard. He tries to shoot Picard, but Kirk jumps in the line of fire. The rest plays out as shown. Picard locks the clamps, and Soran is killed when it explodes.
 
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