Agreed. Ultimately I think "Generations" should have been just a regular TNG stand alone film. The TOS cast had their swan song with "The Undiscovered Country" which is my favorite Original Cast film.
If you could re-write Kirk's part in Generations...
- Thread starter Cadet49
- Start date
I see waaaaaayyyyy too many proposed changes. Initial exposition is fine by itself, well-done in fact. There are a few forgivable shortcomings in the middle, more than made up for by Picard's internal turmoil.
The disadvantage is toward the end. When Kirk is introduced again, he's rushed. There's too much going on in too little time. That has to be lengthened, slowed down to match the same feel of Picard's experience.
One suggestion I saw here that I embrace fully is the concept of having Kirk's reality be 1937, living happily with Edith. Thats a great idea.
I can see it going this way.
Picard: Don't you see Kirk? This whole reality is nothing but- a fantasy! A fictional creation of what never was and what never could have been!
Kirk: Thats not possible. This [gestures] is my home. Edith-
Picard: Is dead. And has been dead for hundreds of years!
Kirk: No.
Picard: SHE'S DEAD CAPTAIN!
Kirk: NO! [the reality changes to the same scene where she is killed. Everything goes still and silent. Kirk sinks to his knees and sobs]
Picard: There's still time for you to make a difference, to help those you really can.
Kirk: Not anymore. There's nothing left for me.
Picard: [hands him the old uniform] This is. Now you must come... If you can't do it for me, do it for her.
Kirk: [accepts uniform, looks it over. He straightens as if a great weight has been lifted from his shoulders.] You're... right Picard. I'd been deluding myself about this... about her.
Picard: [offers him a hand] Its not too late.
Kirk: [takes hand]
The other is Romulans in place of the Duras sisters. I think it would have helped with the intrigue.
The disadvantage is toward the end. When Kirk is introduced again, he's rushed. There's too much going on in too little time. That has to be lengthened, slowed down to match the same feel of Picard's experience.
One suggestion I saw here that I embrace fully is the concept of having Kirk's reality be 1937, living happily with Edith. Thats a great idea.
I can see it going this way.
Picard: Don't you see Kirk? This whole reality is nothing but- a fantasy! A fictional creation of what never was and what never could have been!
Kirk: Thats not possible. This [gestures] is my home. Edith-
Picard: Is dead. And has been dead for hundreds of years!
Kirk: No.
Picard: SHE'S DEAD CAPTAIN!
Kirk: NO! [the reality changes to the same scene where she is killed. Everything goes still and silent. Kirk sinks to his knees and sobs]
Picard: There's still time for you to make a difference, to help those you really can.
Kirk: Not anymore. There's nothing left for me.
Picard: [hands him the old uniform] This is. Now you must come... If you can't do it for me, do it for her.
Kirk: [accepts uniform, looks it over. He straightens as if a great weight has been lifted from his shoulders.] You're... right Picard. I'd been deluding myself about this... about her.
Picard: [offers him a hand] Its not too late.
Kirk: [takes hand]
The other is Romulans in place of the Duras sisters. I think it would have helped with the intrigue.
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, I like ST: Gen as it is
I would've re-written the whole damn thing...all it did was ramble and ramble and ramble.
And I would not have killed Kirk. The reason for making the film was to unite TOS and TNG into one fanbase. Unfortunately, all it did was alienate alot of TOS.
I still have friends who are angry over this issue and it's been how long????
And I would not have killed Kirk. The reason for making the film was to unite TOS and TNG into one fanbase. Unfortunately, all it did was alienate alot of TOS.
I still have friends who are angry over this issue and it's been how long????
Whew. That's a weepy scene. Would have been wonderful like that.. and what an homage to bring back Kirk's greatest love (or so it has been presented, I was never that convinced).
I would have altered that dialogue and tightened it up but it works for me.
Re: Kirk's part in Generations...
The studio definitely did fear that not enough Trek film customers would accept a Trek movie series without Kirk, but the main purpose of Kirk being in the Generations wasn't really to try to turn TOS movie fans into TNG movie fans (although I'm sure they were hoping for that too). Kirk had to die for the TNG films to succeed, and I don't think that TUC would have worked if they killed off Kirk in that film. That was a retirement of the whole crew type of film that ended appropriately for that mood, a final adventure in which they start the long peace process between the UFP and the Klingons.
Kirk was there in Generations to pass officially the torch from film captain to film captain. Kirk absolutely had to die for that to fully take effect. If Kirk hadn't died then you would have had even more comparisons between the TOS and TNG movies with many fans constantly clamoring for Kirk's return. Kirk had to die to help Trek fans accept that he was gone for the sake on non-Kirk Trek. Kirk retiring and living happily ever after until the end of his days would just seem like a lame ending for such an epic hero. Kirk is dead. Whether you liked exactly how they did or not, the torch had been passed from Kirk to Picard.
With that criteria, I think they did a decent job overall. They wrote a story that incorporated themes relavent to this passing of the torch. The title of Generations not only refers to TNG as product identity. It also refers to the two different generations of starship captains whom the torch is being passed between. Since Kirk had to die, the film title also refers to a theme for Picard related to mortality: his new regret that he had never produced offspring to carry on the family history now that his only brother and nephew had died. Kirk served to help resolve Picard's sense of loss by reminding him that he was really making a difference as a starship captain, a lesson that Kirk learned in the previous Trek films after accepting promotion and feeling old and stangant without his command. This is all tied together by Picard's realization that his family history had lead him to a more important tradition, that of being an Enterprise captain. Thematically, this movie works.
Despite the fact that retirement was appropriate for the crew end of the previous film, it seems that for a character like Kirk, retirement would never do. It would make him feel old like being an admiral had. So it seems fitting that early in his retirement he heroicly sacrificed his life to save the new Enterprise. That seems a fitting death for an epic hero, at least how history remembers his death. And his first death had to be by saving the Enterprise-B, next in the generations of Enterprises after his two ships. And despite the fact that you may be disappointed by exactly how Kirk died his real final death, you have to acknowledge that at least they gave Kirk two deaths in the film. Kirk is just too big for one death!
And there was no need for Kirk to return to the Nexus anyway, because he is still there and always will be...
The studio definitely did fear that not enough Trek film customers would accept a Trek movie series without Kirk, but the main purpose of Kirk being in the Generations wasn't really to try to turn TOS movie fans into TNG movie fans (although I'm sure they were hoping for that too). Kirk had to die for the TNG films to succeed, and I don't think that TUC would have worked if they killed off Kirk in that film. That was a retirement of the whole crew type of film that ended appropriately for that mood, a final adventure in which they start the long peace process between the UFP and the Klingons.
Kirk was there in Generations to pass officially the torch from film captain to film captain. Kirk absolutely had to die for that to fully take effect. If Kirk hadn't died then you would have had even more comparisons between the TOS and TNG movies with many fans constantly clamoring for Kirk's return. Kirk had to die to help Trek fans accept that he was gone for the sake on non-Kirk Trek. Kirk retiring and living happily ever after until the end of his days would just seem like a lame ending for such an epic hero. Kirk is dead. Whether you liked exactly how they did or not, the torch had been passed from Kirk to Picard.
With that criteria, I think they did a decent job overall. They wrote a story that incorporated themes relavent to this passing of the torch. The title of Generations not only refers to TNG as product identity. It also refers to the two different generations of starship captains whom the torch is being passed between. Since Kirk had to die, the film title also refers to a theme for Picard related to mortality: his new regret that he had never produced offspring to carry on the family history now that his only brother and nephew had died. Kirk served to help resolve Picard's sense of loss by reminding him that he was really making a difference as a starship captain, a lesson that Kirk learned in the previous Trek films after accepting promotion and feeling old and stangant without his command. This is all tied together by Picard's realization that his family history had lead him to a more important tradition, that of being an Enterprise captain. Thematically, this movie works.
Despite the fact that retirement was appropriate for the crew end of the previous film, it seems that for a character like Kirk, retirement would never do. It would make him feel old like being an admiral had. So it seems fitting that early in his retirement he heroicly sacrificed his life to save the new Enterprise. That seems a fitting death for an epic hero, at least how history remembers his death. And his first death had to be by saving the Enterprise-B, next in the generations of Enterprises after his two ships. And despite the fact that you may be disappointed by exactly how Kirk died his real final death, you have to acknowledge that at least they gave Kirk two deaths in the film. Kirk is just too big for one death!
And there was no need for Kirk to return to the Nexus anyway, because he is still there and always will be...
Re: Kirk's part in Generations...
An echo of Kirk anyway because that's what Guinan described herself as to Picard when she appeared in his fantasy...he'll be there but it won't actually be Kirk. I can see the creative problems the writers had when coming up with a decent story to tell of how to bridge both series together. Time travel would have to be utilized in some fashion but the plot of the nexus just wasn't very convincing. The movie isn't as bad as some fans would believe...I enjoy it...but there is something definitely missing in it. Unlike "Relics" which featured Scotty and acted as another "passing" the torch episode and "Unification Parts I and II" those felt like TNG episodes with TOS guest stars. Generations didn't feel like a TNG movie though.
An echo of Kirk anyway because that's what Guinan described herself as to Picard when she appeared in his fantasy...he'll be there but it won't actually be Kirk. I can see the creative problems the writers had when coming up with a decent story to tell of how to bridge both series together. Time travel would have to be utilized in some fashion but the plot of the nexus just wasn't very convincing. The movie isn't as bad as some fans would believe...I enjoy it...but there is something definitely missing in it. Unlike "Relics" which featured Scotty and acted as another "passing" the torch episode and "Unification Parts I and II" those felt like TNG episodes with TOS guest stars. Generations didn't feel like a TNG movie though.
Yeah! Because one Captain crying in this movie just isn't enough.
