Captain Jellico: Totally Awesome, or Lame?

[Cyke101]

"Get it done." Ass.

I may disagree with several of your points, but I have to admit, this line made me lol. Kudos to you, Trekker! Kudos to you

I find that most Trekfen who *don't* like Jellico tend toward the touchy-feely left-of-center, and have little military experience or real understanding of such hierarchical organizations, while those who like Jellico tend to be more on the right, and/or have military experience or at least an understanding of military history and traditions.

Frankly, I don't think I would classify Jellico and Picard like that. A number of higher-ups in the modern day US military are like Jellico but identify themselves as left of center on several issues, and I'm pretty sure (though I'm no expert) that several diplomats are idealistic and articulate like Picard but have different politics.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I find that most Trekfen who *don't* like Jellico tend toward the touchy-feely left-of-center, and have little military experience or real understanding of such hierarchical organizations.

I honestly don't see why Starfleet has to be so hardassed. I mean we are talking about 400 years of advancement in human relations. 50 years ago everybody at IBM was required to wear grey suits and fedoras where as now a lot of places are casual Fridays.

Two-hundred years ago the British navy flogged its sailors and kept them half-drunk with grog, compare that with modern navies.

I like how startrek always mirrored contemporary issues and cultures through alien spieces.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I think a lot of Jellico's behavior can be explained by the need to establish command authority when you step into a pre-existing team. I think he overplayed it a bit with Riker, but really, if you asked the Lower Decks folks I bet they wouldn't have seen too much difference between the two captains. I'd be willing to be that, from their perspective, both men were scary hardasses.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'd be willing to be that, from their perspective, both men were scary hardasses.

Especially when you consider Picard's rather cringe-inducing stuffy-n-stiff demeanor in the 1st season....

while those who like Jellico tend to be more on the right, and/or have... at least an understanding of military history and traditions.

Y'know...I would seem to be living proof of that....

Dunno about your point about the "other side" of the Jellico debate, though....

 

[L1A1 Rocker]

As much as I like Sisko, I think Jellico would have made a great commander for the station.

Now THAT is an interesting idea. . .

Seriously, given everything we know about Jellico, why?

Seriously, did you read my previous post? Seriously.

Seriously, given the results of the survey, why do you seriously ask?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Seriously?

 

[L1A1 Rocker]

Seriously?

Seriously!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Seriously?

Seriously!

He's super Cereal!

 

[Trekker4747]

I think a lot of Jellico's behavior can be explained by the need to establish command authority when you step into a pre-existing team. I think he overplayed it a bit with Riker, but really, if you asked the Lower Decks folks I bet they wouldn't have seen too much difference between the two captains. I'd be willing to be that, from their perspective, both men were scary hardasses.

Riker put it best, as I echoed above, when he and Jelico had an encounter in Riker's quarters. Where Riker told Jelico that Jelico didn't inspire confidence in his crew and didn't motivate people to go the extra mile for him, or gain any respect. He just got everyone wound up so tight they just the "best they could" to keep Jelico out of their ass. That's not a good way to lead.

Jelico was really harsh on Riker, saying that Riker wasn't a good first officer (Picard's faith in him, Starfleet's offering him a command twice, and pretty much every episode of the series shows us otherwise). Riker was, perhaps, out of line when he yelled at Jelico and questioned his orders but it seemed to me Riker was doing his "job" better and with more spirit of Starfleet's main overall goals and aims. He was a bit smug when he wanted Jelico to ask him to do the mission, but I guess from Riker's POV he wanted Jelico to show an ounce of two of humility.

Jelico was an over-demanding ass. Sure, you can say he was more military and "more real" but people keep forgetting that that isn't the kind of military Starfleet is. It's a much more open and "easy-going" military than the kind of a hard-ass marching around barking orders at people and not having any room for discussion or question.

Jelico was just too much and not an effective leader. A good leader doesn't get their crew afraid to talk to him about problems and concerns and wind them up so tight.

"The ship is yours, Jean-Luc. Just as you left her, perhaps a little better."

Ass

 

[SilentP]

^ That's why SF was the organisation fighting the Dominion War...

Yes, but that was an extraordinairy, dire, situation. Most of the time they're not fighting wars they're exploring and setting up relations with other races.

Did you not, like, watch all of this series and TOS?

Quoted from a script of Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan.

DAVID

Mistake? We're all alone here. They waited until everyone was on
leave to do this. Reliant is supposed to be at our disposal, not vice-versa.

MADISON

It seems clear Starfleet never intended that -

CAROL

I know that! But I can't -

DAVID

I've tried to warn you before! Scientists have always been pawns of the military -

That seems to make the position of Starfleet in the Federation fairly clear.

 

[cultcross]

^ Or one person's opinion on the subject, anyway. Someone with a vested interest in disliking Starfleet.

 

[JB2005]

^ yeah, but i take the enterprises to be the exception rather than the rule...

The Enterprise was the one out there flying the flag, and probably a few others, but you're going to want the vast majority of your fleet defending the home worlds...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Obviously the Federation Starfleet is a military. It's got ships, fleets, ranks, a chain of command, the Academy, the whole thing. It doesn't mean that all Starfleet does is fight wars. Our military has plenty of things to do when it's not fighting. Same with this.

Starfleet is military, just not *militaristic*. There is a difference.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Oh, come on...not another "Is Starfleet Military?" debate....

Funny--I would've assumed Picard's line in "Samaritan Snare" ("Starfleet is not a military orginization--it's purpose is peaceful exploration.") would've put this war TO REST!

Seriously....

 

[Meredith]

I would serve with Picard for peacetime duty and with Jellico for the Dominion War.

 

[Admiral2]

Oh, come on...not another "Is Starfleet Military?" debate....

Funny--I would've assumed Picard's line in "Samaritan Snare" ("Starfleet is not a military orginization--it's purpose is peaceful exploration.") would've put this war TO REST!

Seriously....

The debate rages on because what we've observed of Starfleet is often so totally at odds with that very quote. Peaceful Exploration Agencies - like NASA, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, etc. - don't spend a whole bunch of their time shooting at their nation's enemies. On the other hand, that's Starfleet's JOB!.

 

[Admiral Bear]

I see quite a lot of similarities between Jellico and Ben Maxwell from The Wounded.

I think Picard's closing speech about Maxwell at the end of that episode sums up how we should view both Maxwell and Jellico. Both men are far better in times of war than in peace, just as Picard was a diplomat suited to peaceful exploration and formation of treaties.

It's debatable how long the Ent-D would've survived long term under Picard during a sustained period of war.

 

[JB2005]

The debate rages on because what we've observed of Starfleet is often so totally at odds with that very quote. Peaceful Exploration Agencies - like NASA, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, etc. - don't spend a whole bunch of their time shooting at their nation's enemies. On the other hand, that's Starfleet's JOB!.

^ This.

If the purpose of the enterprise was peaceful exploration, it wouldn't have any weapons. Nuff said.

 

[Trekker4747]

Oh, come on...not another "Is Starfleet Military?" debate....

Funny--I would've assumed Picard's line in "Samaritan Snare" ("Starfleet is not a military orginization--it's purpose is peaceful exploration.") would've put this war TO REST!

Seriously....

The debate rages on because what we've observed of Starfleet is often so totally at odds with that very quote. Peaceful Exploration Agencies - like NASA, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, etc. - don't spend a whole bunch of their time shooting at their nation's enemies. On the other hand, that's Starfleet's JOB!.

Ummm. Starfleet doesn't exactly spend a bunch of their time shooting at the Federation's enemies. They spend most of THEIR time do scientific research. Starfleet, and the Federation, takes a defensive position. They only shoot their enemies if, well, they're being shot AT.

Starfleet is their for scinetific research and exploration and contact with new alien life. That's their PRIMARY goal and intent. If need-be, yeah, they'll fight an enemy. But they're hardly being constantly attacked or encountering enemies to justify hundreds of starships, which is why those starships aren't patroling Federation space or doing anything offensive. They're finding new civilizations and charting space.

 

[Admiral2]

Oh, come on...not another "Is Starfleet Military?" debate....

Funny--I would've assumed Picard's line in "Samaritan Snare" ("Starfleet is not a military orginization--it's purpose is peaceful exploration.") would've put this war TO REST!

Seriously....

The debate rages on because what we've observed of Starfleet is often so totally at odds with that very quote. Peaceful Exploration Agencies - like NASA, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, etc. - don't spend a whole bunch of their time shooting at their nation's enemies. On the other hand, that's Starfleet's JOB!.

Ummm. Starfleet doesn't exactly spend a bunch of their time shooting at the Federation's enemies.

They spent about four or five seasons worth of DS9 doing it, didn't they? On the other hand, I don't recall hearing anything about how NASA personnel have joined the fight against Al Qaeda.

They spend most of THEIR time do scientific research. Starfleet, and the Federation, takes a defensive position. They only shoot their enemies if, well, they're being shot AT.

Which is fine, but a real exploratory agency usually runs away and asks other agencies to do the shooting back. Since Starfleet does it's own shooting, it's military, or at best, paramilitary.

Starfleet is their for scinetific research and exploration and contact with new alien life. That's their PRIMARY goal and intent. If need-be, yeah, they'll fight an enemy. But they're hardly being constantly attacked or encountering enemies to justify hundreds of starships, which is why those starships aren't patroling Federation space or doing anything offensive. They're finding new civilizations and charting space.

Until the Federation needs a Navy, and no matter what they do in the offseason, Starfleet equips itself, organizes itself and trains itself to be that Navy, which makes it a military.