Captain Jellico: Totally Awesome, or Lame?

[Trekker4747]

I will agree though that Riker acts like a punk in the bulk of the second episode.

But Riker starts off doing his job right, saying in 10Fwd he was going to talk to Jelico about the Delta Shift, where as Jelico expected people to just instantly adapt to a brand-new duty schedule. If they instantly changed the schedule as Jelico wanted it'd likely mean someone has to cut short the sleep/down time. Not good for morale one bit. Then, as you pointed out, he reassigns engineers to security and chastizes LaForge for not making engineering changes and insists LaForge and the other engieering staff work around the clock to make the changes. Yeah. That's going to go over GREAT for morale and really make the crew trust you, like you, and have your back.

Now, true, once relieved of duty Riker starts acting like a bitch. And smugly "making" Jelico ask for his help was just a pure dick move. But, frankly, Jelico deserved it. Jelico was an ass from the very second he stepped off the transporter pad and treated everyone one as, well, subordinates who weren't deserving of opinions, freedom to do their jobs unsupervised, or whos opinions even mattered. All he had to do was listen to Riker say something like, "The department heads feel that instantly changing the shifts won't be good for morale. But, I assure you we will have the four duty-shift cycle set up by this time tomorrow." But no, Jelico cuts Riker short -infront of a friend and former CO, and in a public area- dresses him down, and then blasts him to Picard after Riker is gone.

"Get it done." Ass.

He reminds me of a manager I had once. Everyone hated the guy because all he did was go around making unreasonable demands, all up in people's shit all of the time and didn't trust anyone to do their job without going through him first for every, single, little thing. People worked for him just enough to keep him quiet but weren't willing to give him more because they didn't respect him. We rejoyced when that ass was gone.

It's fitting that Data made such a good XO for Jelico. Jelico was very android-ish in the way he managed and handled people and Data's frank and logical way of understanding things -"Sure, they can work around the clock to get this done. Do'oh humans need sleep and rest!" and undying loyalty was well suited for Jelico.

Only Data would be a better CO because Data still, on some level, understands people and has a "need" to be liked/respected.

Jelico was a hard-ass not at all suited for Starfleet's primairy mission and drives. He had a fey way of walking too.

 

[trevanian]

Thank God there were just enough commanders in the navy like Picard during the Cuban Crisis of '62, because if there'd been more like Jellico, none of us would be here to debate the question.

Funny, cuz all I think of with Picard at his most plodding is Neville Chamberlain. Go back to Q WHO and see how long it takes him before he turns his dog loose on the borg who has beamed into engineering.

Really?

I assume you mean the Chamberlain of September 1938 Munich Agreement infamy. Feel free to correct me if I've misjudged.

But if that is what you do mean, then you are wrong on so many counts it's almost embarrassing to point them out to you.

Therefore, I'll be brief in describing the essence of your category failures.

Prime Minister Chamberlain of Britain is not synonymous with the captain of an exploration vessel (however significant that ship might be to the nation-state) of a fleet under the ultimate control of his political masters.

Hitler (a monster as it turned out, but a very human one) is not synonymous with Q (an omnipotent being).

If anything, Picard is at fault - on the terms of your own own historical reference - because he plays Churchill two years too early by calling Q's (Hitler's) bluff when he can't back up his "we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them on the hills" bravado with ANYTHING at all.

With belief suspended on several levels, the above basically sums up the situation for Britain in September 1938.

The critical difference is that while Chamberlain's cowardly (in retrospect) deal with Hitler nevertheless provided the UK with an essential year in which to prepare for the inevitable war ahead, Picard (as a captain in the field) was not facing a human foe - but an alien and omnipotent one - that as he was very soon (as within minutes) to discover could neither be beaten nor appeased.

Please note, that I wasn't comparing Picard to JFK, but to certain commanders in the field during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

One is the captain of a Soviet nuclear armed submarine, and the other is the captain of one of the first U.S. ships to encounter the Soviet fleet on its way to Cuba.

My point remains valid.

Your post, however many days it took you to compose it, still seems suspect.

IMO, Picard is a diplomat masquerading as a starship captain most of the time.

Q has THE POTENTIAL for monstrosity on an unparalleled level, and has demonstrated that with his treatment of other species, which does make him a valid (for contemp audiences) comparison point for Hitler.

 

[trevanian]

Yes we do and no it's not just speculation on my part. There are many, many volumes specifically devoted to the Missile Crisis. I have nine and I've read them. And listened to the tapes.

Please don't make assumptions about another's knowledge based merely upon your own lack thereof.

And you should probably not overestimate the value of the contents of what you've read. Winners write or often edit the history books (and their flunkies edit the tapes.)

I've read just about every published word on the JFK assassination, and on the USS LIBERTY, and even though most of it just reaffirms what I already believed, I don't bother to trot it out in casual conversation, because once you go to a certain point with documented info, the other side will go into 'eye roll' mode. And it isn't because they are stupid or uninformed; it is just that you've forced them into a receive mode for way too much data, and they are NOT getting it in the same context -- or with the same mindset -- from when it was presented to you. I've certainly been guilty of this kind of overkill here myself, with respect to more petty trek-related matters.

If this was more cleverly framed I'd call it a straw man argument, but as it's not, I'll name it for what it is - irrelevant.

I offered it as a light flag for you to consider how your post might be perceived by some others; in retrospect, I should have simply taken you more lightly and dismissed you as somebody who proves the axiom that a little information is a dangerous thing.

 

[LaBarre]

Funny, cuz all I think of with Picard at his most plodding is Neville Chamberlain. Go back to Q WHO and see how long it takes him before he turns his dog loose on the borg who has beamed into engineering.

Really?

I assume you mean the Chamberlain of September 1938 Munich Agreement infamy. Feel free to correct me if I've misjudged.

But if that is what you do mean, then you are wrong on so many counts it's almost embarrassing to point them out to you.

Therefore, I'll be brief in describing the essence of your category failures.

Prime Minister Chamberlain of Britain is not synonymous with the captain of an exploration vessel (however significant that ship might be to the nation-state) of a fleet under the ultimate control of his political masters.

Hitler (a monster as it turned out, but a very human one) is not synonymous with Q (an omnipotent being).

If anything, Picard is at fault - on the terms of your own own historical reference - because he plays Churchill two years too early by calling Q's (Hitler's) bluff when he can't back up his "we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them on the hills" bravado with ANYTHING at all.

With belief suspended on several levels, the above basically sums up the situation for Britain in September 1938.

The critical difference is that while Chamberlain's cowardly (in retrospect) deal with Hitler nevertheless provided the UK with an essential year in which to prepare for the inevitable war ahead, Picard (as a captain in the field) was not facing a human foe - but an alien and omnipotent one - that as he was very soon (as within minutes) to discover could neither be beaten nor appeased.

Please note, that I wasn't comparing Picard to JFK, but to certain commanders in the field during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

One is the captain of a Soviet nuclear armed submarine, and the other is the captain of one of the first U.S. ships to encounter the Soviet fleet on its way to Cuba.

My point remains valid.

Your post, however many days it took you to compose it, still seems suspect.

IMO, Picard is a diplomat masquerading as a starship captain most of the time.

Q has THE POTENTIAL for monstrosity on an unparalleled level, and has demonstrated that with his treatment of other species, which does make him a valid (for contemp audiences) comparison point for Hitler.

It was you who made the Chamberlain connection. I merely tried to flesh out what I took to be your argument and bring it to its logical conclusion.

You should take it as a compliment that I made an effort to address your point, however long you assume that process took. It did intrigue me, but in the end I found it totally unpersuasive and have said as much. Doesn't matter how you slice it, Q does not = Hitler.

Although your latest point about Picard being more a diplomat (as distinct from = Chamberlian) is probably correct, but context is everything.

At the relevant time, the Federation was not at war and Starfleet was not the Marine Corps, and the Enterprise was supposed to be a vessel of exploration, you know - with a mission of visiting strange new worlds and seeking out new life and new civilisations.

Picard seems much better suited to this task than Jellico ever would be, IMO.

 

[trevanian]

As much as I like Sisko, I think Jellico would have made a great commander for the station.

I didn't 'get' this when reading the thread earlier, but as a major rethink of DS9, it could have been fantastic to send TNG's wannabe Patton to run DS9, and then have him become a bit more enlightened/open-minded following exposure to the wormhole aliens. He certainly would have been an even more reluctant prophet to Bajor.

It would have been a lot less risky dramatically than having a character who was recessive like Sisko, who originally came off with some of the downside I associate with Hunter's Pike -- somebody who doesn't know if he wants to be there, with a portrayal that didn't make me feel strongly about whether I missed the show or not for quite awhile.

 

[LaBarre]

I offered it as a light flag for you to consider how your post might be perceived by some others; in retrospect, I should have simply taken you more lightly and dismissed you as somebody who proves the axiom that a little information is a dangerous thing.

I promise that this will be my last post with you on this, trevanian, because you are just being disengeneous.

Let's review:

RobertScorpio made a statement about his experience in the navy having seen more commanders like Jellico than Picard.

While not in any position to disagree with him (nor wishing to), I noted that it was lucky that there were more Picards than Jellicos out in the field during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Not sure if RobertScorpio took this as a criticism of his experience - which it wasn't BTW. In any event he responded that this was just speculation on my part and that we will never know what happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

When I was able to support my statement that we could indeed know what happened, by referencing the plentitude of available historical evidence and the fact that I had studied that evidence, RobertScorpio had a few choices available to him:

a. ignore my post.
b. backtrack slightly on the "just speculation" meme.
c. provide some historical evidence on the issue at hand to counter my claim.

He opted for a.

You, on the other hand, decide that this is the moment to reveal how much you've read about the Kennedy assassination and to emphasise that you don't flaunt it, the message being (I presume) that I shouldn't have bothered trying to back up my statement by referencing my actual knowledge of the historical evidence, even though RobertScorpio's post about "speculation" necessitated that I do so.

When I have the temerity to call you on this, you throw dolly out of the pram.

A little knowledge may indeed be a dangerous thing, trevanian, but as your posts about Chamberlain and Hitler show, no knowledge at all is a menace.

 

[trevanian]

I offered it as a light flag for you to consider how your post might be perceived by some others; in retrospect, I should have simply taken you more lightly and dismissed you as somebody who proves the axiom that a little information is a dangerous thing.

I promise that this will be my last post with you on this, trevanian, because you are just being disengeneous.

Let's review:

No, let's not.

Just take a look at the first sentence you quoted above; THAT Is the main notion behind my original lengthy response, not a rejection or repudiation of your studies. Happy trails.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Oy, vey....

 

[Vonstadt]

I actually liked Jellico and definitely would've served with him. I thought the writers dropped the ball in their attempts to make him look like too much of a hard ass and the TNG crew justified in their actions. Jellico had a directive, a mission and knew what the heck he was talking about.

Riker came off looking like a spoiled ass.

I also liked his 'Get it Done' attitude. he was as I recall pressed by the clock of the growing crisis and I think pretty much ost of what he did and how he did it was justifiable.

I don't really think he has been handled well in the Trek Lit that follows the show and I think that is mostly due to some folks not understanding the character who was supposed to come off as one thing...but ended up taking on a life of his own.

Ronny Cox did an excellent job with the character, much like he did with his role in ROBOCOP and even as the National Guard officer in TAPS.

Just my two cents

Vons

 

[Anticitizen]

It's hard to tell how the writers intended for his character to come across. I suspect he was intended to come across far less sympathetic than he did, and the actor's performance lent a great deal of... unintended competence to the role.

Then again, him saving the situation (and Picard) was part of the script, so maybe not.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think the actor himself added a lot of "corporately driven evil asshole" to the role. Considering that's the chatacter he mostly plays in his more obvious roles (Robocop and Total Recall of note.)

 

[JB2005]

I could never understand the position of the Enterprise Crew in this episode, "Picard would never have done this" boo-hoo. They were given a commander who didn't do things the same way as their previous captain, and they decided to take it to heart.

Jellico was a hard-ass, no question. He was probably a commander better suited to war, and dealing with enemies than he was with delicate trade negotiations. Well since it was looking incredibly likely that the Federation would be going to war with Cardassia, then that's exactly the kind of guy you would want commanding the Flagship. Afterall, Starfleet is the military, not the diplomatic corps.

Even with the argument that the Flagship's Captain needs to be more versatile, Jellico obviously has some diplomatic credentials because he was involved in creating the armistace, which we are given to understand took alot of negotiating.

Spoiler: Losing the Peace Spolier Follows

Plus this is the man, who if the novels are to be taken into account would one day become the CinC of the Federation Starfleet, at the same time Jean-Luc Picard was still just a Captain. Now I know the argument "he'd never leave the Captain's chair, it's where he belongs" but clearly Jellico belonged higher in the chain of command than everyone else. Plus he realised his failings and resigned as CinC because his personal honour demanded it, for failing to act against the borg invasion better.

Finally, he was a Captain, this means two things:

1) He outranks everyone else on that ship, and so they just had to shut up and get on with it, they have a problem with it, talk to Riker, who takes it to Jellico, not go bitching and moaning to Picard. And if Jellico chooses not to listen to it, well that's his decision.

2) Starfleet does not hand out that fourth pip in a lucky bag. Jellico didn't get the rank for making 500 posts on the TrekBBS, he must have earned the rank.

 

[Gul Bones]

Whatever he was, he was certainly entertaining to watch.

 

[24thcenstfan]

I think he is a jerk, but I suppose Starfleet needs the occasional hard*** Captain to handle some of the more sticky "this mess needs to be cleaned up and I'm not going to take your crap" kind of situations.

I would never want to serve under his Command long-term though.

 

[SilentP]

I wonder if captains like Jellico are created in an era like that of 24th Century from certain encounters that Starfleet has, if that makes sense. Most captains around then you'd imagine ending up with a lookout on life somewhat similar to Picard due to the relative peace that the Federation enjoys, so I wonder what events help to create captains like Jellico, who I reckon are probably in the minority.

 

[AJBryant]

I would love to hang around with Picard. I'd love to talk to him.

Jellico? I'd serve under him in a heartbeat. The man knows how to be a captain.

I find that most Trekfen who *don't* like Jellico tend toward the touchy-feely left-of-center, and have little military experience or real understanding of such hierarchical organizations, while those who like Jellico tend to be more on the right, and/or have military experience or at least an understanding of military history and traditions.

I don't think that's a 100% correlation, but I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming percentages fall that way. There's a certain margin of error, too, I allow for people who *know* (or should know) better, but are such rabid Trekkies that *their* crew, even when wrong, must actually be RIGHT, so Jellico, even though right, has to be wrong.

For those who comment about Picards vs. Jellicos during the Cuban Missile Crisis: I maintain that the entire mindset and leadership style (heh) of a Picard is a product of our 60s and 70s. You wouldn't have found many (if any) Picards in command in the 50s and early 60s; we were a different culture, with different values, and the whole touchy-feely thing Picard is so famous for is a product of those kids having grown up. It's part of the reason there used to be that big Kirk-vs-Picard thing. Kirk was a commander in the style of his era; Picard was a commander in the style of his.

Jellico was a "throwback" to when commanders were real commanders rather than everyone's buddy. That's why so many (especially young people) don't like his style.

 

[Trekker4747]

Afterall, Starfleet is the military, not the diplomatic corps..

You got that backwards.

 

[JB2005]

^ That's why SF was the organisation fighting the Dominion War...

 

[Admiral2]

The whole "Cuban Missile Crisis" debate is a red herring in this instance.

The 60's and 70's were a time when commanders in the field had nowhere near the amount of autonomy they mostly enjoy today and naval captains have traditionally enjoyed. The entire Vietnam War, for instance, was micromanaged mostly from the Pentagon and the White House. So it wouldn't matter if Picard or Jellico were commanding a ship in the blockade, or if both of them were there. They wouldn't be able to do jack without running it by John, Bobby and Robert McNamara.

A more relevant example comes from World War II. You're the only battlewagon in the middle of the Pacific with a Japanese task force bearing down on you. Who do you want in charge? Mr. "Make it so" or Mr. "Get it done"?

As I've already stated, Jellico is THE MAN!

 

[Trekker4747]

^ That's why SF was the organisation fighting the Dominion War...

Yes, but that was an extraordinairy, dire, situation. Most of the time they're not fighting wars they're exploring and setting up relations with other races.

Did you not, like, watch all of this series and TOS?