Can you transport anti-matter?
- Thread starter t_smitts
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Well, the idea that one engine nacelle is the matter engine/generator and the other is the antimatter engine/generator (Perhaps deserving a thread of its own?) does have some utility in smoothing over some minor discontinuities in TOS/TAS, provided we allow for the mixing of the matter-antimatter in a central reactor, but in the end I think it crates more problems than it solves.
Well I'm not an advocate of the "central reactor" setup most days, but in any case that is not quite what I was suggesting.
Using the dialogue from OOOPIM, I propose that each nacelle has within it antimatter management machinery (AKA antimatter engine) and matter machinery (AKA matter engine). Each nacelle mixes its own matter and antimatter, with the reactant output delivered directly into the warp coils. In an emergency, a properly working (i.e. regenerated) nacelle can be used the "jump start" the other one, but otherwise they tend to operate independently (albeit in tandem)
Or then one nacelle indeed is "the antimatter nacelle" as Scotty puts it, and earns this distinction by featuring the jumpstart chamber where antimatter can be directly injected (rather than be fed into the usual central reactor). The other nacelle is "regular", lacking the jumpstart gear.
The "matter engines" could be the auxiliary, fusion systems, also currently drained. Scotty just says that he can deal with those later.
It's not really as if Scotty's remedy to the crisis would fully normalize things. All he says is that " We'd have enough power for the engines and the shields to go on maximum again.", which doesn't sound like everything would be back to normal again.
So resorting to this all-new variant of antimatter that regenerates just gives them a fighting chance, just like natural dilithium jewelry helped them in "Elaan of Troyius". It's not how the ship's intended to operate normally.
Timo Saloniemi
The "matter engines" could be the auxiliary, fusion systems, also currently drained. Scotty just says that he can deal with those later.
It's not really as if Scotty's remedy to the crisis would fully normalize things. All he says is that " We'd have enough power for the engines and the shields to go on maximum again.", which doesn't sound like everything would be back to normal again.
So resorting to this all-new variant of antimatter that regenerates just gives them a fighting chance, just like natural dilithium jewelry helped them in "Elaan of Troyius". It's not how the ship's intended to operate normally.
Timo Saloniemi
Interesting take!
I should point out though, that the term "antimatter nacelles" has been used before, when Spock was describing the wreckage of the SS Beagle in Bread And Circuses.
So, did the Beagle just have a lot of "jump start-able" nacelles? Seems odd that they would, if the Enterprise only has one.
I should point out though, that the term "antimatter nacelles" has been used before, when Spock was describing the wreckage of the SS Beagle in Bread And Circuses.
So, did the Beagle just have a lot of "jump start-able" nacelles? Seems odd that they would, if the Enterprise only has one.
This is pretty much my thinking, except that I am leaning toward a single warp drive reactor model. The issue isn’t so much the location of “the” warp reactor (not in the nacelles apparently), but whether there is more than one M/A-M reactor, how many, and where?
A distinction has to be made between engine and reactor on the one hand, and warp drive reactor specifically vs. just M/A-M reactor(s) in general, on the other.
Definitely. And even our heroes might take shortcuts in the dialogue there, referring to one while meaning the other when the context sufficiently clears up things.
I'd love for the Beagle to be of some fairly exotic design. Perhaps with outboard fuel nacelles, as only the brave soldiers of Starfleet agree to sleep in the same room with antimatter?
Timo Saloniemi
I'd love for the Beagle to be of some fairly exotic design. Perhaps with outboard fuel nacelles, as only the brave soldiers of Starfleet agree to sleep in the same room with antimatter?
Timo Saloniemi
And even whether they relate to the main power system or the warp drive in any fashion. "Catspaw" isn't specific, and in fact mentions that impulse engines are part of the plan DeSalle puts to action by employing reactors 1 through 3...
One might argue that DeSalle bothering to specify "1 , 2 and 3" is proof enough that there are 4 or more of these reactors in existence...
Timo Saloniemi
One might argue that DeSalle bothering to specify "1 , 2 and 3" is proof enough that there are 4 or more of these reactors in existence...
Timo Saloniemi
No antimatter in the "Catspaw" reactors, is my bet. That's simply too much for merely electrifying the outer hull and heating things up...
Just four fusion reactors, with DeSalle keeping one in the reserve. That one, and the warp engines - if it's okay for Spock to cut losses and run, it should be okay for DeSalle!
Timo Saloniemi
Just four fusion reactors, with DeSalle keeping one in the reserve. That one, and the warp engines - if it's okay for Spock to cut losses and run, it should be okay for DeSalle!
Timo Saloniemi
Well Desalle did initially just mention the Impulse Engines when trying to generate heat. However, cutting and running isn't really an option once the forcefield appears though.
Having said that, their efforts to generate a powerful electrical field are so minuscule that Uhura didn't spot the "dent" in the field at first. Maybe its simply not possible to channel the output of the Warp Engines into the electrical relay stations without burning said status out? In any case, it doesn't necessarily preclude the Impulse Engines using antimatter, just in vastly smaller quantities than the Warp systems.
The only thing we know for sure is (from Day Of Dove) that Reactor 3 is near a corridor junction, so definitely not in a nacelle.
Having said that, their efforts to generate a powerful electrical field are so minuscule that Uhura didn't spot the "dent" in the field at first. Maybe its simply not possible to channel the output of the Warp Engines into the electrical relay stations without burning said status out? In any case, it doesn't necessarily preclude the Impulse Engines using antimatter, just in vastly smaller quantities than the Warp systems.
The only thing we know for sure is (from Day Of Dove) that Reactor 3 is near a corridor junction, so definitely not in a nacelle.
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Well, let’s see. Didn’t Desalle say to “channel the entire output of reactors number 1, 2 and 3…”? This suggests to me that he is using the maximum number of reactors to muster the maximum amount of energy available. But it could be as Mytran says that this is merely the maximum load the relays can handle, but then, how would Desalle know this beforehand?
Also, since impulse (reactor?) power is already being used, and Desalle was simply adding more of the same to the mix, then wouldn’t he have said something like “channel the entire output of reactors 2, 3and 4…” etc.? This suggests to me that reactors 1, 2 and 3 are of a different type than the one(s) already in use since he felt it necessary to be so specific?
In other words, the use of impulse power was just the “proof of concept” and once they knew their plan worked, they were ready to go all the way with everything they had.
Incidentally, I don’t think an impulse reactor was ever mentioned in TOS, only impulse power or impulse engines. The closest we get is in “The Doomsday Machine” where impulse power is likened to fusion weapons of the 20th century?
Also, since impulse (reactor?) power is already being used, and Desalle was simply adding more of the same to the mix, then wouldn’t he have said something like “channel the entire output of reactors 2, 3and 4…” etc.? This suggests to me that reactors 1, 2 and 3 are of a different type than the one(s) already in use since he felt it necessary to be so specific?
In other words, the use of impulse power was just the “proof of concept” and once they knew their plan worked, they were ready to go all the way with everything they had.
Incidentally, I don’t think an impulse reactor was ever mentioned in TOS, only impulse power or impulse engines. The closest we get is in “The Doomsday Machine” where impulse power is likened to fusion weapons of the 20th century?
Slightly more on topic, I’ve been rereading the TNG tech manual and it does provide for starships to create their own anti-matter with a process related to transporter technology, whereby the charge and spin of particles are flipped or reversed on the subatomic/quantum level.
However the process is very inefficient and energy intensive and it is therefore not deemed practical under ordinary circumstances for ships to refuel themselves by this method, but is there for emergencies just in case.
I think Timo may be on the right track, what we saw in TAS (OOOPIM) was a special case where the space creature’s own regenerating anti-matter villi was used to augment the Enterprise’s own anti-matter generators, thus greatly increasing the speed and efficiency of the process for just this one time?
However the process is very inefficient and energy intensive and it is therefore not deemed practical under ordinary circumstances for ships to refuel themselves by this method, but is there for emergencies just in case.
I think Timo may be on the right track, what we saw in TAS (OOOPIM) was a special case where the space creature’s own regenerating anti-matter villi was used to augment the Enterprise’s own anti-matter generators, thus greatly increasing the speed and efficiency of the process for just this one time?
DeSalle is giving orders about "channeling". I'd assume every reactor is already producing juice, and DeSalle is just telling to shunt some of it to a new application at this stage of the plan. That is, 1, 2 and 3 get to work on X while 4, 5 and 6 don't. And it sounds more natural to channel "the entire output of 1, 2 and 3" than "half the output of reactors 1 through 6" or some other more complex combination.
Yet the TNG TM then proceeds to describe that "inefficiency" in black box terms, stating that by spending ten kilograms of deuterium, you get a kilogram of antideuterium. Since you can then annihilate that antimatter, that's actually fantastically efficient, and produces a gigantic net gain in energy! No wonder nobody bothers to conserve energy in the 24th century.
Or am I drawing the borders of that black box wrong?
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, Sternbach and Okuda use a lot of techno-babble gobbledygook to hide the fact that they really don’t know what they’re talking about. But the basic idea that antimatter can be generated is there though, for what it’s worth.
Another thing I came across was that “earlier” ships had compartmentalized antimatter tankage in place but due to the stresses starships undergo in the course of their missions it was deemed undesirable from a safety standpointto to use such a design.
It’s not specified how much “earlier” such tech was employed or when it was discontinued, but if we include the TOS era then this would account for the antimatter reserves in the nacelles of the TOS Enterprise.
Another thing I came across was that “earlier” ships had compartmentalized antimatter tankage in place but due to the stresses starships undergo in the course of their missions it was deemed undesirable from a safety standpointto to use such a design.
It’s not specified how much “earlier” such tech was employed or when it was discontinued, but if we include the TOS era then this would account for the antimatter reserves in the nacelles of the TOS Enterprise.
So you're positing central reactor(s) for the Warp systems, with spare antimatter in the nacelles?
If so, then perhaps the light show on the nacelle end caps is actually the antimatter being generated prior to tankage? It would certainly justify references to the "antimatter nacelles" that way
If so, then perhaps the light show on the nacelle end caps is actually the antimatter being generated prior to tankage? It would certainly justify references to the "antimatter nacelles" that way
Possibly, but the light show in the domes may more likely be matter collected by the Bussards in a gaseous state with “hot spots” of glowing plasma? I see the domes of the TOS E as being complete spherical “pods” with the forward ones for matter storage and the aft ones for antimatter, the latter being stored in a condensed cryogenic state -hence the dark non-glowing appearance.
In any case, It’s not just the one reference to “antimatter nacelles” there are several references in TOS to “antimatter pods” in which the context makes it clear that the “warp drive pods” aka the nacelles, are being referred to; so even if “pods” doesn’t refer to the nacelles specifically, its at least very closely associated with them.
There are also several references to “matter-antimatter’ nacelles and “matter-antimatter” pods throughout the series.
And remember, while the warp drive reactor (singular) is centrally located, the warp drive engines (plural) are in the nacelles, so when Spock says in "The Ultimate Computer" “M-5 appears drawing power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves.” We can be sure that the engine/nacelles contain the matter-antimatter fuel.
On the other hand, in "That Which Survives" Scotty says “The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them.” This makes sense since the engines are in the nacelles -way up there on those thin pylons, and therefore not easily accessible under the best of conditions, and certainly not a place you’d want to be when “The engines are running wild”. Yet we do see that Scotty latter accesses the matter-antimatter reaction chamber, so we can infer from this that “the” reactor is not in either of the nacelles.
In any case, It’s not just the one reference to “antimatter nacelles” there are several references in TOS to “antimatter pods” in which the context makes it clear that the “warp drive pods” aka the nacelles, are being referred to; so even if “pods” doesn’t refer to the nacelles specifically, its at least very closely associated with them.
There are also several references to “matter-antimatter’ nacelles and “matter-antimatter” pods throughout the series.
And remember, while the warp drive reactor (singular) is centrally located, the warp drive engines (plural) are in the nacelles, so when Spock says in "The Ultimate Computer" “M-5 appears drawing power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves.” We can be sure that the engine/nacelles contain the matter-antimatter fuel.
On the other hand, in "That Which Survives" Scotty says “The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them.” This makes sense since the engines are in the nacelles -way up there on those thin pylons, and therefore not easily accessible under the best of conditions, and certainly not a place you’d want to be when “The engines are running wild”. Yet we do see that Scotty latter accesses the matter-antimatter reaction chamber, so we can infer from this that “the” reactor is not in either of the nacelles.
Drat, how did I miss that? I suppose we could allow Scotty a certain amount of hyperbole (he can't access the nacelle reactor or warp coils, but he can crawl into the magnetic antimatter bottle) but still, hmmm....
So there's both matter and antimatter stored in the nacelles, yet the reactor is down in the secondary hull? That's an awful lot of piping and looping back on oneself! Also, I'm not sure I like the idea of raw antimatter having to travel past the entire length of (potentially active) Warp Coils in order to top the main storage pods in the secondary hull. The whole process becomes much safer if the antimatter reserves are contained in the forward domes/spheres; the matter tankage (including the reserves) is perfectly fine down in the secondary hull, as it is less volatile to start with!
I agree about the piping going to and from the nacelles and the reactor and back again, and that only antimatter should be in the nacelles, but that's not what we're left with, at least not from from the dialog anyway.
In my "ideal" head canon everything including the reactor would be in each nacelle, which makes everything more tidy and safe, which is the way most writers of TOS assumed it to be.
Plus if the antimatter pods are the semi-spheres at the aft of the nacelles they would/should be independently jettisonable (the main reason for them to be located there), which they apparently are not if we go by the dialog.
In my "ideal" head canon everything including the reactor would be in each nacelle, which makes everything more tidy and safe, which is the way most writers of TOS assumed it to be.
Plus if the antimatter pods are the semi-spheres at the aft of the nacelles they would/should be independently jettisonable (the main reason for them to be located there), which they apparently are not if we go by the dialog.
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