Can you transport anti-matter?

[Mytran]

...what if the impulse engines don't directly use matter fuel? What if impulse engines are powered by energy delivered from impulse power system that normally is charged up by the warp engines (dilithium power conversion) or like in TMP, directly powered by the m/am dilithium system. "Impulse power" then is just power stored in giant batteries and only comes into play as additional power or emergency power is requested.

If not Impulse batteries per se, then I can definitely accept some sort of "header tank" for the Impulse Drive (that possibly contains that pre-energised deuterium I mentioned

OK, after thinking about it please allow me to withdraw that "header tank" blurb, since I realise it's nothing more than a semantic rip off of your idea! TBH I was just trying to create something that wouldn't be incompatible with post-TOS tech. However, all that is required is for the tech to be broadly similar between the 22nd and 24th centuries - and this broad similarity can take many forms. After all, the internal combustion engine still works on the same basic principals today as when it was first introduced. However, even the standard car engine today is smaller, more powerful and more powerful than anything equivalent in the early 0th century. I see the 4th century Impulse Engines in the same light.

Under normal conditions, replacement fuel is generated...drawing from the main deuterium tank in the Engineering Hull. However, too much shield action or high speeds (especially without an a warp drive) will drain it empty. In time the Impulse fuel can be replaced but by then it will too late and the Klingons/Planet Killer will have got ya

This section however, I am keeping

Obviously the Impulse Engines of the 24th Century don't suffer from these same limitations.

 

[blssdwlf]

Under normal conditions, replacement fuel is generated...drawing from the main deuterium tank in the Engineering Hull. However, too much shield action or high speeds (especially without an a warp drive) will drain it empty. In time the Impulse fuel can be replaced but by then it will too late and the Klingons/Planet Killer will have got ya

This section however, I am keeping

Obviously the Impulse Engines of the 24th Century don't suffer from these same limitations.

Forgive me if I don't try to connect to TNG/24th century but I do think you're on to impulse engine fuel being replaced.

In TOS they appear to interchangeably use "fuel", "power" and "energy". For example, in "The Galileo Seven" they used adapted phaser energy as a fuel supply which at the end was jettisoned and ignited like a big gas plume. For that to happen, the phasers appeared to be "fired" into the main reactor in the belly of the shuttlecraft which was converted into fuel which could later be used to lift off and eventually jettisoned.

"The Galileo Seven"

SCOTT: I can adjust the main reactor to function with a substitute fuel supply.
SPOCK: That's all very well, but we don't have a substitute supply.
SCOTT: Aye, we do. Our phasers. I can adapt them and use their energy. It'll take time, but it's possible.
​

And in "Elaan of Troyius", they refer to the "energy status" or presumably stored energy or fuel status of the impulse engines. Scott replies back with a percentage of power which echos back to "TGS" where phaser energy (or power) is used to create fuel through the reactor.

"Elaan of Troyius"

KIRK: They're trying to force a fight. Scotty, what's our energy status?
SCOTT: Ninety three percent of impulse power, sir.
​

What if impulse fuel is energy stored in impulse batteries or capacitors and then created to be held in a reserve tank for the impulse engine to move the ship? It goes to how the impulse system appears to be dependent on pre-existing power stored in it or alternatively powered by main power. And it covers the need to refuel the reserves via other energy sources. This also allows for the ship to not need giant fuel tanks of any sort...

We also have DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice" we find out that their ship's impulse engines use antimatter and is dependent on the warp core. That seems to connect back to "The Naked Time"... Hmm. I gotta rethink this again.

O'BRIEN: Captain, there's no way the Defiant can penetrate the barrier. The energy's composed of subspace metrion radiation. If we get anywhere near it, the dilithium matrix in the warp core will collapse and we'll be pulled down onto the planet surface just like the Olympia.
SISKO: Options?
BASHIR: Could we beam through it?
O'BRIEN: No. We can't get close enough to the barrier to initiate transport.
SISKO: What about a shuttle pod? Their impulse engines don't use antimatter.
​

 

[USS Triumphant]

It's going to be made out of wood, isn't it

:Insert something dirty about a young Lucille Ball and things being wood:

I've pondered this a few times, and that's as good as I could do and stick with the board's general family-friendliness.

 

[Mytran]

We also have DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice" we find out that their ship's impulse engines use antimatter and is dependent on the warp core. That seems to connect back to "The Naked Time"... Hmm. I gotta rethink this again.

Well, just because the shuttlepod Impulse Engine doesn't use antimatter, it doesn't necessarily follow that its larger cousin on a starship has to. I know I bandied that idea around upthread as a way to " spice up" the IE output, but with the development of the theory you've just posted I think that idea can be safely dropped.

If you're referring to the use of main power (via M/AM reactors) to keep the impulse capacitors charged up during normal operations, that certainly is a possible use of antimatter in the system. However, I'm not 100% on using main power like this for the IE and would prefer a series of dedicated impulse energy generators (fueled from the common deuterium tank in the secondary hull). After all, most of the dire situations that we witness can be explained through problems with (or absence of) the nacelles' mass reduction field. The only real exception is WNMHGB, where Kirk explicitly claims that they'd be trapped in orbit if repairs to the Warp Drive were unsuccessful. Perhaps the trip of "several light days" exhausted most of their deuterium supply, even with a mass reduction field? That situation would certainly trap in the solar system, even if technically they could leave the planet (the only M-class one in reach). Was Kirk just being overly dramatic? Hmmmm.

On a side note, although I was initially resistant to the idea of impulse fuel being drawn from stored raw energy, if we are talking some sort of exotic ("magic") energy then it nicely side steps a lot of the physics involved in how the Impulse Drive operates in the first place. Given the compatibility of the IE with hand phasers, I think we are definitely talking some sort of phased energy here.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Perhaps this is a good time to recap similar ideas I’ve been kicking around in my head for awhile.

Is it possible that under normal operating conditions the impulse engines are also powered by a single dedicated A/M reactor? Since there is strong evidence in TOS that matter/antimatter (reserve) fuel is generated/stored in the nacelles -and no evidence of it being anywhere else, it follows that in the event of emergency saucer separation, use of the A/M fuel for the impulse reactor would be out of the question, and a switch to the next best thing -a dedicated fusion reactor- would be needed in such a scenario.

Therefore what we saw in “The Doomsday Machine” where fusion energy was used for impulse power would only be the third or “tertiary” emergency back-up system, since in this episode the “general dampening field” created by the planet killer effectively “deactivated” the anti-matter supply, rendering it useless as a fuel source in any case?

That none of the characters explicitly mentioned that this was the case is in keeping with Roddenberry’s insistence that no time be wasted on irrelevant exposition, since “in a cop show the cop doesn’t stop to explain how his gun works” (or words to that effect).

Also, the supplemental tech for ST: TMP has the vertical intermix chamber tied directly into the impulse engines, implying that they were powered by the (single?) M-A/M reactor system. Thus we see the technological development from TOS to TMP in keeping with the dialogue in the movie that the engines were a radical new design.

This interpretation gives us some wiggle room to consider the possibility that, in addition to the impulse fusion reactor, the matter/antimatter reactor system in TOS consists of 2 reactor cores or chambers, 1 in the engineering hull and 1 in the impulse deck, thus both related to propulsion.

So this way, multiple anti-matter reactors can be onboard -as Spock indicates, but still only one warp drive A/M reactor -as Scotty indicates.

They are both correct!

So what this gives us is a minimum of three “reactors” on board, and lo and behold, that’s the maximum number mentioned elsewhere in the series.

An added advantage of this line of reasoning is that it overcomes a long standing objection to the possibility that the two versions of the engine room we saw in the series are actually two different locations, one in the secondary hull for warp drive, and the other in the primary hull for the impulse engines.

That objection being, that both versions have the same tube chamber adjacent to them, which is presumably the matter/antimatter reactor (or a portion of it). But if impulse engines run off antimatter as well, then now we can see that it would make sense after all for there would be an identical tube camber in both engine rooms!

Perhaps the crucial difference between the two A/M reactors is that only the warp drive reactor uses dilithium to boost its power output?
Given what we’ve seen quoted above from other series, it seems increasingly likely that that something along the lines of A/M powered impulse engines is the direction to explore?

 

[Mytran]

I'm always happy to explore new directions in TOS-tech!

It's also not entirely incompatible with the setup being discussed by Blssdwlf and myself upthread - the "exotic phased energy" capacitors can be charged up by any power source, really. Nothing to say it can't be a smaller, auxilary M/AM reactor.

In addition, there are indications in TNG that saucer modules carry antimatter - in BOBW the separated saucer released an "antimatter spread" as a diversionary tactic against the Borg. While it could have been loaded there especially for the purpose, it would also make sense under your Impulse M/AM reactor setup.

Regarding the "power tube cathedral" structure behind the mesh in the engine room set, your explanation does provide a good justification for why the multiple Engine Room sets look so similar. However, rather than part of a M/AM reactor, I see those tubes as the Power Convertor Assembly (first mentioned in Mudd's Women as an alternative to using the lithium crystals). At this stage it might be worth stating my own interpretation of TOS-E power setup, which differs somewhat from the TNG model:

• Matter and antimatter are mixed in the nacelle interior, with most of the resultant energy forms absorbed directly by the warp coils (without the need for messy TNG-plasma conduits).
• A portion of the energy is diverted down the pylons into Engine Room
• The Power Convertor Assembly changes the raw power into a form usable by ship's systems. The PCM can perform this task alone, although the presence of dilithium crystals makes the process exponentially more efficient.

If there is now also to be an Impulse Deck M/AM reactor I would expect it to be much smaller, perhaps the size of the dinky one in the NX01. When not being used for the IE it is available as an auxiliary reactor to supplement ship's power during emergency adventure situations. A full size PCM is needed as it could be called upon to convert the full energy output of the Impulse Reactor. It probably doesn't have a dilithium component (season 1 Engine Room design).

How does the IE A/AM work out in relation to the episodes?

Mudd's Women: The Warp Engines are undamaged, but with the crystals destroyed and the PCA blown this means that the inertial dampeners, gravity field, deflectors and other life-saving essentials are solely dependant on "battery" power - this may be shorthand for "Reactor 3" which (unlike the nacelles) can't easily replenish it's antimatter supply. In fact, the AM generator may itself be dependant on ship's power, probably a great deal of it! They exhaust all of their Impulse AM fuel on the trip to Rigel, leaving themselves in a "shaky" orbit, solely reliant on the teritary backup fusion reactors.

Doomsday Machine: With all of the Enterprise's antimatter "deactivated", there's only the fusion reactors (fueled by the main deuterium tank). With all the shields, phaser action and high speeds in this episode, this fuel tank will be depleted within 8 hours

WNMHGB: The "space warp" ability of the nacelles is gone, but they must still be able to generate a sufficient mass reduction field to allow the M/AM Impulse Reactor to propel the ship at near lightspeed. The maximum range for this operation is determined at "a few light days", after which there won't be enough AM left in the Impulse reactor to allow them to leave the orbit of Delta Vega (well, certainly not the solar system anyway). No mention is made of the PCA or crystals, so we may be free to assume that those systems are operating normally off the nacelle "mains", even if the nacelles are currently incapable of propulsion.

Elaan of Troyius: Extensive sabotage to the nacelles and related power systems. Bereft of the mass reduction field, the situation is very similar to TDM, and Impulse AM reserves drop rapidly.

Paradise Syndrome: We see the PCA burn itself out, and are told that the warp drive is junk. The Enterprise spends the next 60 days slowly retreating in front of the asteroid. No mention of power problems this time. Is the ship coasting on Newtonian speeds? With no enemies in sight and no high speeds required, it is entirely possible.

All the above situations suggest that once the Impulse AM is gone, it's gone! No process apparently exists for AM to be transferred from the nacelles to the Impulse drive, so presumably a tanker vessel is required (perhaps the red square at the aft of the teardrop is the refuelling port?)
The fusion reactors are probably good for powering life support and keeping the crew alive, but seem very wasteful as a source of propulsion when working without the mass reduction effect of the nacelles.

Lots of food for thought, thanks!

 

[blssdwlf]

This also brings up some interesting questions:

1. How and why do the shuttlecraft leave an antimatter trail ("Metamorphosis")?
2. Does the Enterprise leave an antimatter trail on Impulse or even Warp?
3. In "Menagerie", the shuttlecraft is identified with "Ion Engine Power". Does that mean the impulse engines and ion engines in TOS are one and the same?

I also just noticed in "That Which Survives", the same episode mentions both "matter-antimatter engines" and "matter-antimatter reactor". That helps with the argument of multiple matter-antimatter reactors as engines and a single reactor supporting them as one big system.

 

[TIN_MAN]

...3. In "Menagerie", the shuttlecraft is identified with "Ion Engine Power". Does that mean the impulse engines and ion engines in TOS are one and the same?

If the ions in question are antimatter ions then sure, why not?

Here’s another thought, what if Treks “impulse” tech is all based on antimatter? Even the “fusion” power could be fusing raw anti-hydrogen into anti-deuterium, thus energy would be derived twice, once during the fusion process then again when the deuterium is used in the antimatter reactor(s)?

 

[Mytran]

1. How and why do the shuttlecraft leave an antimatter trail ("Metamorphosis")?
2. Does the Enterprise leave an antimatter trail on Impulse or even Warp?

Well there is mention in an episode of VOY of "exhaust" from the Warp Engines, not to mention the visual cues in Nemesis and NuTrek.

Back in the (real) 23rd century though, I wonder if "antimatter residue" could simply be the disturbance in subspace resulting from a M/AM reaction? That might be something the Enterprise sensors could detect.

I also just noticed in "That Which Survives", the same episode mentions both "matter-antimatter engines" and "matter-antimatter reactor". That helps with the argument of multiple matter-antimatter reactors as engines and a single reactor supporting them as one big system.

Nice find! Again!

Actually, I wonder if the differentiation in dialogue isn't significant here? After all "reactor" is fairly specific (and in Scotty's statement refers to one that mixes matter and antimatter) whereas "engine" can refer more generally to any moving parts machine; a nacelle converting the output of a (central) M/AM reactor into space-bending propulsion would definitely qualify, IMO!

...3. In "Menagerie", the shuttlecraft is identified with "Ion Engine Power". Does that mean the impulse engines and ion engines in TOS are one and the same?

If the ions in question are antimatter ions then sure, why not?

The whole statement is troublesome, especially considering the awe that Scotty expressed in seeing the ship in Spock's Brain which has "ion propulsion". Is that different from "ion engine power" somehow?

Perhaps antimatter ions are simply a more compact way to store the volatile stuff? Space is certainly at a premium on those old Class F shuttles!

 

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran - not necessarily troubling. In "Spock's Brain" they call the alien ion propulsion, "unique" and "advanced". "Ion propulsion" was also considered an "interstellar" propulsion. It was also compared to nuclear power and interestingly described as significantly more powerful.

So, what if Impulse and Ion propulsion are one in the same with different levels of sophistication? The Romulans, Federation use "simple" Impulse and never developed it beyond a certain point after Warp propulsion was invented. This also puts Ion/Impulse technology much higher and more capable than nuclear which corresponds to "Elaan of Troyius". The Sigma Draconis Seven civilization developed an advanced Ion drive that's as good as fast Warp.

SPOCK: Configuration unidentified. Ion propulsion, high velocity, though of a unique technology.
...
SCOTT: It beats me, but isn't she a beauty?
KIRK: Interesting design.
SCOTT: I've never seen anything like her. And ion propulsion at that. They could teach us a thing or two.
...
Captain's log, stardate 5431.4. for fifteen hours and twenty minutes [at Warp 6] we have been following the ion trail of the spaceship that has Spock's brain. Time left to us, eight hours and forty minutes.
...
SULU: But that ship, Captain, either it was many years ahead of us or the most incredible design fluke in history.
...
KIRK: Not one of which is capable of launching an interstellar flight,
...
KIRK: But advanced ion propulsion is beyond even our capabilities. It'd be a miracle if they had developed it.
...
SCOTT: Captain, that power we picked up above, we're getting closer.
KIRK: A lot of it?
SCOTT: Enough to push this planet out of orbit.
KIRK: What source?
SCOTT: Either a nuclear pile a hundred miles across or
KIRK: Or what?
SCOTT: Ion power.​

 

[Mytran]

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge about Ion Propulsion, it's basically a rocket engine - a long way from an interstellar drive. So, whatever SD7 developed is so incredibly far beyond this that calling it "ion power" would be true only in the broadest sense of the term.

What about the shuttle though; did it really pursue the Enterprise using nothing more than fancy thrusters? Here what Wikipedia says about this drive:

An ion thruster is a form of electric propulsion used for spacecraft propulsion that creates thrust by accelerating ions. The term is strictly used to refer to gridded electrostatic ion thrusters, but may often more loosely be applied to all electric propulsion systems that accelerate plasma, since plasma consists of ions.

If we concede that shuttles use a M/AM reaction to power their FTL systems, perhaps their ion engine is used to transfer warp plasma from the central reactor out to the nacelles?

 

[RAMA]

Watching "Peak Performance" reminded me of something:

First of all the idea of Wesley beaming this volatile little ball of anti-matter into the Hathaway's engineering to just roll around is pretty ridiculous, but besides that my main concern is this:

Can you just beam anti-matter through the transporter? Would it be converted into, say, some kind of anti-energy (if there is such a thing)?

It was only a minute amount, and yes it can be easily transported as long as it's contained in a magnetic "bottle".

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that their concept of "ion propulsion" wouldn't match up with what we know of it today as. Perhaps the writers also blurred the idea of positively and negatively charged atom/molecule as positive matter and negative antimatter?

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge about Ion Propulsion, it's basically a rocket engine - a long way from an interstellar drive. So, whatever SD7 developed is so incredibly far beyond this that calling it "ion power" would be true only in the broadest sense of the term.

What about the shuttle though; did it really pursue the Enterprise using nothing more than fancy thrusters? Here what Wikipedia says about this drive:

An ion thruster is a form of electric propulsion used for spacecraft propulsion that creates thrust by accelerating ions. The term is strictly used to refer to gridded electrostatic ion thrusters, but may often more loosely be applied to all electric propulsion systems that accelerate plasma, since plasma consists of ions.

If we concede that shuttles use a M/AM reaction to power their FTL systems, perhaps their ion engine is used to transfer warp plasma from the central reactor out to the nacelles?

 

[Go-Captain]

SCOTT: Captain, that power we picked up above, we're getting closer.
KIRK: A lot of it?
SCOTT: Enough to push this planet out of orbit.
KIRK: What source?
SCOTT: Either a nuclear pile a hundred miles across or
KIRK: Or what?
SCOTT: Ion power.​

That means it cannot be a simple xenon style ion drive, since they consume power and reaction mass, they don't produce it. When they say ion they mean some sort of space magic outside real life science

 

[TIN_MAN]

Yeah, it seems the writer was just using "Ion power" as a placeholder for some super technology beyond federation science.

I would suggest abrupt ion motion in a glow plasma to tap the zero point energy directly, or something like that?

 

[Mytran]

Ah ZPE, I like that! Something far fetched and magical but with a smidgen of real science behind it, perfect for an episode like Spock's Brain!

I am curious though; what exactly is the power output of a nuclear pile a hundred miles wide?

 

[blssdwlf]

I am curious though; what exactly is the power output of a nuclear pile a hundred miles wide?

"Enough to push this planet out of orbit."

@TIN_MAN -ha!
@Go-Captain -exactly.

 

[Lord Manitou]

In Star Trek Voyager with the ep. 'Deadlock' the ship is split into two equal identities. In both cases the anti-matter wouldn't evolve with what the ship was doing and was dissipating. It would be safe to assume anti-matter plays weird with the space-time continuum like nothing else. It's rather famous that the transporter will transport just about anything electro-magnetic, plasma, highly irradiated matter, ordinary things temporal(mind), and ordinary fermionic matter, but not without making mistakes. Anti-matter is just another high-tech reality that is highly classified, complicated and difficult to handle and starship captains who are wise will steer away from transporting it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

In Star Trek Voyager with the ep. 'Deadlock' the ship is split into two equal identities. In both cases the anti-matter wouldn't evolve with what the ship was doing and was dissipating. It would be safe to assume anti-matter plays weird with the space-time continuum like nothing else.

I don't see why. It's just normal matter with an opposite electrical charge. The explanation in "Deadlock" is just a quasi-scientific asspull; they might as well have claimed that splitting the ship was turning all the water on the ship into alcohol (e.g. "The Naked Time" and "The Naked Now").

Anti-matter is just another high-tech reality that is highly classified, complicated and difficult to handle

Well no... again, antimatter is just matter with its electrical charge reversed. It's only difficult to handle because it doesn't react well with normal matter... but then, a particle will only react with its corresponding antiparticle, so strictly speaking matter and antimatter should react in a way more similar to, say, subcritical plutonium and tungsten carbide, which is to say, probably like a small firecracker that produces enough gamma radiation to flash-fry an elephant.

starship captains who are wise will steer away from transporting it.

Except for the dozens of times they've actually DONE it, yes.

 

[Go-Captain]

I am curious though; what exactly is the power output of a nuclear pile a hundred miles wide?

The best I could find was an energy density for a plutonium fast reactor of 12,500,000,000 kWh/m^3. There might have been a better stats on the page but I'll go with it. 100 by 100 miles in 10,000 miles^2, and that's 16,093,440 meters^2. Times 1 meter is 16,093,440 m^3. Times 12,500,000,000 kWh/m^3 is 7.242048 × 1023 joules. That's over 120,000 gigatons of energy, more than the energy in 2 metric tons of matter-antimatter annihilating, and more than the Chicxulub Crater impact.

However, this tells us nothing about power output, only maximum energy. For all we know the power output was trickling at watts, or pouring out at terrawatts.
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