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Can you cast guest actors for 1970's ST phase 2?

As for casting in Phase II, if the show was on NBC, then you'd almost certainly see a lot of actors who appeared on that network's shows at the time. NBC was notorious for cross-pollination of their shows.

Almost certainly at some point Lance Kerwin would show up, probably in a Wesley Crusher like character since he was the primary young actor who seemed to be on every TV show at the time. We'd also probably see Dick Van Patten, John Ritter, Jeffrey Tambor, and Hamilton Camp. Considering Rock Hudson was in MacMillan and Wife, it would have been interesting if he had appeared on this show as well.
 
So, going back to the scripts that were actually written or being written for Phase II, who would you see playing what parts? Kitumba is full of Klingon characters, like the young Kitumba himself, Ksia the warrior, and the older warlord Malkthon, Baru Taru the deputy warlord ("despite her warlike appearance, is very lovely"), and Admiral Li Po Yu ("In her forties, strikingly attractive without being pretty").

All i saw about this story was a short synopsis, so I'd need to find out more about the Klingons before attempting to cast for them (are they more devious like Koloth, or more psychotic like Kurge, or intense like Kor?).

But I got to thinking about the female Starfleet admiral: this would have been quite difficult to cast back in the late 70's, finding an asian actress (ideally of chinese descent) that would be 40 years old or slightly over. Either it would have had to be a complete unknown, or perhaps these two candidates:

France Nuyen, who already appeared as Elaan of Troyus. Of vietnamese descent, however, and she projects a more volatile image.

Nancy Kwan, with a more wholesome image, from The WORLD OF SUSIE WONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUY9SVERzA
She was 39 in 1978, and had done some Hawaii 5-0...
 
If you want to find Asian actors/actresses from the '70s, just go through the cast list for M*A*S*H and I'm sure you'll find options.
 
Okay, so we agree it sucked I just think it sucked harder than you do.

No, we don't agree on anything of the kind. I'm not talking about my personal opinion, I'm talking about its level of success with the network executives that it was shown to. The purpose of a pilot is to sell a series to a network, syndicator, or whoever would provide the funding for it. Therefore, a successful pilot would be defined as one that convinces the network (or whoever) to pay for the show, and a failed pilot would be one that does not convince them to do so. Since "The Cage" failed to sell the show in and of itself but did convince the network to pay for a second, more representative pilot, I would call that a partial success.

As for my personal opinion about the episode, I think it works very well as a science fiction story and achieves almost feature-level production values for its day. I agree with the network that it could've been better with a more diverse and interesting set of characters and performers, but it's an excellent story that's excellently made.

The story was a good one, I grant you that. But I do not agree that it was well-executed. You are probably better read than I on Trek history so correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't it incredibly unusual for a pilot to get a second chance? Doesn't everyone always talk about how incredibly lucky GR was that they asked for a second pilot (and wasn't that the doing of a minority of execs--1 or 2-- who argued to give GR that second chance) and that the trade off for GR was that his budget would get cut down incredibly? Also, Hunter's performance always struck me as a little weak--almost like he called it in--and isn't that the result of the fact that he didn't really want to do the show and in fact refused to join the cast for the second pilot because he wanted a movie deal and the production company and/or studios couldn't give him that? The result being that he turned his back on Trek?

I have watched The Cage several times in an attempt to really "get into it," and each time I doze off. I think the reason why is because it is a good story (hence my repeated attempts to get into it) but very poorly executed (hence my snoozing).

An incomplete success is just a PC way of saying that it was a failure IMHO. The only value I see in The Cage is that thankfully someone saw some potential in it and was willing to give GR a second chance and so we have TOS (you are quite right to point that out) and it also made for a great backstory for the Menagerie (which is not one of my favorite episodes, but it's better than Catspaw).

Nevertheless, the fact remains that GR got lucky and that The Cage almost killed TOS. I remember seeing an interview where GR actually admitted that the money he was given to make The Cage got to his head and he admitted that the pilot was not at all what he had promised the studios.
 
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As for casting for Phase II, try this on for size. The other night, my wife and I were watching an old James Coburn flick (Leone's "Duck, You Sucker" aka "A Fistful of Dynamite," aka "Once Upon a Time The Revolution." My wife pointed out how much Coburn seemed to resemble Nimoy. I had often noticed this myself whenever I would see Coburn's great hits (The Magnificent Seven, The Great Escape, etc...).

What if he could have appeared as a guest star playing some relative of Spock's (instead of Luckinbill who was terrible in TUC). Or, maybe Coburn could have reprised Stonn's role or have been a kick-ass Rommie!

What do you think?
 
So, going back to the scripts that were actually written or being written for Phase II, who would you see playing what parts? Kitumba is full of Klingon characters, like the young Kitumba himself, Ksia the warrior, and the older warlord Malkthon, Baru Taru the deputy warlord ("despite her warlike appearance, is very lovely"), and Admiral Li Po Yu ("In her forties, strikingly attractive without being pretty").

All i saw about this story was a short synopsis, so I'd need to find out more about the Klingons before attempting to cast for them (are they more devious like Koloth, or more psychotic like Kurge, or intense like Kor?).

The Klingon Empire to have been portrayed in Kitumba was more based on feudal Japan than space Vikings. The Society was caste based, wherein Klingons were the warrior caste and there was a Subject Class and a Techos Class. The Klingon caste was in many was barbarous to Federation eyes.

Ksia is a Klingon warrior who "defects" to the Federation not because he believes the feds are right, but that the Klingon empire isn't ready for at that moment for the war Malkthon is planning. Think the noble samurai.

The Kitumba is the young ceremonial leader of the Klingons who lives on the Sacred Planet where no weapons are allowed. He's proud, rather naive, and doesn't understand the human's revulsion to ritual suicide to regain honor and other realities of life in the Klingon empire.

Malkthron is an ambitious warrior and political leader who plots against the Kitumba and plans to replace him with his even younger brother who can be easily controlled.

Baru Taru is Malkthon's deputy whom (as I recall) isn't as quick to reject tradition for political expediency.
 
The story was a good one, I grant you that. But I do not agree that it was well-executed.

For what it was -- a modestly budgeted 1964 television production by a studio with absolutely no prior experience making science fiction -- it was astonishingly well-executed. It came close to the look of some feature films of the period.

And again, if we define "success" and "failure" in terms of whether it achieved what it set out to do, then it was very much a success where its execution was concerned, because it convinced NBC that Desilu was capable of producing a science fiction TV series on a weekly basis.


You are probably better read than I on Trek history so correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't it incredibly unusual for a pilot to get a second chance? Doesn't everyone always talk about how incredibly lucky GR was that they asked for a second pilot (and wasn't that the doing of a minority of execs--1 or 2-- who argued to give GR that second chance) and that the trade off for GR was that his budget would get cut down incredibly?

No, I've already explained this. Yes, second pilots were almost (or completely?) unprecedented, but the reason for it in this case is that "The Cage" didn't fulfill the purpose of a pilot, which was to represent what the budget and logistics of a typical episode would be. It was a pull-out-all-the-stops production to show what the studio was capable of achieving, and thus it didn't give the network a good sense of how much a routine episode of the series would cost them -- information they'd need to have in order to decide whether they could afford to buy the show. So they needed to ask for another pilot that would represent a more typical production. In a sense, "The Cage" was made to sell Desilu itself, and "Where No Man..." was made to sell Star Trek.

So it wasn't "luck" that GR got a second pilot. There was a clear and practical reason for it. And the budget wasn't "cut down incredibly," it was just set to represent a typical episode rather than the lavish, all-out production that "The Cage" was.

Also, Hunter's performance always struck me as a little weak--almost like he called it in--and isn't that the result of the fact that he didn't really want to do the show and in fact refused to join the cast for the second pilot because he wanted a movie deal and the production company and/or studios couldn't give him that? The result being that he turned his back on Trek?

We don't know the details, but that seems to be close to the truth; he declined to attend a screening of the pilot, instead sending his wife, who told the producers that he was "a movie star" and wasn't interested in television. (It's not like he was asking Desilu or the Norway Corporation for a movie deal -- how could they possibly get him that, and for what?)

As for his performance, he wasn't as engaging a lead as Shatner turned out to be, but I'm not familiar enough with his larger body of work to know whether his performance style in "The Cage" was typical or unusual. And it would be presumptuous to make guesses about what motivated him in his performance choices. I don't recall any accounts claiming that Hunter was in any way unprofessional in his work on "The Cage."


An incomplete success is just a PC way of saying that it was a failure IMHO.

It has nothing to do with "PC" -- a label that should never be used because it's just a lazy way to attack and dismiss an opposing point of view rather than engaging with it fairly. I've explained what I meant by the phrase. "The Cage" did succeed in convincing NBC that Desilu was capable of producing Star Trek, and that it was worth NBC's while to pay for a second pilot. But it wasn't enough in itself to sell the show; it was the one-two punch of both pilots combined that closed the deal, the first to sell the studio, the second to sell the series. Hence a partial success. Consider it the first round of an ultimately successful negotiation.


Nevertheless, the fact remains that GR got lucky and that The Cage almost killed TOS.

No, that's the opposite of a fact. "The Cage" almost sold TOS, but wasn't enough to do so on its own, because it didn't represent a typical episode -- and, yes, because it needed a stronger cast. It makes no sense to say it "almost killed" something that wasn't even "alive" yet. That's getting it backward. You're talking as though it was entitled to exist and "The Cage" almost prevented that from happening. And that's just nonsense. There was no entitlement. Roddenberry had to prove that his show had a right to exist. And "The Cage" proved to NBC that Star Trek was worth pursuing if some adjustments were made. It convinced them to pay for a second pilot, something that had almost never been done before. How can that not be considered a remarkable accomplishment? If it's a failed pilot, it's surely the most successful failed pilot in the history of television.


I remember seeing an interview where GR actually admitted that the money he was given to make The Cage got to his head and he admitted that the pilot was not at all what he had promised the studios.

I don't remember that, but many of Roddenberry's accounts of the past were notoriously unreliable. Even if it does represent a facet of the truth, though, it certainly doesn't prove that the pilot was a complete failure. It merely affirms what I've already acknowledged, that the network felt the pilot needed work. But they were still sufficiently convinced to take a second chance, so it succeeded to that extent.


What if he could have appeared as a guest star playing some relative of Spock's (instead of Luckinbill who was terrible in TUC).

Maybe that's because he wasn't in TUC. ;) And I thought he was one of the few good things about the movie he actually was in, The Final Frontier.
 
Had THE CAGE been accepted with no reqest for a second pilot, how would it have been aired? At 64 minutes, it was substantially longer than the 51 minutes of the regular hour episodes but not enough for a two part show.
 
Let's also remember that members of the Star Trek staff have also conceded that part of the reason the got a 2nd pilot was that NBC realized they had picked the wrong script and realized they were partially at fault for the pilot being, as D.C. Fontana said, "Too much in the mind."
 
Charo, Paul Lynde, Nipsey Russell, Judy Landers, Bea Arthur, Phyllis Diller, Loni Anderson, Linda Blair, Dr. Joyce Brothers, Gabe Kaplan, Ted Knight, Lee Majors...
 
The story was a good one, I grant you that. But I do not agree that it was well-executed.

For what it was -- a modestly budgeted 1964 television production by a studio with absolutely no prior experience making science fiction -- it was astonishingly well-executed. It came close to the look of some feature films of the period.

And again, if we define "success" and "failure" in terms of whether it achieved what it set out to do, then it was very much a success where its execution was concerned, because it convinced NBC that Desilu was capable of producing a science fiction TV series on a weekly basis.


You are probably better read than I on Trek history so correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't it incredibly unusual for a pilot to get a second chance? Doesn't everyone always talk about how incredibly lucky GR was that they asked for a second pilot (and wasn't that the doing of a minority of execs--1 or 2-- who argued to give GR that second chance) and that the trade off for GR was that his budget would get cut down incredibly?
No, I've already explained this. Yes, second pilots were almost (or completely?) unprecedented, but the reason for it in this case is that "The Cage" didn't fulfill the purpose of a pilot, which was to represent what the budget and logistics of a typical episode would be. It was a pull-out-all-the-stops production to show what the studio was capable of achieving, and thus it didn't give the network a good sense of how much a routine episode of the series would cost them -- information they'd need to have in order to decide whether they could afford to buy the show. So they needed to ask for another pilot that would represent a more typical production. In a sense, "The Cage" was made to sell Desilu itself, and "Where No Man..." was made to sell Star Trek.

So it wasn't "luck" that GR got a second pilot. There was a clear and practical reason for it. And the budget wasn't "cut down incredibly," it was just set to represent a typical episode rather than the lavish, all-out production that "The Cage" was.



We don't know the details, but that seems to be close to the truth; he declined to attend a screening of the pilot, instead sending his wife, who told the producers that he was "a movie star" and wasn't interested in television. (It's not like he was asking Desilu or the Norway Corporation for a movie deal -- how could they possibly get him that, and for what?)

As for his performance, he wasn't as engaging a lead as Shatner turned out to be, but I'm not familiar enough with his larger body of work to know whether his performance style in "The Cage" was typical or unusual. And it would be presumptuous to make guesses about what motivated him in his performance choices. I don't recall any accounts claiming that Hunter was in any way unprofessional in his work on "The Cage."




It has nothing to do with "PC" -- a label that should never be used because it's just a lazy way to attack and dismiss an opposing point of view rather than engaging with it fairly. I've explained what I meant by the phrase. "The Cage" did succeed in convincing NBC that Desilu was capable of producing Star Trek, and that it was worth NBC's while to pay for a second pilot. But it wasn't enough in itself to sell the show; it was the one-two punch of both pilots combined that closed the deal, the first to sell the studio, the second to sell the series. Hence a partial success. Consider it the first round of an ultimately successful negotiation.




No, that's the opposite of a fact. "The Cage" almost sold TOS, but wasn't enough to do so on its own, because it didn't represent a typical episode -- and, yes, because it needed a stronger cast. It makes no sense to say it "almost killed" something that wasn't even "alive" yet. That's getting it backward. You're talking as though it was entitled to exist and "The Cage" almost prevented that from happening. And that's just nonsense. There was no entitlement. Roddenberry had to prove that his show had a right to exist. And "The Cage" proved to NBC that Star Trek was worth pursuing if some adjustments were made. It convinced them to pay for a second pilot, something that had almost never been done before. How can that not be considered a remarkable accomplishment? If it's a failed pilot, it's surely the most successful failed pilot in the history of television.


I remember seeing an interview where GR actually admitted that the money he was given to make The Cage got to his head and he admitted that the pilot was not at all what he had promised the studios.
I don't remember that, but many of Roddenberry's accounts of the past were notoriously unreliable. Even if it does represent a facet of the truth, though, it certainly doesn't prove that the pilot was a complete failure. It merely affirms what I've already acknowledged, that the network felt the pilot needed work. But they were still sufficiently convinced to take a second chance, so it succeeded to that extent.


What if he could have appeared as a guest star playing some relative of Spock's (instead of Luckinbill who was terrible in TUC).

Maybe that's because he wasn't in TUC. ;) And I thought he was one of the few good things about the movie he actually was in, The Final Frontier.


I wasn't aware that The Cage was meant to showcase what Desilu could do. In that sense, then it would definitely be a success. I maintain that within the context of comparing it to other TOS episodes (which I think you might say is unfair, but we are going to do it anyway as we tend to see The Cage not as a self-contained entity but as part of a larger body of work), it is quite weak.

The interview I am referring to appears on the DVD box set that came out either in 2003 or 2005 (I am not sure which and I am too lazy to walk to the other end of the room, but I think you know the ones I mean) as a special feature. The interview with GR dates back to the late 70s early 80s I think and he talks about he had promised the studio with an outer space western "zap guns instead of six-shooters" and so on. But that we he saw the money they gave him to make the pilot "he went ape" as he says and ended up creating something that was NOT what they wanted. I have difficulty resolving that with your argument that The Cage's style and content was intentional to show what the studio could do. How could they be happy about something that they did not want in the first place? Also, there are countless accounts by crew, cast, and writers of how close TOS came to never being made (my choice of words "kill" is quite rightly inappropriate as we are talking about something that didn't exist yet, but that is just a question of semantics...let's just say TOS was almost prevented).

Re: Luckinbill being in TFF and not TUC, I knew that. I just wanted to see if you did too. ;) (actually I always get those two mixed up along with the other horrid ones. As far as I am concerned TWOK, TSFS, and TVH were the only really good ones, but that is something for another post).

You never replied to my message, any chance of more stories about Mestiko in the works? Reply privately if you prefer.
 
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Charo, Paul Lynde, Nipsey Russell, Judy Landers, Bea Arthur, Phyllis Diller, Loni Anderson, Linda Blair, Dr. Joyce Brothers, Gabe Kaplan, Ted Knight, Lee Majors...

It would have been . . . glorious.


So Hollywood Squares meets Phase II. Hmmm, :guffaw:

LONI ANDERSON in a Col. Deering/1999- style jumpsuit! Woulda out-Jeri'd Jeri 25 years ahead of time. Charo as some alien monkey woman! Goochi goochi! Ted Knight as a jerky commodore? Dr. Joyce Brothers as a commissioner with an illness in a shuttle blown off-course. Oh wait. Lee Majors woulda been cool in a CROSSOVER ep. Steve Austin was put into suspended animation somehow. WITH SASQUATCH!!
 
I maintain that within the context of comparing it to other TOS episodes (which I think you might say is unfair, but we are going to do it anyway as we tend to see The Cage not as a self-contained entity but as part of a larger body of work), it is quite weak.

Well, when you called it a "failure," I didn't take it to mean simply an evaluation of its quality. "Failure" means not doing what you tried to do, and what a pilot tries to do is not merely to entertain an audience, but to sell a series to a network. So I was evaluating its success or failure in those terms, not just whether I like it.

I will grant that "The Cage" has some weaknesses relative to the rest of TOS, notably in the cast and characters, which of course was the main area where NBC asked for -- and got -- improvements. But it's still an impressive work of 1960s mass-media science fiction. There are some things about it that I wish had been kept, like the bridge design with the rear-projected wall displays. It did a very good job of conveying a feel of a broader universe, giving a sense that the world and characters had a reality beyond the episode -- the characters were recovering from a previous mission, we got a good amount of worldbuilding through the various illusion sequences including a look at Earth, we hear about an expedition from 18 years in the past, etc. We were given a clear, multilayered picture of Captain Pike's character, his values, his doubts and regrets, his background and interests, his fantasies. That's a lot of information to cram into 60-some minutes. I daresay it did a better job fleshing out its universe and lead character than the second pilot did (although it gave most of the other characters short shrift).


The interview with GR dates back to the late 70s early 80s I think and he talks about he had promised the studio with an outer space western "zap guns instead of six-shooters" and so on. But that we he saw the money they gave him to make the pilot "he went ape" as he says and ended up creating something that was NOT what they wanted.

As I said, Roddenberry spun a lot of tall tales about the network and its attitudes. He liked painting them as Philistines and obstructionists. Other sources, notably Herb Solow and Bob Justman in their book Inside Star Trek, have offered a different view, and provided documentation to back a lot of it up. They're my source for what I'm relating here.

I have difficulty resolving that with your argument that The Cage's style and content was intentional to show what the studio could do. How could they be happy about something that they did not want in the first place?

Because they weren't considering just one factor in making their decision, but many. Judging from "The Cage," was Star Trek intelligent? Yes. Was it fresh and imaginative? Yes. Did it offer interesting ideas? Yes. Was it visually striking? Hell, yes. Did it have strong characters and actors? Not so much. Did it have enough action? Not quite. Was it comfortably chaste? No, it was too sexy. Did it have enough ethnic diversity to satisfy the network and the sponsors? No, even though Roddenberry promised it would. Was it typical enough in scope to give the bean-counters a sense of what the show's budget would have to be? No. So they were happy about some things, but in other respects it didn't suit their needs.

These are complex decisions. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten rejection letters from editors saying "There's a lot I like about your story, but it doesn't quite work for me." Keep in mind that just kinda liking something isn't enough, because the decisions that magazine editors or network executives make are not just about personal taste, but about whether they will spend money on a work of fiction. And perhaps more importantly, that work of fiction is competing with a lot of other works of fiction for the same finite amount of money. That means it's not enough for them to like the story, they have to like it better than all the other stories it's competing with. Or it has to suit their needs better than some other story that they like just as much.


You never replied to my message, any chance of more stories about Mestiko in the works? Reply privately if you prefer.

I have no way of knowing. It's always possible that someone might decide to follow up on them in some form. But I think Mere Anarchy told their story pretty completely.
 
It would have been . . . glorious.


So Hollywood Squares meets Phase II. Hmmm, :guffaw:

LONI ANDERSON in a Col. Deering/1999- style jumpsuit! Woulda out-Jeri'd Jeri 25 years ahead of time. Charo as some alien monkey woman! Goochi goochi! Ted Knight as a jerky commodore? Dr. Joyce Brothers as a commissioner with an illness in a shuttle blown off-course. Oh wait. Lee Majors woulda been cool in a CROSSOVER ep. Steve Austin was put into suspended animation somehow. WITH SASQUATCH!!

Ok, now I'm sold! :techman:
 
I think we would have seen Ricardo Montalbán and the return of Khan Noonien Singh. Probably in far a less epic way.

You may be right about that.

I would have liked to have seen Gary Lockwood come back as Gary Mitchell in Phase II. He could also play his twin brother who is a Star Fleet Medical Doctor. The Enterprise could be taking Dr. Mitchell to Delta Vega to recover his brother's body for a burial on Earth. Although Dr. Mitchell revives his brother using nano technology (or something else, like Fabrini medicine possibly combined with transporter technology) in order to try to cure his brother of the God-like super power caused by the Galactic Barrier. Instead, Gary gives his twin brother those God-like powers and Kirk and his senior officers have to figure out a way to neutralize both of them.

It's just a thought, Gary Lockwood could have played a new guest starring character on Phase II instead Gary Mitchell.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

You just want to see Gary Lockwood play twins on Phase II because he did such a good job playing twins on The Six Million Dollar Man.

Actually, I never knew that Gary Lockwood played twins until I read your post.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\
 
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wilmadeering.jpg
 
The interview I am referring to appears on the DVD box set...[t]he interview with GR dates back to the late 70s early 80s I think and he talks about he had promised the studio with an outer space western "zap guns instead of six-shooters" and so on. But that we he saw the money they gave him to make the pilot "he went ape" as he says and ended up creating something that was NOT what they wanted.
Pardon my being a stickler, but you shouldn't put quotation marks around paraphrases without calling them out as such. Roddenberry surely never said "he went ape", but maybe something like "I went ape". I'd like to hear what he actually said. Got a specific source you are referring to?
 
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