Can we just pretend that Voyager never happened?

[Kobayshi Maru]

Maybe you changed then, because I see Worf as being basically the same in the two series.

I'm confused. First you said....

BTW, Worf seems to have made significant progress, but only if you include both series.

But now you're saying he's the same and hasn't made significant progress ?

Anyway, in TNG he always seemed to me to be quite petty and severe not to mention extremely dumb. He lacks humour and experience and makes assumptions. In DS9, he just seems to have developed a lot more. He's smarter, experienced, more open minded and more capable of seeing the bigger picture

OH come on! Worf's idea of a joke (in the season finale, no less!) is to say "I am going to kill him" to Ezri, about Bashir. You call that a sense of humor?


You know it's like what Quark says in the end of the finale, "The more things change, the more they stay the same. "


I believe that applies to worf, to a T.

He's changed in the way that his manners have mellowed, he's less aggressive ect...

But when it comes to the basics he's exactly how he always was.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

Voyager is apart of trek and so is enterprise, ok as fan we didn't like these 2 series as much but it like star wars epsiodes 1,2,3,everyone hated those movies but they are apart of the franchise so pretending that voyager didn't happen is wrong,just like TNG and DS9 ana the original series they all got faults but how many people are complaining about them.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I like to think the basic events of the Star Wars prequels happened but in a more interesting way.

Like, the prequels are actually a reenactment of history meant for an elementary school audience.

 

[Guy Gardener]

For the real world, for Imperial citizens, or for New Republicans?

 

[JeffinOakland]

Voyager is apart of trek and so is enterprise, ok as fan we didn't like these 2 series as much but it like star wars epsiodes 1,2,3,everyone hated those movies but they are apart of the franchise so pretending that voyager didn't happen is wrong,just like TNG and DS9 ana the original series they all got faults but how many people are complaining about them.

The prequels are not Star Wars. They were never made. They do not exist. That is all.

 

[Lance]

There's a part of me that is hardline enough to say only 'Star Wars' (the original 1977 theatrical cut) exists, and that there are no sequels or prequels. In some ways, Star Wars was perfectly self-contained piece, and one that (with hindsight) only got diluted with the addition of every new piece of mythology tacked on thereafter...

... but then, I guess I could say that about a *lot* of movie franchises. Follow-up movies rarely end well.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

There are tough decisions to be made here: Should we or shouldn't we... erase Voyager from reality?


Second: Who's gonna do the erasing?


Third: Who's gonna build the time machine?

 

[Lance]

If I've got a time machine, I'm erasing The Motion Picture from reality.

Really just want to see what Phase II would've turned out like.

I promise I'll go back and fix the timeline again afterwards, honest.

(Oops... I think I may have just stepped on a butterfly...)

 

[bbjeg]

Changing Star Trek would be the least of my concerns if I had a time machine.

 

[STEPhon IT]

This show was such a trainwreck. Poor acting, poor writing, poor directing. This is the show that began the slow decline of Trek.

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

This show was such a trainwreck. Poor acting, poor writing, poor directing. This is the show that began the slow decline of Trek.

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

I still hate the monkey that at the writer's office kept pushing that reset button like crazy.

 

[fireproof78]

This show was such a trainwreck. Poor acting, poor writing, poor directing. This is the show that began the slow decline of Trek.

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

I still hate the monkey that at the writer's office kept pushing that reset button like crazy.

Yep


Also, that was not the premise-it was to get home. If they want to explore, fine, but that should not be the goal every episode when the stated purpose was different, and there was an entire portion of the crew that had not signed up to do all that exploring.

If that was the intended purpose, then say so. But. for me, VOY will always be disappointing because of the reset button, the lack of premise fulfillment (discussed to death, I know. Sorry) and characters who didn't feel like characters, to me.

YMMV

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

I still hate the monkey that at the writer's office kept pushing that reset button like crazy.

Yep


Also, that was not the premise-it was to get home. If they want to explore, fine, but that should not be the goal every episode when the stated purpose was different, and there was an entire portion of the crew that had not signed up to do all that exploring.

If that was the intended purpose, then say so. But. for me, VOY will always be disappointing because of the reset button, the lack of premise fulfillment (discussed to death, I know. Sorry) and characters who didn't feel like characters, to me.

YMMV

You hit the nail right on its head.

 

[MacLeod]

This show was such a trainwreck. Poor acting, poor writing, poor directing. This is the show that began the slow decline of Trek.

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

Yet didn't they want to boldly go back to Earth?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

This show was such a trainwreck. Poor acting, poor writing, poor directing. This is the show that began the slow decline of Trek.

I didn't like the series as much as the classic series, TNG, and DS9 FIRST 3 SEASONS, but one thing which has never escaped me was Star Trek: Voyager was the only series who represented Star Trek's slogan. TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATIONS, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE.

That was Star Trek: Voyager.

Yet didn't they want to boldly go back to Earth?

Yeah, destroying Arturis' entire people in the process, but who cares? What's the fate of an entire species compared to getting home?

 

[Lt. Marseille]

Yeah, destroying Arturis' entire people in the process, but who cares? What's the fate of an entire species compared to getting home?

By that reckoning:

Picard really should be held responsible for every life lost at Wolf 359.

By discovering the wormhole Sisko is personally responsible for everyone that the Dominion killed.

Anyone who ever met Hitler following his rise to power and failed to just kill him on the spot is personally responsible for all the lives subsequently lost.

Seriously?

As I recall Species 8472, who were even more powerful than the Borg, intended to 'purge our galaxy' of all lifeforms that weren't them.

 

[hux]

By that reckoning:

Picard really should be held responsible for every life lost at Wolf 359.

By discovering the wormhole Sisko is personally responsible for everyone that the Dominion killed.

Anyone who ever met Hitler following his rise to power and failed to just kill him on the spot is personally responsible for all the lives subsequently lost.

Seriously?

Picard was a Borg who had no option

The wormhole was there whether Sisko opened it or not

Whereas Janeway knowingly and deliberately (and against the objections of her first officer), happily offered to help the Borg to destroy a species (from existence) that was defeating them (after having been attacked initially by the Borg) rather than take the long route home.

Also.......never bring Hitler into a discussion (it makes you look silly)

As I recall Species 8472, who were even more powerful than the Borg, intended to 'purge our galaxy' of all lifeforms that weren't them.

They didn't intend to purge our galaxy. That was just a scared child's incorrect interpretation

For their true intent, see the adorable episode....."In the flesh"

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Yeah, destroying Arturis' entire people in the process, but who cares? What's the fate of an entire species compared to getting home?

By that reckoning:

Picard really should be held responsible for every life lost at Wolf 359.

Nope, that's very different, Picard wasn't in control of his mind nor his body at the time, unlike JANEWAY

By discovering the wormhole Sisko is personally responsible for everyone that the Dominion killed.

Still very different. Janeway was knowingly increasing the strength of the Borg ( who had assimilated hundreds of species and destroyed the lives of billions of individuals) simply to get closer to home, not even home mind you, just a little closer.

Well, I call that reprehensible.

That's way different from discovering a wormhole with no foreseeable consequences, unless you have godlike powers of divination....

Anyone who ever met Hitler following his rise to power and failed to just kill him on the spot is personally responsible for all the lives subsequently lost.

You're getting a little off track here aren't you? What's that got to do with the deal Janeway stroke with the devil (the borg)?

Seriously?

I'd like if you could stick to serious matters, very much.

As I recall Species 8472, who were even more powerful than the Borg, intended to 'purge our galaxy' of all lifeforms that weren't them.

But Janeway was informed that 8472 were mostly pissed that the Borg attacked them first, by Chakotay even. It didn't stop her from helping them further. She could no longer plead ignorance at this point. Arturis anger was perfectly legitimate. She gambled away his fate and that of many other species and for what? A shortcut to home? I call that criminal, of course no earth tribunal will ever judge her for that as future earth seems as corrupt as the present one. How else to explain why Janeway was promoted instead of being nuremberged for her war crimes?

 

[Lt. Marseille]

I agree that my other examples were a little disingenuous for effect; but they are actually still the same principle.

But Janeway was informed that 8472 were mostly pissed that the Borg attacked them first, by Chakotay even. It didn't stop her from helping them further. She could no longer plead ignorance at this point. Arturis anger was perfectly legitimate. She gambled away his fate and that of many other species and for what? A shortcut to home? I call that criminal, of course no earth tribunal will ever judge her for that as future earth seems as corrupt as the present one. How else to explain why Janeway was promoted instead of being nuremberged for her war crimes?

Kes made telepathic contact with Species 8472 and knows that they plan to purge all life from our galaxy which they view as 'unclean'. She tells the Voyager crew this. Who started the war is fairly insignificant compared to this. The fact remains that Species 8472 have no intention at stopping with just defeating the Borg.

Therefore, by your reckoning, if Janeway hadn't allied with the Borg then Voyager would potentially have been responsible for the end of all life in the galaxy.

As it stands, again by your reckoning, they are actually responsible for saving all life in the entire galaxy with the exception of anyone assimilated by the Borg.

 

[bbjeg]

^Good reasoning.

I'll say while we're at it, everything was Cochrane's fault for creating the warp engine.