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Can an expert explain Evolution to me?

Which is why I have this question. Like I said I understand that species change to develop new traits. What I don't buy into is that species X can evolve into a completely different species Y that has nothing in common with species Y. That is the argument that I see made a lot but not one that accept.
 
Which is why I have this question. Like I said I understand that species change to develop new traits. What I don't buy into is that species X can evolve into a completely different species Y that has nothing in common with species Y. That is the argument that I see made a lot but not one that accept.

A species doesn't evolve into species Y with nothing in common, it evolves into species Y that is really similar but with one or two tiny differences. Next time you're at the library, have a look at any of their field guides (to mollusks, birds, plants, etc.) You'll notice that there are many species that look really similar, and can in fact be very difficult to distinguish to the untrained eye.

For a fossil example, here are four species of a fossil brachiopod genus called Hustedia:

Hustedia.jpg


I don't see why it is so difficult to imagine one of those evolving into the other.

-MEC
 
It's quite easy: Species X is a worm, the worm grows legs, it is no longer a worm. This is better to grasp once you understand the features that actually set classes of species apart. Species X is a worm, the worm grows scaled skin, it is no longer a worm. Would the worm grow bones, tits and a brain, it would become a mamal.

I am absolutely no expert in this, maybe you should study biology or at least read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal
 
The problem with the phylogenic tree itself, or, any given version of it, is that
its conjectural. We know for a fact evolution happens. We don't know the exact paths it took, except for in a few cases.
Old phylogenetic trees, before the advent of molucular biology, were somwhat conjectural in that they were based on morphological differences only. In other words, "these two birds look alike, so they must be closely related." However, phylogenetic trees are now based upon genetic sequence similarities. By comparing the differences in the same gene between species, one can build a phylogenetic tree to explain the inheritance of specific sequences and even determine, in evolutoinary time, approximately when species split from each other.
 
I guess I need to see an example of a worm obtaining legs then I will be on the right path. I actually have been reading this subject for years and I just am not convinced, could be the way everything keeps getting redone for layman such as myself and too much Discovery Channel.
 
Evolution seems such an intuitive idea to me, but I see it as a simple generalization of natural selection, rather than a Darwinian theory of the origin of species. So I don't tend to visualise animals and people when I see the word evolution. Instead I visualise this maxim: "That which survives, is that which has the means and the will to survive."

(1) Understand the mathematics of the logistic equation, and how predator-prey systems interact, like the good old foxes and rabbits model.

(2) Look at my maths challenge from last month, where we learned how conflict or competition tends to have the effect of amplifying any advantage that one group or species has over another.

(3) Combining these thoughts, you can see quite clearly how in the combination of feeding and reproduction, the mathematics suggests that natural variations tend to become amplified over time if they provide any advantage at all to one group over another group. This is the theoretical basis for the cleavage of one species into variations.

(4) And whichever group has the greater means and will to survive, will tend to dominate its sibling groups, like red and gray squirrels are currently in competition in England, and gray squirrels are winning. Eventually, there will be no red squirrels.

(5) Simply by acknowledging that our DNA and personalities and cognitive abilities are not fixed for any species (humanity for example), we can see that there is an opportunity for natural variations to be carried forward into offspring.

For one example of evolution, measurements of human teeth in archaeology show that humanity is getting genetically prettier as the centuries pass by, with the teeth getting less and less like monkey teeth. But as I've said in another post, we're not really in evolution mode at the moment, because of our abundant provision of fuel and food and land has given us this unnatural easy phase to our existence.
 
I feel the need to bring up what I think is just about the best layman proof I can think off: the fossil record of horse evolution. We understand very well the path that took a small, fox sized creature with five toes to the modern horse with its single toe. Wikipedia has a pretty decent article on it.

Also, this worm growing legs notion: again, you're thinking of a process that's too quick. First off, early amphibian legs are merely derivatives of the fins of bony fish. And those fins were a gradual adaptation which would have allowed for greater maneuverability. Think of a lamprey versus a jawed fish such as a trout.
 
(4) And whichever group has the greater means and will to survive, will tend to dominate its sibling groups, like red and gray squirrels are currently in competition in England, and gray squirrels are winning. Eventually, there will be no red squirrels.

This is an outmoded concept that is not borne out with evidence -- at least none known to me in my readings, and I acknowledge I have only an amateur interest in palaeontology and evolutionary biology.

It is thought that competition between species in the same niche can result in the extinction of one of those species, but we have no evidence of this actually taking place. Nimravids (large feline relatives with sabre teeth) lived alongside lions and sabre cats in Africa for millions of years; the idea of competition driving Hoplophoneus to extinction whilst Panthera Leo is still around today beggars belief if they were able to somehow co-exist for millenia.

Your specific example of red and grey squirrels isn't down to competition, but disease transmission: the grey squirrels carry a pox to which they are resistant, but the red squirrels they're coming into contact with are not and it's killing them. It's possible that the reds could also adapt, or they could be wiped out, but the grey squirrels aren't eating all the red squirrels conkers or anything like that.
 
I think a major sticking point in the debate over the theory of evolution is the inability or unwillingness of some people to acknowledge there is a fine and very distinct line between Natural Selection (which is an observed and verified process - survival of the fittest) and Evolution which is still theory - one which still causes massive controversy, even among geneticists and other scientists.

There is no empirical or direct evidence (as yet) to support that it is happening, or even possible, and so it's wrong to keep claiming evolution is fact, or has been observed when this is clearly not the case. The theory suggests that creatures that lived underwater could evolve to now live exclusively on ground, or that a land-based animal could have gained the ability to fly - which has not been the case so far.

If, in the case of the red and grey squirrels, the reds develop an immunity (possibly via mutation), then they will survive and this will be passed to the offspring. It is unlikely, however, that they'll spontaneously evolve a defense for it, and with it the ability to start hunting down the greys.

Until we have a definitive answer one way or the other, I'm with Galactus, and won't be convinced until I see worms that sprouted legs, for example (something never observed in fossils), or ostriches that developed jet wings with rocket launching ability (I keep an open mind though, Universe is a big place, lots of weird stuff is happening all the time :)).
 
I think a major sticking point in the debate over the theory of evolution is the inability or unwillingness of some people to acknowledge there is a fine and very distinct line between Natural Selection (which is an observed and verified process - survival of the fittest) and Evolution which is still theory - one which still causes massive controversy, even among geneticists and other scientists.
No one is saying that natural selection and evolution are different things. In fact, anyone arguing for evolution has a very good understanding of natural selection, because natural selection is the process by which evolution occurs. Also, when we call evolution a "theory", what we mean is "a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by rigorous observations in the natural world, or by experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable." [1] Perhaps you are not aware that gravity is also a theory -- should we refrain from teaching it in schools, as well?

There is no empirical or direct evidence (as yet) to support that it is happening, or even possible, and so it's wrong to keep claiming evolution is fact, or has been observed when this is clearly not the case. The theory suggests that creatures that lived underwater now live exclusively on ground, or that a land-based animal has gained the ability to fly - which has not been the case so far.
Where, pray tell, did you get the idea that there is no empirical evidence to support that evolution occurs? There is, in fact, an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the existence of evolution. (The only way something can graduate from being a "hypothesis" to a "theory" is if there is an overwhelming body of evidence supporting it.) Moreover, who, pray tell, told you that evolution has not been observed? Both forms of evolution have been directly observed by actual human scientists. Any other statement is blatant nonsense.

I'm all for debating evolution, but please don't resort to making patently false statements while doing so; then the debate isn't any fun. :)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science
 
Until we have a definitive answer one way or the other, I'm with Galactus:), and won't be convinced until I see worms that sprouted legs, for example (something never observed in fossils), or ostriches that developed jet wings with rocket launching ability (I keep an open mind though, Universe is a big place, lots of weird stuff is happening all the time ).

Some people might call an onychophoran a "worm with legs," though it is more than that.

Seems like people are making judgements without doing any actual reading on the subject, which I find frankly, confusing...
 
I think a major sticking point in the debate over the theory of evolution is the inability or unwillingness of some people to acknowledge there is a fine and very distinct line between Natural Selection (which is an observed and verified process - survival of the fittest) and Evolution which is still theory - one which still causes massive controversy, even among geneticists and other scientists.
No one is saying that natural selection and evolution are different things. In fact, anyone arguing for evolution has a very good understanding of natural selection, because natural selection is the process by which evolution occurs. Also, when we call evolution a "theory", what we mean is "a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by rigorous observations in the natural world, or by experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable." [1] Perhaps you are not aware that gravity is also a theory -- should we refrain from teaching it in schools, as well?

There is no empirical or direct evidence (as yet) to support that it is happening, or even possible, and so it's wrong to keep claiming evolution is fact, or has been observed when this is clearly not the case. The theory suggests that creatures that lived underwater now live exclusively on ground, or that a land-based animal has gained the ability to fly - which has not been the case so far.
Where, pray tell, did you get the idea that there is no empirical evidence to support that evolution occurs? There is, in fact, an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the existence of evolution. (The only way something can graduate from being a "hypothesis" to a "theory" is if there is an overwhelming body of evidence supporting it.) Moreover, who, pray tell, told you that evolution has not been observed? Both forms of evolution have been directly observed by actual human scientists. Any other statement is blatant nonsense.


I'd disagree with that til the cows come home :p Theory by its very definition means that it isn't solid fact. Calling any statement blatant nonsense is an extremely close minded view.

I didn't express myself properly because I rushed my reply a bit (part of the downside of doing this kind of stuff in work). But what is perceived as evolution, for instance, through looking at various fossils through the ages, could again be a form of natural selection, or some other kind of externally influenced mutation.

As I said, I'm keeping an open mind on the whole thing, but personally, it's not a theory I'm a 100% comfortable with given the available evidence.
 
(4) And whichever group has the greater means and will to survive, will tend to dominate its sibling groups, like red and gray squirrels are currently in competition in England, and gray squirrels are winning. Eventually, there will be no red squirrels.

This is an outmoded concept that is not borne out with evidence -- at least none known to me in my readings, and I acknowledge I have only an amateur interest in palaeontology and evolutionary biology.

Well I am referring to the results of the mathematical models rather than real animals.

Competition does amplify advantage. It may simply be that these two species of cats were not in competition, or if they have equal ability to hunt and reproduce, then there is no advantage to amplify. And as the logistic model shows, population numbers do go in cycles. They may have had different hunting styles and different preferred prey. The model solutions are complicated when you introduce umpteen factors like this.

...but the grey squirrels aren't eating all the red squirrels conkers or anything like that.

okay :lol: Now all I need is for somebody to draw a picture of mean mr gray squirrel stealing a conker from a sad looking red squirrel.

But still, disease resistance is an advantage, and one which is causing the relative numbers of gray squiggles to be amplified. It's an indirect kind of competition, where disease is an unintentional weapon used between these two species.
 
Theory by its very definition means that it isn't solid fact.

Of course. It simply means that it is a consistent explanation for the observed facts, and that no competing explanation is demonstrably superior.

There are lots of theories we take for granted as essentially fact. Yet people tend to shy away from this one. It's an interesting psychological phenomenon.
 
Theory by its very definition means that it isn't solid fact.

Of course. It simply means that it is a consistent explanation for the observed facts, and that no competing explanation is demonstrably superior.

There are lots of theories we take for granted as essentially fact. Yet people tend to shy away from this one. It's an interesting psychological phenomenon.
But what he said is still an idiotic statement. I mean gravity is a theory, and yet we're not floating about. Electromagnetism is a theory, but radio, microwaves, light and the other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are still there. Just because something is referred to as a theory doesn't mean it isn't also a fact.
 
If, in the case of the red and grey squirrels, the reds develop an immunity (possibly via mutation), then they will survive and this will be passed to the offspring. It is unlikely, however, that they'll spontaneously evolve a defense for it, and with it the ability to start hunting down the greys.

Consider a comparison with people and diseases.

Some people are better than others at coping with influenza. Some people are bedridded for a month, while others are only down for a week. Some people die from it, even though most survive it. Those who weather it well are more able to reproduce, so their genes/personalities/cognitive abilities are more likely to be inherited in the next generation.

There is no black and white in evolution, rather a slight bias of advantage, like weighting the risk dice. Individuals (one dice roll) can come up with any number, but a whole species (a million dice rolls) shows advantage as a definite trend. And like in risk, we can only prove that the dice are weighted by rolling them many times. So we have to talk in those kind of generalities in this subject.

So across a whole species, some variation might weather misfortune better than another.

That variation has slightly better survival/reproduction, and the next generation has a population bias towards that variation. And providing the conditions remain the same, eventually, that variation replaces its siblings.

Reminder to self: Talk a little about leggy worms next post.
 
When we're talking about large changes in evolution, for example giraffes growing long necks, we dont have any fossil evidence that supports the gradual adaptation model. We don't find fossils of giraffes with medium length necks. Not do we find fossils of worms with legs, or whatever. What we find are distinct species -- not evolutionary intermediates.


Well there are different ways of coming at this in my eyes.

I don't know what giraffes are supposed to have evolved from, whether it was camels or something, but lets say it was species X.

(1) So one X may have had a genetic copy error in one crucial gene, which spontaneously caused it to be born with a very long neck. Other X's may have shunned this child, but as it grew up it was better able to survive because of its ability to reach leaves on higher branches. Seeing this skill, it may have been considered a worthy mate by the opposite sex, and reproduction created more babies with long necks.

Now this long neck may have introduced complications, such as blood circulation problems, arthritis, inadequate neck muscles, swallowing difficulties. This is where gradual adaptation comes in, where the whole genetic code drifts from species X, to something better able to support the longer neck. This adapted genetic blueprint would be that of a giraffe.


(2) A birth defect, rather than a genetic error may have created a giraffe with a long neck. But still, this creature is better able to survive because of its ability to reach the leaves on higher branches. This child may carry its mother's predisposition to similar birth defects, and so the trait survives reproduction through a chain of female offspring.

The giraffe may not actually have a genetic code for a long neck, but a genetic code for a birth defect. And over time, there is this gradual adaptation, which 'refines' the uterus of the mother to perfect this birth defect, favouring a successful pregnancy and delivery of a child with it. There may also be a simultaneous genetic adaptation similar to (1) where the whole genetic code drifts from species X, to something better able to support the longer neck, and this adapted genetic blueprint would be a giraffe.

Furthermore, once the advantage is established, the genetics may then adapt to support long necked giraffes genetically instead of through a predispostion to birth defects. The birth defect trait slowly becomes redundant, as the giraffe becomes genetically defined with the long neck, although there is no outward sign of this change in the shape of the giraffe. So this stage could have taken a long time.




(3) Natural variation means that giraffes all have different neck lengths, and some are longer than others. We can hypothesise that the long neck evolvers were a minority group of giraffes -- a group with naturally slightly longer necks. There may have been greater sexual attraction between likenesses, so the longer necks are favoured mates by other longer necks. And this small group is highly inbread, causing their number to be kept to a very small percentage of the populus of species X, so no fossils. But as their neck length advantage grows, so does their survival rate, and gradual adaptation takes them to what we know as giraffes.



So to summarise:

(1) A random mutation creates a mutant with a significantly different feature, which is better able to survive and genetically adapts to better accomodate the mutation, so becoming the new species.

(2) Abnormal pregnancy conditions create a child with a significantly different feature, which is better able to survive, and it propogates through a maturnal line. These physical characteristics slowly become emulated via genetic adaptation, so becoming the new species.

(3) Gradual adaptation occurs within a small inbread minority group, which both drives them away from their ancestors, and focuses their adaptation. This group expands its population after it has better adapted, so becomming the new species.




Strange offspring happens often. Usually it is an impairment, whether that's from social exclusion or a physical or mental inability. But there's no reason why one can't get a lucky straw now and then, where strangeness is the beginning of something superior...


It also overlaps with cryptozoology.



Other interesting related facts:

-- It is estimated that everyone has at least one genetic copy error in their lifetime. So when we die we're mutants.

-- There is the phenomenon of mosaicism, where a creature/person is a fusion of two different genetic codes. For example, your left hand side might be one code and your right hand side a different code. This may cause different coloured body hair on different areas of the body, or different eye colour, or different lengths of limbs. It can also happen with sex chromosones so that a person is genetically female upstairs and genetically male downstairs.

-- Plants can also have interesting genetic mutations, and when they do it can be spectacular. For example, trees can grow strange branches with weird leaves and creepy looking fruits. Imagine an apple tree with an anomolous twisty branch, bearing huge purple leaves and black leathery apples covered in long furry tentacles. Who would dare to eat it?



:)
 
Theory by its very definition means that it isn't solid fact.

Of course. It simply means that it is a consistent explanation for the observed facts, and that no competing explanation is demonstrably superior.

There are lots of theories we take for granted as essentially fact. Yet people tend to shy away from this one. It's an interesting psychological phenomenon.
But what he said is still an idiotic statement. I mean gravity is a theory, and yet we're not floating about. Electromagnetism is a theory, but radio, microwaves, light and the other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum are still there. Just because something is referred to as a theory doesn't mean it isn't also a fact.

To add to the pile on, evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution is the attempt to explain the mechanisms that govern it. Similarly, gravity is a fact. The theory of gravity is the attempt to explain the mechanisms that govern it... and it is currently incomplete. It certainly doesn't mean that the theory as a whole is useless! And the same goes for evolution.
 
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