Calling All Shippers! Mediation Thread

[Evalyn]

Well, actually, we don't all do it. And perhaps the reason why I don't is that I am happy for other people who've found something to enjoy about the show, that makes them happy.

For two reasons:
1) I like it when everyone's happy and
2) the more happy fans there are, the more likely the show is to stay on the air.

And that, my friends, is what we should all be hoping for.

 

[Top41]

Posted by RedFenix:
The "seperate threads" have been going on for SO DAMN BLOODY LONG that both sides have run out of constructive things to talk about!! Instead the same things are re-hashed (even though it's old and people are tired of reading them again and again), or the thread dissolves into chat-room-type spamming during which it's become like a ridiculous horse race now to see which side can post more than the other. When you run out of constructive things to talk about (let's face it, we both have), the bashing begins.

This would suggest to me that it might be a good idea to have a short break from 'shipper threads, maybe for a week or two? It's just a suggestion but if everyone is running out of things to talk about and fights are erupting everywhere, maybe it's a good time to take a short break from the threads, rather than have the fighting continue.

The other thing is how it bleeds into other threads. Commentary on characters and even ships are okay in other threads (so long as it doesn't get dragged off topic), but 'shipper sniping isn't. For example, jumping into a thread with comments like "Not another thread criticizing Trip " or "I'm so tired of people saying they think Archer and T'Pol don't belong together" doesn't help. People are going to say things all the time that you don't agree with. If you can't be civil, the best thing to do is not to post.

I guess I'll lay out here what I'd like to see. Two 'shipper threads (one for each 'ship) running concurrently. The discussion is mainly focuses on the 'ship itself--what has happened, what could happen, the characters' feelings, etc.--the stuff you guys normally have. I think it would be better to keep them separate, but you have to remember that no one is forbidden to go into a thread. It would just be a courtesy to stay in your own thread. (Obviously, trolling and flaming are completely no gos). Basically, I'd like to see you guys with the freedom to discuss what you want in the thread, without having to feel the other side is looking over your shoulder. That, of course, would have to be a group effort. And people would have to keep in mind that a dig at a 'ship or character is not a dig at those who like that 'ship/character.

 

[Ulva]

Posted by Evalyn:
Well, actually, we don't all do it. And perhaps the reason why I don't is that I am happy for other people who've found something to enjoy about the show, that makes them happy.

For two reasons:
1) I like it when everyone's happy and
2) the more happy fans there are, the more likely the show is to stay on the air.

And that, my friends, is what we should all be hoping for.

Yes, nothing good comes out of fighting amongst our selves. We all want ENT to keep on going and this animosity is just throwing a damper on everything. We have people out here who is campaigning for the end of ENT, something we should worry more about...

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Top41:
<snip>
The other thing is how it bleeds into other threads. Commentary on characters and even ships are okay in other threads (so long as it doesn't get dragged off topic), but 'shipper sniping isn't. For example, jumping into a thread with comments like "Not another thread criticizing Trip " or "I'm so tired of people saying they think Archer and T'Pol don't belong together" doesn't help. People are going to say things all the time that you don't agree with. If you can't be civil, the best thing to do is not to post.

I agree with this.

I guess I'll lay out here what I'd like to see. Two 'shipper threads (one for each 'ship) running concurrently. The discussion is mainly focuses on the 'ship itself--what has happened, what could happen, the characters' feelings, etc.--the stuff you guys normally have. I think it would be better to keep them separate, but you have to remember that no one is forbidden to go into a thread. It would just be a courtesy to stay in your own thread. (Obviously, trolling and flaming are completely no gos). Basically, I'd like to see you guys with the freedom to discuss what you want in the thread, without having to feel the other side is looking over your shoulder. That, of course, would have to be a group effort. And people would have to keep in mind that a dig at a 'ship or character is not a dig at those who like that 'ship/character.

I also like this idea. If what you're suggesting could work that would be great.

 

[RedFenix]

Posted by Top41:
I guess I'll lay out here what I'd like to see. Two 'shipper threads (one for each 'ship) running concurrently. The discussion is mainly focuses on the 'ship itself--what has happened, what could happen, the characters' feelings, etc.--the stuff you guys normally have. I think it would be better to keep them separate, but you have to remember that no one is forbidden to go into a thread. It would just be a courtesy to stay in your own thread. (Obviously, trolling and flaming are completely no gos). Basically, I'd like to see you guys with the freedom to discuss what you want in the thread, without having to feel the other side is looking over your shoulder. That, of course, would have to be a group effort. And people would have to keep in mind that a dig at a 'ship or character is not a dig at those who like that 'ship/character.

This sounds very fair and it's also what I'd like to see. However, I also agree with what you said here...

This would suggest to me that it might be a good idea to have a short break from 'shipper threads, maybe for a week or two? It's just a suggestion but if everyone is running out of things to talk about and fights are erupting everywhere, maybe it's a good time to take a short break from the threads, rather than have the fighting continue.

A break is absolutely needed. I'd actually prefer that it lasted the remainder of the summer, because the tensions have been running pretty hot for...well, for as long as I can remember...and I regged here over a year ago July. Obviously the past couple weeks have been exponentially worse though, and as someone pointed out earlier, I've been participating in the "fun and games" too. I think the problem that we have now is the rerun blues where everyone's antsy and more prone to sniping. Will a week or two be enough of a slap on the wrist? I don't know. But I absolutely agree that we need some downtime.

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Top41:

Posted by Jen Raasch:
This is the same situation, except it revolves around two characters. Now the Mods in Charge are saying that debate is to be discouraged, not encouraged. Debating is the real substance of a thread. And now that's a no-no.

I wouldn't say that at all, though. The question is whether or not to have debate or not, but what exactly is being debated/discussed. The T/T's want to discuss the chemistry in "Damage" and the A/T's want to discuss the possible future "Twilight" showed--neither side seems to want to debate the same old "Should T'Pol be with Trip or Archer?" in each and every thread. At least, that's my take on it.

Agreed. I don't like the "Who should T'Pol be with and why?" threads. It goes on and on, and can lead to bad things.

I think a person's opinions on character interaction affect their 'shippyness more than those types of discussion. And that the discussions can get heated, leading to people saying things they may later regret.

 

[DAK]

Posted by RedFenix:
A break is absolutely needed. I'd actually prefer that it lasted the remainder of the summer, because the tensions have been running pretty hot for...well, for as long as I can remember...and I regged here over a year ago July. Obviously the past couple weeks have been exponentially worse though, and as someone pointed out earlier, I've been participating in the "fun and games" too. I think the problem that we have now is the rerun blues where everyone's antsy and more prone to sniping. Will a week or two be enough of a slap on the wrist? I don't know. But I absolutely agree that we need some downtime.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I think this is very unfair to those who do stay in their own thread and don't flame or bash others. With all due respect, if you feel you need downtime by all means take some. I for one am enjoying discussing the spoilers and speculations for the upcoming season.

 

[Ulva]

I would very much resent 'a slap on the wrist' b/c I feel I haven't participated in any baiting, flaiming or trolling against anyone posting here. I don't like what's happened lately but I would still want to be able to continue to discuss my favorite 'ship. It's all just a matter of taking a deep breath and letting go of what's happened previously...

 

[Jenna]

A break from shipper threads won't do anything, IMO. I don't think the shipper threads are the problem. It's the intolerance behind them that is.

Everyone here knows when they are posting something that's going to anger another member. Unless they're a complete newbie, they know what's going to happen. I've even seen people post things, get the response they WANT, and then reply that it was exactly what they expected and get all huffy and offended with lots of and snarkiness.

That's when I start to think there need to be harsher trolling rules around here.

As for the signatures, well, some are designed to anger others, and we all know which ones they are. All it does is reflect badly on the maturity of the poster.

Now, whoever said that we should stay out of each other's shipper threads is right on. But I'm completely disgusted that anyone would think it's okay to bar people from rage threads about a character or actor and not a 'ship. Heck, that Bakula thread is hardly EVER about Archer. It's got great pics from QL and all his movies and everything. Why is it that when I go in there with nothing but good thoughts I'm immediately attacked and shoved out?

All that proves is that some people can't separate actor from characer and that they don't deserve my input anyway. It still stings, but that's my rationalization to make myself feel better about that meanness. The Trip thread isn't a Connor Trinneer thread. It's a Trip Tucker thread, so it's not going to attract as many differing points of view. Still, if someone who likes Archer came in there and wanted to participate, I certainly wouldn't exclude them. Liking one character or actor is not mutually exclusive of liking another.

I'm jumping around a little here, but here goes another thing. Episode threads. What irritated me yesterday and prompted my ill-conceived devil-driven response today was a comment taunting me about disliking "A Night in Sickbay". I must have stated 20 times, RESPECTFULLY, that I did not care for that episode. Then, in an entirely different thread having NOTHING to do with ANIS, I get poked at for it. For heaven's sake, leave it in the thread!

It's not hard. If you want to talk about shipper stuff, keep it in the thread. If you want to talk about an episode specifically, keep it in the thread. If you want to rage about a character, keep it in the thread. If you feel like taunting someone, have the guts to do it through a PM.

Some of the stuff that's said in here would NEVER be said if we were all face to face.

 

[Top41]

I do think it's important to not hold anyone's opinion against them, in any thread. People who don't like Archer can still discuss his character with thoughfulness and maturity. People who don't like Trip have a right to say that they think he made a mistake in episode X, and so on. Not liking a character is not an insult to those who do; rather, it gives you a chance to eloquently say why you do like that character. That's the nature of discussion/debate.

At any rate, I think it would help if we lost the labels. A T/T supporter can still like Archer; an A/T fan can still think Trip is a fun character.

 

[Jenna]

^ Here here.

 

[commodore64]

Well, I'll tell you. These have been some of the wackiest few weeks ever. All was Quiet on the Western front until a few things happened and I actually became angry, mostly at what I feel like is a bunch of hypocrisy.

1) Personal attacks against an actress for her words about a *character*. Very unclassy. Talk about her acting abilities if you hate her, but don't call her a sleaze. The hypocrisy there is -- she's taken off clothes in a scene I bet some of you enjoy. I can understand if your favorite character is Tucker how her opinion would be hurtful. Maybe the best thing to do is to take it to HoT for that kind of backlash, rather than openly discuss it here.

2) I am not allowed to say *anything* negative about Trip what-so-ever, but I'll it seems to be okie dokie to read a bunch of stuff about Super!Archer and how you personally hate him. I think criticizing Archer is fine. I believe I should be allowed to occassionally criticize Trip. What's funny is, I actually like the character.

3) When I state fact, I hear it's really perception. When I state perception, I hear it's wrong. So, basically I've been told anything I say is incorrect.

Opinion: a belief or thought. There's not really right or wrong on opinion, but the exciting part is discussing them. Example: "I bet they discussed that off-camera."

Fact: things that can be backed up with hard evidence and do not have objection. Example: Tucker is an engineer. T'Pol is a science officer. Archer is the captain.

It's *very* important to know these distinctions. I can want and hope that T'Pol has told Archer she loves him, but that would not be fact. And when I state fact, I do not like hearing "Oh brother, she's at it again."

What's particularly irritating is the tone. "Oh brother, she's at it again." Respectful? I think so.

-----------------

The bottom line is -- I think we all love to discuss the episodes. We all love to discuss the interactions of the characters. I'd love to stick to these things, and stick to the topics [unless people are being fun and funny].

I think these things will help immensely.

Also bottom line -- peace is important. I like to get along. I think there are many terrific shippers, and even the ones I disagree with are usually pretty nice. Zane and Quills are nice folks, even if they disagree with me. For the most part they're respectful. From time-to-time, one of them may rub me the wrong way, but we usually get over things through a PM or allow some time to pass. Respecting each other is important.

I have to say JKladis has done an excellent job at keeping the boards sane. He is my absolute favorite moderator. I think he's just and swift. Those qualities are very important. Thanks, JK, for doing such a bang up job!

 

[Ulva]

Posted by Top41:
At any rate, I think it would help if we lost the labels. A T/T supporter can still like Archer; an A/T fan can still think Trip is a fun character.

Absolutely!

 

[RedFenix]

Posted by Jenna:
A break from shipper threads won't do anything, IMO. I don't think the shipper threads are the problem. It's the intolerance behind them that is.

You're quite right. I've been around here long enough to know though that while things cycle, and appear to simmer down, they undoubtedly resurface again when new things pop up. The intolerance is unfortunately set very deep and it never goes away.

Jenna, I don't know what happened in the Bakula thread, but I apologize. Just know though that for every bad experience you've had, many of us have had similar experiences that we've reacted to similarly, which is where a lot of the hostility comes from (not that it makes it right). I don't think that pointing fingers though is going to solve anything. As Ulva said, the only thing to do is put things behind us. Unfortunately many of us (myself included, and others who have been here longer than I have) have quite a bit of baggage to carry. The mature thing to do of course is to trash it and burn it, but it's not easy. I would like all of this to end. I'm willing to admit my own mistakes in this and attempt a peace, because I think Evalyn said it best when she said that in the end, we're all Enterprise fans. We all love this show, for whatever our reasons, and I think everyone's ultimate goal is to see it last for a long time to come.

To the above posters who disagreed with the closing down of threads - I'm sorry. No, it's not fair to punish those who never participated in the bashing, but it really is the most effective and logical solution I can think of. I don't know. Just IMO, of course.

 

['Shippy]

Posted by DAK:

Posted by RedFenix:
A break is absolutely needed. I'd actually prefer that it lasted the remainder of the summer, because the tensions have been running pretty hot for...well, for as long as I can remember...and I regged here over a year ago July. Obviously the past couple weeks have been exponentially worse though, and as someone pointed out earlier, I've been participating in the "fun and games" too. I think the problem that we have now is the rerun blues where everyone's antsy and more prone to sniping. Will a week or two be enough of a slap on the wrist? I don't know. But I absolutely agree that we need some downtime.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I think this is very unfair to those who do stay in their own thread and don't flame or bash others. With all due respect, if you feel you need downtime by all means take some. I for one am enjoying discussing the spoilers and speculations for the upcoming season.

I agree with you Dak. Even if some people want to take a break from a 'shipper thread, I don't think everyone would agree to part with the thread.

Not in response to your post, about the topic in general:

I'm glad this thread is here for the mods. to clarify what they like and don't like. I've been kind of wondering what flies and doesn't fly around here sometimes.

It's also good to here about constructive solutions from posters.

 

[Jenna]

AH! Okay, I'm about to lose it. Maybe coming in here wasn't a good idea. I'm going to address Commodore directly. You said "T'Pol has never indicated deeper feelings for Trip" to which I replied it was a matter of perception. IT IS A MATTER OF PERCEPTION. Some of us believe that while T'Pol may not have come out delcaring her undying love, she's "indicated" a deeper interest in other ways.

It's EXACTLY the same as you saying you think she's indicated a deeper interest in Archer. Neither claim is supported by any overt words. It's in our perception of specific scenes!

WTF. I don't get it. "Hypocrisy" is not disliking an actor's words and still liking her character. That's logic. Hypocrisy is accusing the other side of something you do as well. I've never claimed to be innocent of this.

 

[commodore64]

Posted by Jenna:
AH! Okay, I'm about to lose it. Maybe coming in here wasn't a good idea. I'm going to address Commodore directly.

This is the tone I was speaking about.

You said "T'Pol has never indicated deeper feelings for Trip" to which I replied it was a matter of perception. IT IS A MATTER OF PERCEPTION. Some of us believe that while T'Pol may not have come out delcaring her undying love, she's "indicated" a deeper interest in other ways.

My point was: she has not yet said she feels this way. And this is exactly my point. I certainly think it's possible she could. But, I think that's opinion.

It's EXACTLY the same as you saying you think she's indicated a deeper interest in Archer. Neither claim is supported by any overt words. It's in our perception of specific scenes!

I agree with that. My *opinion* is that T'Pol cares for Archer deeply. I would like it to be more than friendship. I'm not sure where you're arguing with me here. I think I agree with the above.

WTF. I don't get it. "Hypocrisy" is not disliking an actor's words and still liking her character. That's logic. Hypocrisy is accusing the other side of something you do as well. I've never claimed to be innocent of this.

Actually, I don't believe you were guilty of this. Hypocrisy is saying, "Jolene is a sleaze for taking off her clothes. I love the shower scene in Damage."

Is there a reason you're so angry?

 

[Deanna Troi]

Posted by Jenna:
Now, whoever said that we should stay out of each other's shipper threads is right on. But I'm completely disgusted that anyone would think it's okay to bar people from rage threads about a character or actor and not a 'ship. Heck, that Bakula thread is hardly EVER about Archer. It's got great pics from QL and all his movies and everything. Why is it that when I go in there with nothing but good thoughts I'm immediately attacked and shoved out?

Jenna, I'm sorry you felt unwelcome in the Bakula thread. It's one of my favourite threads on the board, and anyone is free to post in it. I love posting pics there and I'm glad so many people are enjoying the pics of Scott's earlier work. Please feel free to participate there.

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Ulva:
I would very much resent 'a slap on the wrist' b/c I feel I haven't participated in any baiting, flaiming or trolling against anyone posting here. I don't like what's happened lately but I would still want to be able to continue to discuss my favorite 'ship. It's all just a matter of taking a deep breath and letting go of what's happened previously...

I understand.

I've seen a lot of stuff directed from both sides. But, not everyone is involved.

I like what you said about letting go.

I'm sure I've done some things that people didn't like. I try to just discuss and debate. But, I'm debate happy sometimes, and can get mad. Preview post has saved my butt more times than I can count.

 

[DAK]

Posted by commodore64:
1) Personal attacks against an actress for her words about a *character*. Very unclassy.

As are personal attacks against an actor's physical appearance. A very nasty comment was posted about Connor Trinnear a while ago. "It was just a joke" doesn't cut it when it was obviously made to anger and rile those people who happen to like him. So you see 'very unclassy' applies to people on both "sides".