Calling All Shippers! Mediation Thread

[commodore64]

*C64 holds out a plate of food to Jenna and cowers*

Angie is a fabulous, salt of the Earth kinda person. Any lumping she did, I'm sure she doesn't mean. We've been using "you" a lot in this thread -- I think it means you in general, not "you."

Jenna, you may be right about Trippers leaping to Blalock's defense. I can only tell you how I feel. I felt I was leaping to her defense, as was Angie and RedFenix, but I didn't notice a lot of Trippers defending her. Granted, there's an automatic "us" vs. "them" built into our exciting [and it really is when you look at it, one of the many reasons I liked a triangle] rivalry. I will admit, there are some diehard T'Pol fans, I think Myst and Stubbie might be two.

That's a very interesting point though. In the Archer/T'Pol world, the stats are very weird. 50% like T'Pol as their favorite character adn 50% like Archer as theirs. When I voted, I felt it was easy. Archer, season 3 Archer, was tortured and hurt. I really liked the character. But, there's a sense about me that's very protective of T'Pol. In fact, I think because of it I realize that my vote was more a 60%/40% -- 60% for Archer, but strongly liking T'Pol. I don't think the character is a sleaze; I think she's trying to find herself. And, I don't mind her breaking Archer's heart. I'd prefer she didn't, because I think they'd be so incredible together, but if it were interesting to watch, it might be okay to crush his spirit.

Onto a different matter entirely, I have to say the *one* thing that really disturbs me is calling Archer a sexual harasser. Perhaps this is personal, but I think this is like my one hot button. Sexual harassers are social deviants in my book. I think Archer might be confused and attracted, but not a deviant. Is there any way you can knock that off? I'd be willing to make a concession.

 

[Jenna]

*digs her last crab rangoon out of the fridge* Thanks C64.

I don't get the sexual harrassment thing either. I didn't like ANIS, but even I won't say he went that far. He might have blurted out something inappropriate, but sexual harrassment to me implies an intent to offend. He didn't MEAN to say that.

As for the poll numbers... the T/T poll has fallen away, but if I recall correctly the votes ended up being nearly even between Trip and T'Pol. Trip was slightly ahead, but I expected that. The poll debunked the idea that T/Ters "use" T'Pol for anything. I feel protective of her too, especially given the crap she went through in s3 (thanks a lot, writers).

 

[cubbie]

Posted by commodore64:
Cubbie -- I think saying, "I wish Blalock hadn't said that" or "I find that objectionable" is fine. Calling her a "sleaze" because of it isn't, imo. It's a fine line.

Questioning an actor for being on the cover of magazines = fine. Calling her a "slut" and then praising how she dirobed in Damage makes me feel "ick." I think certainly it's hypocrisy, but there's something about it like "Women who take off their clothing in a fashion I like is good, but in a fashion I don't like is not good" that kinda feels like an insult to me as a woman. I know I'm not alone on this one.

You know what's funny, I have less objections to the way Bakula and Archer are treated than that of T'Pol [and Archer's my favorite character]. I would love for you [in general] to treat Blalock and even T'Pol with a little more warmth. If she is the apple of your favorite character's eye -- she at least deserves some love.

This is my opinion by the way. Many of "you" [in general] treat T'Pol very well.

Maybe this is my bias -- I like her character an awful lot and think the actress is cool [she doesn't mince words in the same way that Mr. Trinneer does not]. I admire this.

Commodore, I understand what you are trying to say when you compare nudity in a magazine and nudity in a scene for Enterprise. But they are also very different. The naked human body can be very beautiful to view. But posing naked to sell yourself to the public is not. I know that some people will say the two events are comparable, but I cannot. I hope you understand why I object to you calling this hypocrisy.

A criticism of an actor doesn't mean it is a personal attack against the actor. Assumptions shouldn't be made in a kneejerk response.

 

[RedFenix]

Posted by commodore64:
Onto a different matter entirely, I have to say the *one* thing that really disturbs me is calling Archer a sexual harasser. Perhaps this is personal, but I think this is like my one hot button. Sexual harassers are social deviants in my book. I think Archer might be confused and attracted, but not a deviant. Is there any way you can knock that off? I'd be willing to make a concession.

I was going to bring that up, since we seem to be discussing specifics, but thank you, Commie, for doing it. This seriously bothers me as well. People can call T'Pol a crack whore, and while grating, I might agree. People can call Archer stupid, and I'll agree that he's been that...on occasion. But calling Archer a sexual harrasser? That's my hot spot too. Maybe this just hits personal (a man who was like my second father was thrown into jail and his career as a dance teacher ruined because someone toyed too loosely with terms like "sexual harassment" and "child molestor"), but I find that terribly offensive. As a feminist myself I would never, in my life, support or hold any love for someone who treats anyone, woman or otherwise, in that manner. And let's just say it dredges up some rather unpleasant memories when that term is thrown about so loosely just because someone doesn't like the character.

I think overall I've got a pretty thick skin. But the Blalock bashing (especially in assuming that she's not entitled to an opinion because she's posed in girlie mags) and the Archer "sexual harrassment" are where I draw the line. Bash Archer if you like...call him stupid, call him a dirty dog shagger if that's what floats your boat (I think we agreed that character criticizing was ok)...but leave the you-know-what out of it. Disagree with or dislike Ms. Blalock all you want for her opinions...but don't make assumptions or generalizations about her personal life that are more than likely not true anyway.

 

[commodore64]

Posted by Jenna:
*digs her last crab rangoon out of the fridge* Thanks C64.

I don't get the sexual harrassment thing either. I didn't like ANIS, but even I won't say he went that far. He might have blurted out something inappropriate, but sexual harrassment to me implies an intent to offend. He didn't MEAN to say that.

As for the poll numbers... the T/T poll has fallen away, but if I recall correctly the votes ended up being nearly even between Trip and T'Pol. Trip was slightly ahead, but I expected that. The poll debunked the idea that T/Ters "use" T'Pol for anything. I feel protective of her too, especially given the crap she went through in s3 (thanks a lot, writers).

Well, perhaps we are more alike than we think. [You can scream now.] Thanks. Seriously, the whole sexual harassment thing bothers me.

 

[Jenna]

I would appreciate it if that would stop. I would also like it if we could stop saying that Trip took advantage of a woman in Harbinger. It's the same argument. T'Pol came onto him, and he certainly didn't know she was using the Trell. He didn't take advantage of her, and I heartily resent the rape comment I saw a few weeks ago. Also, that episode... Amanda Cole can stand up for herself. Trip is such an idiot sometimes when it comes to women. Look at how many times his naivete has gotten him into hot water...

 

[pookha]

i would hate to see the shipper threads closed down.. in between the silliness on the t/t threads we do break out into some interesting discussions.
and because we have gotten several new people in over the last several weeks we have new voices offering opinions.

and i dont mind the occassional question from the respected opposition either but it is when the tone changes to were it sounds as if an attempt to derail the fun is where i would like to see a line drawn.

and read the other shipper thread if you wish but not if it will upset you.. better not to read at all then go hit the mod button or come back whining into your own thread about what you saw.

actually one thing i am happy about it the return of the character rage threads,, when they went away in the past it took some of the fun out of the place.
and when they are done well they can be both giddy gushing and serious examination of the character often on the same page.

back to the shipper threads,, i think it would help if both groups did a little self policing without running to a mod.. if one of your own gets out of hand send them a pm to chill down a little.

i think there has been stuff on both sides were people instead of trying to chill each other out have been working each other into a lather.

and yeah sometimes the ship stuff leaks out to much into other threads.. now i think it was impossibole to keep it out of the home thread but i have seen it show up in some odd places.

 

[witchie]

Great thread. Hope it helps, but the pessimist in me doubts it. I'm a veteran of the Buffy shipper wars. So coming here was actually a breath of fresh air. I couldn't believe differing ships could coexist together. I was wrong.

No matter what non-shipper thread you're in, your preference of ship comes into play. The most "rational" of people cannot remove their ship blinders and see that your opinion is not steeped in the romance. I didn't like Jolene's honky tonk quip. I'm from the South, but instead of respecting MO, people put it down to my liking Trip and if she'd said it about Archer, I would have been okay with it. WTF?! No, I wouldn't have.

That's just one instance. There have been others. I can't post a knock against Archer's captaining skills without being accused of disliking SB. It's beyond ridiculous and the thing that really gets my craw is the patronizing responses from the very people guility of turning things into shipper wars. It's always the T/T people doing it. It's always you Trip lovers. It's irritating, and until some people get off their high horses and acknowledge their part in making things testy here, nothing will change.

Oh, and here's a suggestion, stop posting in shipper rage threads. I don't go to the A/T thread. I don't understand why people come into the T/T thread, post, then head back over to discuss what's being said in it. You don't like Trip, then stay out of a thread discussing his relationship with T'Pol. It's irritating and makes me pissy.

Must go to bed.

 

[emerald_lady]

Cubbie makes excellent points. I'm distressed that my thinking Jolene's comments in her sci-fi interview were silly and dumb are considered tanatamount to calling her "sleazy." Yes, I laughed at her interview about how "offended" she was by what was done to her charcter this season. Jolene agreed to be portrayed as an oversexualized character from day one by portraying a "logical" Vulcan who would not insist on wearing a professional uniform while on duty. Spock didn't wear clothes that showed us his buttcheeks. Now before you scream at me, I'm not faulting Jolene for taking the part. If I were younger and someone had offered me the T'Pol part, I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Great money, great break for her career. I don't have issues with a woman being sexual. However, I roll my eyes at her sudden objections to being a "floozy" when she hasn't portrayed the typical Vulcan all along, has had no objections to the character being highly sexualized in her dress, and performed "Bounty," a total degradation and exploitation of her character's sexuality, without complaint. From my POV, once they all did "Bounty" all bets were off. Bounty was as gross as it gets. Thus, JB's indignation struck me as ridiculous. I'm sorry. Does that mean I think she's not entitled to an opinion because she's playing a sexy part or has posed in sexy pictures? Of course she's entitled. But I'm equally as entitled to think she's being ridiculous.

Is thinking an actor is being silly considered too contentious or "baiting"? I've also praised JB's work ethic in spite of the fact that she didn't like the storyline. I think Ms. Blalock does a fantastic job as the character and I don't think her a "sleaze" at all. There's a difference between sleazy and silly. I hear she's actually much more pleasant a person to get along with on set than Linda. Can't I praise the work and not agree with the actress?

Personally, I think we should all agree to stay out of the "shipper" and romance threads we don't agree with for the time being. That seems to be the only solution to ease tensions. I'll agree to stay out.

As far as Archer being a sexual harrasser in ANIS, no he wasn't but the charater admitting to his subordinate that he was hot for her--especially after his Freudian slips about her boobs--was not smart writing on Rick and Brannon's part. A boss could set himself up for trouble if his employee were overly sensitive. Archer didn't intend to harass, no, but the conversation as presented tip toed across a fine line. I roll my eyes at Scott and Jolene thinking it was such a great episode, but once again that's my opinion. Love their work. Think their taste is dubious. ANIS imparted entirely too much of the "tee hee, she has boobies" mentality. It made Archer like look a jerk. I like Archer, so making him look like a jerk makes me mad.

So--is disagreeing with the actors considered baiting?

 

[commodore64]

Posted by cubbie866:
Commodore, I understand what you are trying to say when you compare nudity in a magazine and nudity in a scene for Enterprise. But they are also very different. The naked human body can be very beautiful to view. But posing naked to sell yourself to the public is not. I know that some people will say the two events are comparable, but I cannot. I hope you understand why I object to you calling this hypocrisy.

I suspect this is larger than the Enterprise forum. I think they are 100% comparable. And, yes, I think overall the human body is beautiful. Then again, I would never volunteer to have my picture taken while nude; I'm bashful. The Enterprise people [all of them] are handsome. I think every single one of them are attractive. I think if aliens saw Linda Park or Jolene Blalock as the typical human female, I'd be up shit creek. And yet, I don't feel in competition with either them and honor their decisions.

When it comes to the guys on Enterprise, we are truly blessed. These guys [all of them] are very attractive. Although I might think Archer is the hottest, I think honestly all of them are good looking. My second favorite is probably Phlox. Geeky and funny go a very long way for me.

A criticism of an actor doesn't mean it is a personal attack against the actor. Assumptions shouldn't be made in a kneejerk response.

I would suspect you and I have different definitions of criticism. If you said Jolene couldn't act, I may have disagreed and pouted, but wouldn't rise to defend her "honor." I suspect I may have hit on a very sacred issue for you. As a liberal, I may think women can choose whatever path they want, including being a model. And maybe you're more conservative.

JKladis, . [I meant that icon.]

 

[angie]

Commodore, I understand what you are trying to say when you compare nudity in a magazine and nudity in a scene for Enterprise. But they are also very different. The naked human body can be very beautiful to view. But posing naked to sell yourself to the public is not. I know that some people will say the two events are comparable, but I cannot. I hope you understand why I object to you calling this hypocrisy.

This arguement came up before and actresses have specific clauses about how the film nudity is handled because they know it is the same thing someone is making money off them taking off items of clothing which is one of the factors of why it wasn't Ms. Blalock who dropped that robe in Harbinger.

angie

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Jenna:
I would appreciate it if that would stop. I would also like it if we could stop saying that Trip took advantage of a woman in Harbinger. It's the same argument. T'Pol came onto him, and he certainly didn't know she was using the Trell. He didn't take advantage of her, and I heartily resent the rape comment I saw a few weeks ago. Also, that episode... Amanda Cole can stand up for herself. Trip is such an idiot sometimes when it comes to women. Look at how many times his naivete has gotten him into hot water...

I didn't like that comment about Trip either. I pointed it out to the poster in that thread. It was just consentual sex.

 

[LLAP2U]

Okay... here goes...

First off closing down shipper threads would not make any difference. That is the only reason I come here and I believe that it is the same for a lot of people. If you close them down I am off of the board because I think that this is a board to be able to discuss things in regard to ENT and that includes loving a favorite pair on my favorite show. I would love to continue to do so.

Second... it is funny that a lot of the people that cause a lot of the arguments on the board are the main ones here screaming about 'fairness' and 'let's get along'. I think that is wonderful... but let's practice what we preach.

Thord...I made comments about Ms. Blalock's comments and I think that if she has the right to say what she did about both of my favorite character's from ENT, then I have a right to disagree with her. I posted my views and certain people tried to turn it into a 'shipper' thing by saying "if she said this about Archer you would not feel that way". THAT is how arguments begin. Take a statement at face value rather than assuming how someone will react personally. I even said that I love T'Pol but watching Ms. Blalock in interviews has put me off from her personally, so you can not confuse the actress and the character. I was attacked for that. I think that ALL of us should have the right to not like or be attracted to the actor just because we like the character! It's called seperating fantasy from reality...

Fourth... I love going over to the A/T' board and I only comment when there is something of interest to me and I am always respectful when I 'tread in their waters'. It is not always so for everyone. The problem is that ALL of us suffer if someone makes a stupid comment in the opposing thread. If you can't handle what is being said then don't go there. When they call us stupid, inferior or weird I just laugh at it and shake my head. However, I was glad to see that the mods eventually jumped on them for several inflammatory comments for a change...... Because I know we get flagged a lot in our thread for seemingly small things... even when we appear to be on topic. I can understand limiting the chit chat (there is a lot of that and the poor servers... I feel for them... ) but if I say that I think Archer is stupid at times, or that I have just earned my respect for him this season I should be able to in my own shipper thread. But I would not purposelt go into the A/T' thread and say it knowing that that is a thread for praising the character. I say it everywhere else on the board however! But once again respect each other's threads and stay on the topic of the thread and we won't have this problem!

Fifth... Yes...I have called him 'Super Archer' and I meant it. I hate it when a show has someone doing 'the superhero thing'. And don't lecture me about Kirk... I like the team of ENT and not a single person being the end all be all of the show. I have a right to say that... It is my opinion and I respect yours if it is different.

Sixth... I have tried to calm threads down through humor and understanding on many occasions and even though I understand that everyone has a different sense of humor I don't understand it when someone continues to be a Tellerite... 'not arguing for logic or reason but simply arguing'. That is when I don't blame the mods for shutting down a thread and I really believe that some people do that JUST to shut down the thread on purpose because they don't like the topic. This goes for both sides... Crap like that has to stop... For those of us that are enjoying the thread it becomes quite irritating... If you don't like the topic don't respond irresponsibly in the thread. And don't ruin someone else's good time because you disagree with it.

In short all 'shipper' problems would be resolved if people remembered......

Healthy Spirited Debate = Good

Nasty Verbal Attacks = Bad

That's my 20 credits!!!

 

[Kurgan]

I don't understand 'Shippers and disagree with them 99.9% of the time, but it doesn't mean they don't have the same right to express their opinions here as others do.I also don't understand why people would hurl insults at each other here.Kind of grade school, don't you think?

 

['Shippy]

Posted by Zane Gray:
Uncle Zane's Shipper Rules to Live By:

1. Shippers on both sides need to stop LOOKING for reasons to be offended. Those who always search for the negative things in life generally miss out on enjoying the positive stuff. And that's a real shame, 'cause there's usually lots to be positive about.

2. Shippers on both sides need to stop lashing out immediately upon a preceived offense. Take a DEEP breath, go for a walk, stop to smell the roses. Most of the worst around here is very off the cuff, rash and knee-jerk.

3. Shippers on both sides need to stop DELIBERATELY trying to stir up the other side. WAY too much of this continues to happen. Responsible parties know who they are. You might find it fun, but it does no one any good.

4. Shippers on both sides need to realize that whatever happens on the show, not everyone is going to be happy with or like it. Those who are pleased shouldn't flaunt it in others' faces, and those who aren't shouldn't lash out in outrage.

5. Shippers on both sides should NEVER generalize about the other side. The surest way to piss people off is to say: "_____ shippers always..." Not only is it asking for trouble, but you're probably wrong a LOT more often than you realize.

Look guys... shippers all have their own preferences, myself included. But let's all try to remember that we love the show first and foremost, and that it IS just a show. We all have much more in common that the things that would seem to divide us.

I like your list. I think some of your points apply to myself.

I agree. It's just a show, and we're all fans here.

Life's too short to let shipper wars consume you, folks. At the end of your lives, are any of you REALLY going to be lying there thinking: "Damn... if only T'Pol had hooked up with ____, life would have been so much better!" I sure hope not.

As Phlox says: "Optimism!"

I agree. There are a lot of things more important than 'shippy wars. If a thread is positive, I find I like it more and enjoy talking to posters in it. The negative ones, I sometimes can't read through all of the posts, and don't participate.

I think what I'm going to try to do this next season is sit back and enjoy the ride. As a friendly poster pointed out recently (and I paraphrase badly) we don't know what's going to happen in the end, so we might as well sit back and enjoy the moments along the way. That's reminded me of the Endgame quote in my sig.

 

[Sarah Gerber]

How about a neutral zone sort of thread? You could battle it out in there but you try to keep the animosity in there only. Look at it as football, hockey, or something. I've been assumed to be an A/T or T/T shipper before because I didn't like a particular episode so it would be nice if that sort of thing would stop. Not every woman is a shipper.

 

[commodore64]

Posted by emerald_lady:
Cubbie makes excellent points. I'm distressed that my thinking Jolene's comments in her sci-fi interview were silly and dumb are considered tanatamount to calling her "sleazy." Yes, I laughed at her interview about how "offended" she was by what was done to her charcter this season. Jolene agreed to be portrayed as an oversexualized character from day one by portraying a "logical" Vulcan who would not insist on wearing a professional uniform while on duty. Spock didn't wear clothes that showed us his buttcheeks.

I wish he did. I won't scream at you, but I will argue [as in debate] back.

The character wears a tight outfit. Does that make her trash? I don't think so. Having a sexually charged character and a character who engages in sex are really two different things.

I think it was eventual that she became involved with someone or something. I think her objection was how, why and with whom. And, even if Archer had been in Trip's place in Harbinger, I would agree.

I don't see T'Pol as a floozy. I don't see the actress as one.

From my POV, once they all did "Bounty" all bets were off. Bounty was as gross as it gets. Thus, JB's indignation struck me as ridiculous. I'm sorry. Does that mean I think she's not entitled to an opinion because she's playing a sexy part or has posed in sexy pictures? Of course she's entitled. But I'm equally as entitled to think she's being ridiculous.

I would bet money she hated Bounty as much as we did.

Personally, I think we should all agree to stay out of the "shipper" and romance threads we don't agree with for the time being. That seems to be the only solution to ease tensions. I'll agree to stay out.

Hmmmm .... Seems a shame. I like debate in our thread, as long as it's civil. LL did come in -- she was nice.

As far as Archer being a sexual harrasser in ANIS, no he wasn't but the charater admitting to his subordinate that he was hot for her--especially after his Freudian slips about her boobs--was not smart writing on Rick and Brannon's part.

I disagree on the subordinate thing, and you might as well (see below).

Why can't a character have the hots for his subordinate? And, why can't he show the audience [not the other characters] in his dreams?

Part of the point of ANIS is to show Archer's relationship with T'Pol evolving. He's accepted her, likes her and values her opinion [Phlox is right -- more than Trip's on ship matters].

A boss could set himself up for trouble if his employee were overly sensitive.

But, these are characters for one. And two -- what about T'Pol's seduction of Trip? T'Pol is Trip's X/O. He takes orders from her, and not just when she's captain.

When Trip is giving Degra a hard time, she bellows, "Commander!" Why? She's his supervisor. She can tell him to knock it off.

But, the subordinate thing doesn't bother me. In fact, I like that T'Pol reports to Archer, I think it makes the dynamic more interesting. From my perspective, he's going to fight liking her and that is great drama.

So--is disagreeing with the actors considered baiting?

No. I think I didn't make myself clear about *what* bothered me with Blalock dissing.

Okay: I disagree with Blalock's comments and the way she said them.
Not okay: She's a bitch because of what she said.

Okay: I question Bakula's ethics.
Not okay: Bakula is a very sleazy man because he shows his chest for money.

Okay: Trinneer's Floridian accent doesn't sound like it's from Florida.
Not okay: Trinneer is an idiot because he can't do a Florida accent; I'm sure his IQ is like 10 or something.

Disagreeing with an actor is okay. You can call their comments ridiculous. You can say, "Why didn't you say this about Bounty?!" And actually your Bounty comment is good food for thought.

I think calling people a name, personally attacking them or remarking about their IQ seems like bad news. That's my objection.

Both ships have a board, but you guys have an entire board for one character; House of Tucker is everything Trip. Maybe the more heated comments about Blalock can be discussed there?

 

[Kalen Archer]

I think for the most part everyone here is a good person with good intentions, so that's a great starting point.

We're most likely never gonna agree on the shipping stuff, but that's cool. What's not cool is the attacks and snippy comments made to people who support the "other" ship.

Before you post - think. Think, "if someone made a similar comment about my ship/favourite actor/character would this offend me?". Where we are falling down is an occasional lack of consideration for others.

If someone posted, "I find Archer/T'Pol boring as a potential pairing" I wouldn't have a problem with that, it's an opinion and everyone has a right to their opinion. If someone said, "Archer and T'Pol suck as a couple, people who want them together are stupid", then I might stop and glare at the username for a few seconds. You can see the difference.

Everybody, no matter what their shippy preference, should feel welcome in an actor/character's rage thread. Shippers don't own exclusive rights over their "man" (as much as some of us wished we did

).

If everyone is courteous and considerate then the problems should be minimal. If someone does step over the line, rather than sniping back a much more productive approach might be to contact that person privately and discuss it with them. We all have our moments, but most of us are probably very reasonable (and nice) people and will gladly work it out.

 

[Ulva]

Posted by commodore64:
House of Tucker is everything Trip. Maybe the more heated comments about Blalock can be discussed there?

As much as I agree it's a nice thing to have HoT around, not everyone who hangs around in the Trip & T'Pol thread are members of HoT. I know several people here who has been reluctant to join yet another board. And to my knowlidge those people have expressed no desire to discuss JB's comments in interviews.

I must confess I haven't had a look to see if there was an Archer site but if there isn't, why? I think that would be a great idea!

 

[Kalen Archer]

There are a few Scott Bakula sites around.

The SBFF, Scott Bakula online and The Captain's Chair being three that I can think off off the top of my head.