But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situation.
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Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Presumably the universal translator was translating an equivalent Romulan expression?
Presumably the universal translator was translating an equivalent Romulan expression?
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Also, who's to say Romulans don't have dogs? Or are you getting at something else entirely?
Also, who's to say Romulans don't have dogs? Or are you getting at something else entirely?
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Or, alternatively, a necessary evil to allow the story to be told at all. It's been that way since 1963 - why bother complaining about it now?
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Or, alternatively, a necessary evil to allow the story to be told at all. It's been that way since 1963 - why bother complaining about it now?
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Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Hmm. So, question for you:
You're watching a show featuring two Spanish-speaking characters, Anita and Maria. Anita says to Maria, "Tengo veinticinco años."
There are two ways to translate this into English. The first is the literal translation: "I have twenty-five years." The second is the idiomatic translation: "I am twenty-five years old."
You see, in Spanish, you don't refer to yourself as being X number of years old. You refer to yourself, or to someone else, as having X number of years. Age is a possession, not a state of being.
So, which translation would you prefer? The literal, or the idiomatic?
I ask this because it speaks to a larger question:
Do you object to idiomatic translations of foreign phrases that accurately capture the meaning being conveyed and insist on literal translations at all times? Or are idiomatic translations fair?
If the latter, then there's no reason to object to a Romulan using the term "dogged determination." Especially since Romulans and Humans have been in contact with each other for two hundred years as of "In the Pale Moonlight" -- more than enough time for both sides to learn the others' languages and idioms themselves.
Hmm. So, question for you:
You're watching a show featuring two Spanish-speaking characters, Anita and Maria. Anita says to Maria, "Tengo veinticinco años."
There are two ways to translate this into English. The first is the literal translation: "I have twenty-five years." The second is the idiomatic translation: "I am twenty-five years old."
You see, in Spanish, you don't refer to yourself as being X number of years old. You refer to yourself, or to someone else, as having X number of years. Age is a possession, not a state of being.
So, which translation would you prefer? The literal, or the idiomatic?
I ask this because it speaks to a larger question:
Do you object to idiomatic translations of foreign phrases that accurately capture the meaning being conveyed and insist on literal translations at all times? Or are idiomatic translations fair?
If the latter, then there's no reason to object to a Romulan using the term "dogged determination." Especially since Romulans and Humans have been in contact with each other for two hundred years as of "In the Pale Moonlight" -- more than enough time for both sides to learn the others' languages and idioms themselves.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
1. We don't see the sum total of all Human/Romulan interactions. There's no reason to think Humans don't sometimes utilize Romulan idioms in speaking to Romulans.
2. That doesn't address the question of whether or not the Romulans themselves might use Human idioms when speaking to Humans. Or why it's particularly implausible that Senator Vreenak would use the phrase "dogged determination."
1. We don't see the sum total of all Human/Romulan interactions. There's no reason to think Humans don't sometimes utilize Romulan idioms in speaking to Romulans.
2. That doesn't address the question of whether or not the Romulans themselves might use Human idioms when speaking to Humans. Or why it's particularly implausible that Senator Vreenak would use the phrase "dogged determination."
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
You can't rationalize U.T. in any way, but it's a necessary evil.
I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function. This could actually be a very interesting exercise...
You can't rationalize U.T. in any way, but it's a necessary evil.
I defy you to come up with a sensible replacement for it that would allow the show to function. This could actually be a very interesting exercise...
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
This just seems like pointless nitpicking to me. I believe the OP knows full well how difficult it would be for a show like DS9 to operate with a realistic approach to language translation. If it could at all.
This just seems like pointless nitpicking to me. I believe the OP knows full well how difficult it would be for a show like DS9 to operate with a realistic approach to language translation. If it could at all.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
+1 to this.
Keep in mind that if and when we actually do find aliens, we can adjust our approach to this in fiction using real life experience.
+1 to this.
Keep in mind that if and when we actually do find aliens, we can adjust our approach to this in fiction using real life experience.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Subtitles.
Hey, Lost and Heroes used subtitles. Maybe it wouldn't make the audience immediately change the channel?
Subtitles.
Hey, Lost and Heroes used subtitles. Maybe it wouldn't make the audience immediately change the channel?
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
The use of subtitles would be irrelevant. Suppose the Romulan referred to by the OP said
"Hs skaoid Gsoaiha alsiu!"
and a subtitle appeared that said
"But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situation."
The original issue remains. I agree with ElimGarak. There isn't a workable alternative to the UT that would make practical sense.
It is a show produced in the United States. The characters generally speak US English.
Subtitles.
Hey, Lost and Heroes used subtitles. Maybe it wouldn't make the audience immediately change the channel?
The use of subtitles would be irrelevant. Suppose the Romulan referred to by the OP said
"Hs skaoid Gsoaiha alsiu!"
and a subtitle appeared that said
"But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situation."
The original issue remains. I agree with ElimGarak. There isn't a workable alternative to the UT that would make practical sense.
It is a show produced in the United States. The characters generally speak US English.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
How would subtitles help if a human and a Romulan were conversing unless all the characters would be able to speak all languages fluently? Isn't that less believable than a fake-tech solution?
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Gotta go with the others, the language issue/universal translator is just one of those things you have to grin and bear, even with all it's holes and inconsistencies. Because after all, it is just a TV show
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Subtitles wouldn't help, it would just mean that I the viewer know what the Romulan is saying but not that everyone in the room does. I suppose every delegate could have an actual translator with them at all times. Imagine listening to one of Sisko's impassioned rants but then having to wait for some guy to translate it into Romulan/Klingon/Bajoran/Whatever so the other person in the room can know they just got smacked down.
Gotta go with the others, the language issue/universal translator is just one of those things you have to grin and bear, even with all it's holes and inconsistencies. Because after all, it is just a TV show
.Subtitles wouldn't help, it would just mean that I the viewer know what the Romulan is saying but not that everyone in the room does. I suppose every delegate could have an actual translator with them at all times. Imagine listening to one of Sisko's impassioned rants but then having to wait for some guy to translate it into Romulan/Klingon/Bajoran/Whatever so the other person in the room can know they just got smacked down.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
The UT is one of those plot devices we have to put up with. If it was the UT we were hearing, it is possible that we were hearing the senator speak English and the Senator knew enough to use it correctly.
The UT is one of those plot devices we have to put up with. If it was the UT we were hearing, it is possible that we were hearing the senator speak English and the Senator knew enough to use it correctly.
Re: But dogged determination won't change the reality of your situatio
Isn't it likely that when humans went off into space that dogs not only went with them but dog breeding went as well. I could easily see a creature that has multiple purposes (guard, hunting, pest control) but is also loving and loyal becoming popular with other humanoid species.
Beyond the conventional usages it's likely that dog is a popular food source on other worlds. Hey, if they eat dogs in Asia isn't it likely other species would eat them as well?
Isn't it likely that when humans went off into space that dogs not only went with them but dog breeding went as well. I could easily see a creature that has multiple purposes (guard, hunting, pest control) but is also loving and loyal becoming popular with other humanoid species.
Beyond the conventional usages it's likely that dog is a popular food source on other worlds. Hey, if they eat dogs in Asia isn't it likely other species would eat them as well?
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