Building the Mighty Mushroom - Spacedock

[Galileo7]

...
One thing I've wondered is if the Galaxy class could fit in TSFS Spacedock if the door were bigger rather than scaling up the entire structure.

Agree, since this Spacedock is huge, I just thought they enlarged the size of the Spacedock spacedoors to allow the larger classes of starships(Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign) inside. All of the NG Starbases that are the same design had the larger spacedoors, these starbases were built between 2285(the era of TOS Movies) to 2363 the era of NG, seventy plus years.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Earth_Spacedock
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starbase_74
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starbase_133

 

[SchwEnt]

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[Galileo7]

Eh, TNG only made it worse.

Bad enough we're trying to explain how and why and how long such a singular massive 'shroom could possibly exist in TSFS.

By TNG, these things were popping up all over as run-of-time Starbase XXX here and there.

Oh come on!!! How many of these things could there possibly be?!

I read somewhere sixteen including Earth's Spacedock.
We saw the NG ones:
Starbase 74 "11001001"
Starbase 84 "Phantasms"
Starbase 133 "Remember Me"
Starbase Lya Station Alpha "Ensign Ro"

 

[Patrickivan]

Not to be a complete prick here, but humans employ every bit of technology available to make things bigger and better. Sometimes just for the sake of it.

The largest ship in the world is the Knock Nevis at 458 meters (almost half a kilometer!) long according to "largestshipsintheworld.com". That's 200 meters longer then the aircraft carrier Enterprise.

The largest dump truck is 24 feet high! According to "dieslepowermagazine".

The tallest building is the Burj Khalifa in Dubai at 828 wopping meters high! According the about.com/architecture.

Things aren't getting smaller either. There are planned larger ships, buildings, planes, constructing equipment.

A giant starbase that can house starships for whatever myriad of reasons = very plausible in the real future, let alone almost 300 years from now in a very fantastic fictional future. By Star Trek's standards, there is nothing to suggest it isn't reasonable or possible.

 

[Santaman]

There's something deeply archaic about that mushroom station: the concept of an enclosed volume for holding starships, for one.

Perhaps the station was built in 2170 or so, back when the volume could enclose basically the entire Starfleet?

Timo Saloniemi

I think Space Dock makes perfect sense, I see it as an airport, everyone and everything that needs to go to the planet surface needs to go through there so you don't have all kinds of people just landing their shuttles/starships/beaming down stuff all over the planet, kinda bad for security.

I also assume that is the reason why its so enormous, Earth is an important planet with a lot of trafic, as for building time, I guess 10 years would be enough.

 

[JarodRussell]

Only the upper part is a dock, the rest is a space station used for whatever. Enclosing the thing makes sense. Protection from radiation, enemy weapons fire, etc...

 

[Wingsley]

As I suggested earlier, maybe the orbital office complex (TMP1) was the first phase of construction, which eventually grew into Mushroom station over several years. (TMP3)

Depending on when you plot the dates for each movie (I have no problem making TMP1 2279, and TMP2-4 2286), It could have taken 5-7 years to build/evolve.

Since we never seen the (relatively smaller) orbiting office complex after we start seeing the Mushroom, it seems reasonable to me that the complex became the Mushroom.

 

[Galileo7]

It is Star Trek canon that TMP is set in 2271, WOK and SFS are set in 2285 , right ?

 

[SicOne]

Here is the entry for SpaceDock from the "Starship Spotter" book, which is generally a well-informed work. Take from it what you will.

"Originally designed to support Starfleet operations in the Sol Sector of space, SpaceDock is a huge multipurpose facility serving in the roles of forward base, industrial center, operations hub, shipyard, and research facility. More protected than open fleetyards, SpaceDock also serves as a starship construction facility as well as a key administrative nexus for Starfleet Command. The facility supports a large operation specialist base and frequently is the first contact non-allied worlds have with the Federation.

A city in space, SpaceDock can support up to eight Galaxy-class vessels and up to twenty-four smaller ships. Initially designed for the smaller starships of the 23rd century, two of the station's spacedoors were enlarged in the mid-24th century to accomodate the Galaxy-class starships. The giant sensor towers and the forest of antennae allow the facility to scan for light-years around the area of the station. Non-Starfleet endeavors are welcome at SpaceDock, and retail and office space along with cargo holds are available. Starfleet provides transporter service and trade arbitration, if necessary. Many spacedocks also have a significant tourist trade, by virtue of its role as gateway to the sector it serves. Advanced medical and research facilities are found on many SpaceDocks. The only limit to a SpaceDock is the imagination of its commander.

The SpaceDock was first conceived during conflicts with the Klingon Empire. By the end of 2259, the facility had been approved. However, design profiles were stalled for years as system upgrades were added. It was a long, slow process, as this was the largest contained spaceborne facility Starfleet had ever attempted to build. The first SpaceDock was completed in 2276 in the Sol Sector. The SpaceDock design worked so well that it became the standard within Starfleet. Although SpaceDock itself was not conceived as a starbase, it became one. Several starbases, in fact, were commissioned as an enlarged version of the SpaceDock design. By the late 24th century, the mushroom shape of SpaceDock had become one of the most recognizable symbols of Starfleet.

Here are the specification of SpaceDock, circa 2290...6,950 meters tall x 4,600 meters diameter. 236,642,306 tons. 76,625 crew (including civilians). 80 RIM-12C independent twin-mount phaser emplacements (40 banks of 2 phasers each). 285 work bees, 100 shuttles, and 50 Danube-class runabouts.

Hope this helps with the discussion.

 

[Galileo7]

Here is the entry for SpaceDock from the "Starship Spotter" book, which is generally a well-informed work. Take from it what you will.

"Originally designed to support Starfleet operations in the Sol Sector of space, SpaceDock is a huge multipurpose facility serving in the roles of forward base, industrial center, operations hub, shipyard, and research facility. More protected than open fleetyards, SpaceDock also serves as a starship construction facility as well as a key administrative nexus for Starfleet Command. The facility supports a large operation specialist base and frequently is the first contact non-allied worlds have with the Federation.

A city in space, SpaceDock can support up to eight Galaxy-class vessels and up to twenty-four smaller ships. Initially designed for the smaller starships of the 23rd century, two of the station's spacedoors were enlarged in the mid-24th century to accomodate the Galaxy-class starships. The giant sensor towers and the forest of antennae allow the facility to scan for light-years around the area of the station. Non-Starfleet endeavors are welcome at SpaceDock, and retail and office space along with cargo holds are available. Starfleet provides transporter service and trade arbitration, if necessary. Many spacedocks also have a significant tourist trade, by virtue of its role as gateway to the sector it serves. Advanced medical and research facilities are found on many SpaceDocks. The only limit to a SpaceDock is the imagination of its commander.

The SpaceDock was first conceived during conflicts with the Klingon Empire. By the end of 2259, the facility had been approved. However, design profiles were stalled for years as system upgrades were added. It was a long, slow process, as this was the largest contained spaceborne facility Starfleet had ever attempted to build. The first SpaceDock was completed in 2276 in the Sol Sector. The SpaceDock design worked so well that it became the standard within Starfleet. Although SpaceDock itself was not conceived as a starbase, it became one. Several starbases, in fact, were commissioned as an enlarged version of the SpaceDock design. By the late 24th century, the mushroom shape of SpaceDock had become one of the most recognizable symbols of Starfleet.

Here are the specification of SpaceDock, circa 2290...6,950 meters tall x 4,600 meters diameter. 236,642,306 tons. 76,625 crew (including civilians). 80 RIM-12C independent twin-mount phaser emplacements (40 banks of 2 phasers each). 285 work bees, 100 shuttles, and 50 Danube-class runabouts.

Hope this helps with the discussion.

Thank you, I have that book somewhere too. It is a official Star Trek canon book. Spacedock was completed 2276 after TMP 2271 and before WOK 2285.

 

[Albertese]

It is Star Trek canon that TMP is set in 2271, WOK and SFS are set in 2285 , right ?

Technically canon encompasses strictly material seen on-screen. It does not include any printed material, regardless of authorship or official standing.

The only dates we ever have on-screen total to no more than two. An episode of Voyager states explicitly that Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270. And in TMP3, Kirk reads a vintage date of 2283 on the bottle of Romulan Ale that McCoy brought to celebrate Kirk's birthday with. So, since "it takes the stuff a while to ferment," we can assume that that movie takes place sometime after 2283.

There are other official dates provided thoughout Mike Okuda's Star Trek Chronology but it must be noted that, while official, any numbers not mentioned on-screen are speculative and somewhat fluid. For example: the first edition of the Chronology conjectured a date for Chochrane's first flight to have been in 2061, which jived with what had been on-screen to the time of publishing the book, and was considered official, but was later contradicted by the movie First Contact which established it as having been 2063. So 2063 then became canon.

So to answer your question, 2271 and 2285 are not canon, though they may well be official.

--Alex

 

[Galileo7]

It is Star Trek canon that TMP is set in 2271, WOK and SFS are set in 2285 , right ?

Technically canon encompasses strictly material seen on-screen. It does not include any printed material, regardless of authorship or official standing.

The only dates we ever have on-screen total to no more than two. An episode of Voyager states explicitly that Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270. And in TMP3, Kirk reads a vintage date of 2283 on the bottle of Romulan Ale that McCoy brought to celebrate Kirk's birthday with. So, since "it takes the stuff a while to ferment," we can assume that that movie takes place sometime after 2283.

There are other official dates provided thoughout Mike Okuda's Star Trek Chronology but it must be noted that, while official, any numbers not mentioned on-screen are speculative and somewhat fluid. For example: the first edition of the Chronology conjectured a date for Chochrane's first flight to have been in 2061, which jived with what had been on-screen to the time of publishing the book, and was considered official, but was later contradicted by the movie First Contact which established it as having been 2063. So 2063 then became canon.

So to answer your question, 2271 and 2285 are not canon, though they may well be official.

--Alex

Canon is anything on screen in TOS, TAS, NG, DS9, VOY, ENT and MOVIES.

I remember the VOY episode "Q2" stating 2270 ending Kirk's five year mission. So eighteen months to refit 1701, however this includes that during that same period Kirk's at Starfleet Operations for two and half years as stated in TMP. This on screen canon might set TMP in 2273 at the latest.

 

[Wingsley]

There is nothing in Kirk's "two and a half years" remark to rule out that he could have commanded another ship, task force, or space station as a flag officer after he relinquished command of the Starship Enterprise at the end of his famous five-year mission but before he became Chief of Starfleet Operations.

So it could have gone like this:

(NOTE: I have based some of my conjecture on the non-cannon novels "The Prometheus Design" by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Colbreath, and "My Enemy, My Ally" by Diane Duane.)

2261: Design begins on the new Starbase One, also known as Spacedock City Earth.

2265: Kirk assumes permanent command of the Enterprise, after temporarily taking over from Fleet Captain Pike.

2266: Design is complete on Phase One of the huge new Spacedock City, the first portion being the Orbital Office Complex. Component fabrication and construction of the new facility begins.

2268: The Constitution-class Federation Starship U.S.S. Tzaled ("Intrepid"), manned by Vulcans, is destroyed near Gamma 7A.

2269: Design and testing begins on components of the new fourth-power linear warp drive. A prototype refit Constitution-class starship fitted with a crude prototype linear warp drive, U.S.S. Tzaled-A, is deployed by the Vulcans. (Diane Duane's "My Enemy, My Ally")

2270: The Enterprise ends its famous five-year mission, and Captain Kirk is promoted to flag rank. Kirk assumes a new deep space command.

2273: Linear warp drive is certified as stable and standardized as a star-drive technology to replace third-power circumferential warp drive. Design begins on new-generation linear-warp-driven starships. A new generation of the Constitution-class, called the Tzlaed-A-class, will be based on the Vulcan "Intrepid" prototype. The new Miranda-class starships also begin design phase.

2276: Kirk is promoted to Chief of Starfleet Operations, ending his six-year deep space assignment. The first phase of Spacedock City, the Orbital Office Complex (the "inner base of the Mushroom") is complete. Testing begins.

2278: The Orbital Office Complex testing complete, the first phase of Spacedock City construction is now made fully operational. Design begins for additional sections of the "Mushroom".

2279: Admiral Kirk assumes command of the newly refit Enterprise (which uses the new linear warp drive), after two-and-a-half years in Operations. Fabrication begins on Phase Two of Spacedock City.

2280: Construction begins on Phase Two of Spacedock City. Construction and mass refits begin on Constitution (Tzaled-A) and Miranda-class starships. Fleet Admiral Savaj of Vulcan reveals "The Prometheus Design" when Spock temporarily assumes command of the Enterprise.

2282: As construction of Phase Two is complete, testing begins. Design also begins on Phase Three.

2283: Phase Two of Spacedock City is made fully operational. Construction of Phase Three begins. Design of Phase Four, the final phase, begins.

2284: Construction of Phase Three of Spacedock City is complete. Testing begins. Construction of Phase Four begins. After completing its first five-year-mission since being refit, the Starship Enterprise is re-assigned to Starfleet Academy as a cadet training vessel under the command of Captain Spock.

2285: Construction of Phase Four of Spacedock City is complete. Testing begins.

2286: Spacedock City is certified complete, and is formally dedicated Starbase One. The Starships Reliant and Enterprise are destroyed in the Mutara Sector. The Whalesong Probe attacks Earth. Testing begins on the new Excelsior-class starship.

 

[kkozoriz1]

It is Star Trek canon that TMP is set in 2271, WOK and SFS are set in 2285 , right ?

Technically canon encompasses strictly material seen on-screen. It does not include any printed material, regardless of authorship or official standing.

The only dates we ever have on-screen total to no more than two. An episode of Voyager states explicitly that Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270. And in TMP3, Kirk reads a vintage date of 2283 on the bottle of Romulan Ale that McCoy brought to celebrate Kirk's birthday with. So, since "it takes the stuff a while to ferment," we can assume that that movie takes place sometime after 2283.

There are other official dates provided thoughout Mike Okuda's Star Trek Chronology but it must be noted that, while official, any numbers not mentioned on-screen are speculative and somewhat fluid. For example: the first edition of the Chronology conjectured a date for Chochrane's first flight to have been in 2061, which jived with what had been on-screen to the time of publishing the book, and was considered official, but was later contradicted by the movie First Contact which established it as having been 2063. So 2063 then became canon.

So to answer your question, 2271 and 2285 are not canon, though they may well be official.

--Alex

In The Neutral Zone Data states the year as 2364.

 

[STR]

I never had a problem with Spacedock as such. Why would it be any more unrealistic and unlikely than, say, skyscrapers here on Earth? Skyscrapers don't make an ounce of engineering sense - they are merely an artifact of the perverse economy we run, out of habit. Plus they are pretty damn impressive. Both reasons might be equally valid for constructing giant space cities right next to Earth.

I don't really see why Spacedock couldn't be built overnight, either. It's no bigger than a moderately sized city; it just happens to be founded on a particularly difficult type of soil, namely orbital vacuum. The substance making up its "foundation" or outer shell might be in situ preparable, like concrete. Once that was done, construction of the innards could proceed relatively "wildly" in terms of schedule and structure.

Moving the materials to the Spacedock construction site might in fact be easier than moving comparable materials to any terrestrial construction site. Transporters would take care of direct delivery of that concrete analogy, eliminating the need for "cement trucks" in between; the performance of the teleportation technology might be significantly boosted when one can afford an error rate of 20%, and not insist on 0.000000000000000012%.

As for not seeing the station before, well, we never saw Earth before. Not until ST:TMP at least. And in that movie (and in ST2) we only visited a single specific location, a military dockyard at relatively low orbit; there's no particular reason we should have noticed a star that was slightly brighter than others and close to the horizon of Earth.

Really, I'd expect Earth's vicinity to be littered with industrial installations far, far larger than Spacedock or the Utopia Planitia docks of "Relativity". Humans like to think big, and even if they still build midget starships in the 24th century, why, all the more reason for them to vent their megalomania in some other direction...

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think it's the construction materials that would be the issue, but the engineering of the whole thing that would take a long while. I'd see that taking a decade in and of itself, with maybe 5-10 year construction and fitting out period.

As for the question of "Why?" Well...it's clearly because there is enough Starfleet traffic in earth orbit to justify something on that scale. You don't just build something THAT big for the hell of it. "The hell of it" ends several orders of magnitude smaller than that. Generally you do it because anything smaller won't do the job for you.

Now, the shape of spacedock tells you that the dock is not the only thing that the base is used for. It's too big for just that, since 60% of the bulk is in the "shaft" of the mushroom, while the "cap" is largely empty. The rest of it may store ordnance and supplies, repair crews, or a really large and powerful weapon system supplied by a massive energy source. It may be set up to house a hundred thousand marines in a time of war, or a million refugees in case of disaster.

Of course, there might just be a series of smaller dock areas throughout the station, with the largest just used for mooring capital ships, meaning the whole thing is mostly empty.

As for why they have an internal bay for ships, that's a better question. The answer would have to lie in something we've never seen on screen. Perhaps they build and test classified projects inside. Perhaps they can pressurize either the whole or part of the dock, or enable gravity. Perhaps shields work better when you don't have little ships hanging off the side of things.

I would say, that given that ST-Universe mirrors a future projection of our own culture, that there would have to be multiple, significantly larger complexes built for servicing civilian traffic coming to and from Earth. THAT would be cool to see.

 

[Timo]

Given how the station operated in ST3, with just one known Starfleet type present and another arriving (and a third ship, possibly non-Starfleet, peeking from around the corner), we might well speculate that "Spacedock Earth" is a civilian facility and largely handles incoming and outgoing passengers and cargo of civilian nature; Starfleet just happens to have a pier or two there as well, and may be the organization in charge of STC (because Starfleet seems to be doing everything in the UFP anyway).

In ST4, a national state of emergency would see the Spacedock briefly appropriated for military use, housing wounded Starfleet ships.

If Starfleet piers and indeed the rest of the starship-handling business are mere afterthoughts on this space city, I wouldn't put it past Earth to build this thing "for the heck of it". The tallest buildings on Earth don't serve a function: they are mere landmarks, with offices and apartments installed inside to retroactively justify the construction expenses. Spacedock could simply be a tall building, with a lavishly equipped helipad on top for extra decor.

Do we have any indication that Spacedock would or could handle starship construction or repair? It briefly held the wounded E-nil-refit, but didn't do anything to her that we'd know of. It also held the Excelsior before her trials, but again didn't seem to do anything to her. No activity was seen around the ships at the end of ST4, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

TMP could have started as late or later than 2278 for another reason (other than novels): The fictional Voyager VI was launched "more than 300 years ago" according to Decker and we know that the real Voyager II was launched in 1977. If TMP kept to a similar launch timeframe then Voyager VI would've launched after 1977. Add 300 years and you get 2277 as a starting point.

I do dig the "Mighty Mushroom" name

 

[Albertese]

Canon is anything on screen in TOS, TAS, NG, DS9, VOY, ENT and MOVIES.

I remember the VOY episode "Q2" stating 2270 ending Kirk's five year mission. So eighteen months to refit 1701, however this includes that during that same period Kirk's at Starfleet Operations for two and half years as stated in TMP. This on screen canon might set TMP in 2273 at the latest.

Actually it means that TMP would be set in 2273 at the earliest. There could be intervening events we never saw or heard of. Which would make sense given that all the main characters are significantly more than three years older.

In The Neutral Zone Data states the year as 2364.

Quite true. I only left it out seeing as how we're talking about the timeline of Spacedock, so it's not really relevant to the thread. (Interestingly in "Encounter at Farpoint" Data mentions his academy graduation year "class of '74" (IIRC... I'm sure someone will speak up if I'm misremembering). So either he was wrong about the 2370's or wrong about the 2360's. It's up to you.)

--Alex

 

[Galileo7]

Canon is anything on screen in TOS, TAS, NG, DS9, VOY, ENT and MOVIES.

I remember the VOY episode "Q2" stating 2270 ending Kirk's five year mission. So eighteen months to refit 1701, however this includes that during that same period Kirk's at Starfleet Operations for two and half years as stated in TMP. This on screen canon might set TMP in 2273 at the latest.

Actually it means that TMP would be set in 2273 at the earliest. There could be intervening events we never saw or heard of. Which would make sense given that all the main characters are significantly more than three years older.

Well, whenever someone finds out what year exactly TMP is set that is on screen canon please let us all know so we can finally resolve this question.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well, whenever someone finds out what year exactly TMP is set that is on screen canon please let us all know so we can finally resolve this question.

I don't think you'll ever get an exact canon date. Even if you use Voyager's "Q2" episode's 2270 as the end of Kirk's 5 year mission it is only consistent (or verifiable) within the Voyager universe. Voyager's "Flashback" episode swapped out human Tim Russ for Vulcan Tim Russ and changed the timespan of the Praxis explosion till Kirk and McCoy's arrest from the movie's 2 months to the episode's 2 days. The only definite is that TWOK says it took place in "the 23rd century" and the Romulan Ale was made in the year 2283 or on stardate 2283 (take your pick )