Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[tomalak301]

Actually, I don't think it works all that well as "an episode of television." While it stands on its own as a work of art, it fails several storytelling conventions (mostly structural). It really fits the truest definition of 'slice-of-life' instead of a fully developed narrative. So, while I believe it's worth all the praise it gets speaking strictly as a piece of performance art, I certainly don't think it's the best episode of the series. Heck, I don't even think it's the best episode of the season.

I was just thinking about this and the whole thing about moving on. The Body was such an “outer body” (no pun intended) experience that I actually had to think about what season 5 was actually about again. In a way I’m hoping the next episode previously on is “Last Time on Buffy before we ripped your heart out” or something. In terms of its placement in the season, it was great but in terms of the overall arc, how can any episode live up to what we just got.

That’s not to criticize the episode at all though. It’s just the season must go on and considering all the emotions of this episode, what was the season about again?

 

[CorporalClegg]

Cheese. Duh.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I see season 5 as being about Buffy’s need and difficulty to open up and connect emotionally and stay grounded in humanity.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Remember when Hillary said something about how we're all two people or something (I don't remember the exact quote.) and people ridiculed her for it. Well, that's the underpinning idea of the whole franchise. Just look at the two principal leads. Angel has two separate and distinct personalities. And he literally has two faces. (As does Doyle.) Buffy also consists of two distinct individuals, at least thematically: Buffy Summers and The Slayer. And you can see this idea repeated over and over throughout the franchise. Giles is Rupert and Ripper. Oz is Daniel Osborne and the wolf. Anya and Anyanka. Doyle, like Angel, also literally has two faces. "The Host" has two names. There's the person who's split between their "old crew" and their "new crew." And there are plenty of others. And of course, we now have the more symbolic examples in Buffy/Dawn and Glory/Ben. Or even Xander literally being split in two.

But what all these "pairings" represent is really just a nurture vs. nature thing.

Whedon has said many times that he's an existential absurdist - which is a whole nother lengthy conversation. His two biggest influences with this are Camus and Sartre. Angel can be seen reading both throughout the franchise. And I believe Ye Who Likes Tacos mentions one at some point. Basically what this means is the exploration of one's impact on the universe through choice. There's always a choice. That's a huge oversimplification - even within its context of the franchise - but it goes we beyond the scope of this thread. If you want more, listen to some Rush songs. (Peart is also an existential absurdist.)

What this all means is, how we affect the universe (Or really our most immediate 'universe', our social structure.) comes down to how we interact with it back to the nature v. nurture. Do we choose to something because our instincts told us to or because of how we are raised?

And Buffy is now at a point where her nature as almost completely taken over, since interning with the First Slayer. This is the part of her that is failing to connect emotionally and - since it's literally rooted in non-human sources - the part that's disconnecting her from her humanity. And now, the person most responsible for her nurture is gone.

 

[tomalak301]

Forever

It's a hard task following up an episode like The Body. The season has to go on, but when do we move on from this traumatic event to the next traumatic event. I applaud this episode for not treating things as business as usual, but rather making the transition slow. This felt like a "let me down gently" episode. What I mean by that is there's still the issue of Joyce's death, but we are starting to move towards the acceptance phase with scenes with Ben, Glory and her minions, and even Spike getting involved. I loved the ending with Buffy and Dawn just letting it all out. Dawn was desperate to get her mother back, while Buffy had all this on her shoulders because she was even having a hard time accepting what happened. To meet in the middle and share the emotional weight was probably a sign that yeah things are going to move on. Like Buffy tells Angel, she doesn't know what tomorrow will bring, but tomorrow will be here.

Some other thoughts on this episode:

1. There was confirmation that Glory and Ben are Brother and Sister. Now about the whole Ben shapeshifts into Glory thing. Apparently Glory doesn't know everything Ben is thinking, yet Ben becomes her? I'm a little confused how that works, but I'm sure the final 5 episodes will say something about that.

2. Joel Grey makes an appearance as The Doc. I remember years ago on this board there was a thread of appreciation for his Role in the Voyager episode Resistance. In fact, the reason people love that episode is because of that character, and to be honest, I haven't seen Grey in anything else. In this episode he almost plays the same character...almost.

 

[JD]

It's been a while, so my memory isn't real clear. What exactly do they say about Ben and Glory?

 

[tomalak301]

It's been a while, so my memory isn't real clear. What exactly do they say about Ben and Glory?

When Ben is talking to Jinx (I think that's his name, the main minion guy) near the hospital, he calls Glory Sister.

 

[JD]

OK. I couldn't remember if they were ever specifically referred to as siblings.
This thread has inspired me to do a rewatch of both series on Hulu once I get through some of the other stuff I've been watching.

 

[tomalak301]

OK. I couldn't remember if they were ever specifically referred to as siblings.
This thread has inspired me to do a rewatch of both series on Hulu once I get through some of the other stuff I've been watching.

Yeah I’m going to have a backloads after I get done with Buffy and Angel. Two final seasons of shows on Netflix and stranger things will probably be stuff I watch in the fall, time permitting.

 

[gblews]

At the end of the day, OMWF is just a musical.

Boy, do I disagree with this, but we'll get the chance to discuss, when the episode comes up.

When you get right down to it, the title is probably the worst thing about the show. It's not bad per se, but it completely misrepresents what it's all about. It's sorta like NES box art.

Though I suppose some might assume Angel aired Sunday evenings on CBS.

I think people missed the irony in the title. I mean Buffy was a vampire slayer, but the show's many dark and complex psychological themes ran counter to the "lightness" of the title. It also didn't help that there had been that not very well received movie of the same name.

I thought it was Sopranos people mostly credit for that. The Body is a great episode but I'm not sure non-genre fans were paying enough attention at the time.

I would agree. I think the Sopranos, which started in 1999 or a bit earlier, is considered the vanguard of television as art. The concept, a mob show focused entirely on the mobsters and their "civilian" lives, with tragedy, cruelty, comedy, wrapped up in high drama, with just a dollop of violence, had never been seen on teleision before.

 

[tomalak301]

Intervention

This was one of the funnier episodes of Buffy I've seen. It actually makes the other Robot episode better, considering I enjoyed this payoff quite a bit. Anya had some hysterical lines, and just the craziness of the Buffy robot having sex with Spike and the reaction from the Scoobie gang was just hilarious. I still think Spike is a stalker creep, but it's hard to not like him, as dirty as that sounds.

This episode brought more ominousness to the forefront too, with the vision of the first slayer saying "Death is your Gift". They really are setting up the finale here.

 

[tomalak301]

Tough Love

Man Glory is a bitch. She did bring out Willow's darker side though, which was kinda awesome, especially the thing with the Knives. I feel so bad for Tara, but this episode is about parenting responsibility and the playing field is now even with Buffy/Dawn and Willow/Tara. As for the Buffy/Dawn storyline, Buffy really is growing up fast since the death of Joyce. She has to, but I can't imagine what it's like to have all these responsibilities and kind of being forced into it.

Right now it feels like these episodes are just progressing the arc towards the finale. They might start blurring together, but this one was another great episode. Really excited for the final 3.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Add all the Dawn responsibility to being the Slayer...

To me, Intervention is a nice comedy episode in amongst the heaviness of losing Joyce.

 

[tomalak301]

Season 5 is turning into movie quality I might just finish it tonight. Spiral is exposition done really really well. This episode revealed everything, and yes I get the Ben/Glory joke now which happens at the beginning of the penultimate episode.

 

[tafkats]

First time I Saw IWMTLH, I was like tomalak in that I think I knew Joyce was supposed to die but didn’t know when or how. When she made it through the brain tumor, I assumed I’d gotten the spoiler wrong. And BAM, at the end of one of show’s most innocuous episodes, in the most matter of fact way, it happens.

It was sort of similar for me. Coming into it knowing that she would die, when she collapsed in "Out of My Mind" I thought that was it ... but then, when she seemed to be recovering, it left my mind until the "BAM!" moment.

Although it clearly wasn't intended that way at first, it was a little bit of the Spock in TWOK effect.

Intervention

This was one of the funnier episodes of Buffy I've seen...

"The who whatting how with huh?" is definitely one of those classic Buffy lines.

Second best line of the episode: "I am not having sex with Spike! ... But I'm starting to think that you might be."

And the line "I can beat up the demons until the cows come home, and then I can beat up the cows" calls back to what I mentioned earlier, w.r.t. Buffy's gradual hardening and isolation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The missus and I are in season 7, and a question came up, about a character that's not in the show yet, but someone said something about something...

Spoiler

After Ashanti, the pop idol, tried to bleed Xander, Xander decides to go gay, which I supposed used to be funny, but then Dawn says that Clem says liked Xander...

I'm now 90 percent sure that Clem is gay, how about you?

 

[tomalak301]

Spiral, The Weight of the World, The Gift

I finished Season 5 tonight, and HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They not only stuck the landing, they perfected the landing.

Ok, it took me a few minutes to come up with that one and it probably doesn't work, but that was a hell of a season of television. This was one of those seasons where I kept watching because I couldn't stop, things were coming to the forefront and I just wanted to see what happened next. From the chase in the Winnebego, to Willow going through Buffy's mind, and then that ending where Buffy understands the meaning of "Death is your gift".

This is how you do a 22 episode story arc. You build things, you pay off things, and then you make the finale as epic as you can because all the questions have been answered and you are just holding on for the ride. When I said this season was ominous, everything was leading to this. Buffy's vision, Joyce's brain tumor, how the weight of the world was literally on her shoulders and she almost shut down. What was one of the quotes the monks gave, The Slayer will protect the key with her life? All the hints were there and the way it all came together honestly was a masterstroke. And then you have the emotions of Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn, being her protector at all costs, and quite frankly that might be one of the best seasons of any show I have ever seen.

I'm not going to even give a top 5. Basically every episode with the exception of 1 was great, and even that 1 (The robot episode) was pivitol in the finale. I know there is a season 6 coming, so I'm guessing Willow and Tara will actually try to do a resurrection spell (Hinted at in the first episode I watched tonight, another set up for future events) but the way Season 5 went down, all I can really say is wow.

I do have 3 questions and a thought though.

1) Did Glory wipe all all the Knights? I remember the one Knight guy said that they would still be coming, by the thousands even, yet they were wiped out and they didn't still come.

2) When Willow did her spell to cure Tara, did she cure everyone who was in the mental ward. I thought there was going to be a bigger connection there, and the show was shaping that up but it felt like it was dropped because there was just so much going on in the finale.

3) Who was Spike talking to when the woman told him to go up and get Dawn? I guess the nice thing about being a Vampire is you don't know other than a stake through the heart. I really hope I don't need to go over to Angel to get an answer to that, considering this was Buffy's story arc.

4) You know it takes a man to admit when he's a Monster. That scene with Spike pretty much apologizing the Buffy kind of redeemed him a little. He was a stalker and that's a bad thing, but he did a lot of good things this season too. I have actually liked his transformation this season, despite what I read at the very beginning of this thread. It's been gradual, but it's been character development.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Season 5 was actually written this way as a finale. The show was canceled by the network it was on, and no one was sure if they could get anyone else to pick it up or not. There is a way out, obviously, because the show did get picked up by a different network, but somewhere in an alternate universe that was the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And, honestly, I enjoy the ultimate finale a lot, too, but what a worthy end it would've been.

 

[tomalak301]

Season 5 was actually written this way as a finale. The show was canceled by the network it was on, and no one was sure if they could get anyone else to pick it up or not. There is a way out, obviously, because the show did get picked up by a different network, but somewhere in an alternate universe that was the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And, honestly, I enjoy the ultimate finale a lot, too, but what a worthy end it would've been.

I can see that. For one, the previously on was basically a scene from every episode up to this point, and then the final scene with the gravestone was basically a Slayers destiny, according to Spike in his origin episode. It was a sad way to go out, but Season 5 was incredibly intense.

 

[theenglish]

"She saved the world...a lot."