Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[tomalak301]

But I've noticed glory in Faith, because Eliza is gloriously beautiful.

Yes she is, and she played the villain role quite well. Going through Buffy and understanding the whole crossover thing, I think the thing I'm most looking forward to when it comes to watching Angel is watching Faith's character develop.

 

[USS Firefly]

Yes she is, and she played the villain role quite well. Going through Buffy and understanding the whole crossover thing, I think the thing I'm most looking forward to when it comes to watching Angel is watching Faith's character develop.

Faith is not a villain because she is beautiful. Didn't Giles once said that villains are ugly?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don’t see any of Faith in Glory either. Just super-strong psychopath version of Cordy.

 

[tomalak301]

Faith is not a villain because she is beautiful. Didn't Giles once said that villains are ugly?

I don't think I said that. I said Eliza is beautiful, and she played the villain part well. I'm looking forward to what Angel (The series) does with her.

 

[USS Firefly]

I don't think I said that. I said Eliza is beautiful, and she played the villain part well. I'm looking forward to what Angel (The series) does with her.

I am sorry, I must have misread your post

 

[PsychoPere]

Fool for Love

This is another Buffy episode that has a companion piece in Angel, though I'm going to refrain from saying anything about it. Not even gonna tell you the title.

When you get to Angel, it'll be obvious anyhow.

 

[CorporalClegg]

All of Glory's dialog can be broken down into two categories: things Cordelia would most likely say and things Faith would most likely say. They're not meant to be exact because Glory's "personalities" are supposed to be pastiches or caricatures - a means to a thematic end. (Just like Buffy's personality isn't a literal combination of Cordelia, Faith, and Dawn.) But there are definitely two distinct voices in her dialog.

One thing to try is to take chunks of her dialog and, in your mind's ear, replace Kramer with Carpenter and Dushku. There are parts that will sound more "right" with the former and parts that will sound more "right" with the latter.

NPLH is as good a place as any to start. The gag about the duct tape gag or the joke about using the monk's head as a bowling ball is very Faithish. Even the joke about splitting Buffy like a worm. Cordy actually fought a dude who split into a bunch of different worms and was horrified by it. She'd never make a joke about it. But Faith totally would.

And I mean, binding and gagging a guy to a chair to torture him for a while and then straddling him while she mockingly taunts him doesn't seem like something Cordy would ever do.

And not to get ahead of ourselves, but there's a scene in "Checkpoint" where they could easily replace Kramer with Dushku and - without any context - no one would be the wiser.

And there's definitely a passive element to the "Cordy" persona and an aggressive element to the "Faith" one. But this goes back to how Cordelia is like her Id and Faith is like her ego. The Id is the part that says "I want! I want! I want!' And Glory is pretty much all want. The ego is the part that says - in Faith's own words - "Want. Take. Have." It's the doer. It's the part of her that, when trying to find a place or meaning to her life the key to her existence, seeks the guidance of a higher power big evil snake.

 

[tomalak301]

All of Glory's dialog can be broken down into two categories: things Cordelia would most likely say and things Faith would most likely say. They're not meant to be exact because Glory's "personalities" are supposed to be pastiches or caricatures - a means to a thematic end. (Just like Buffy's personality isn't a literal combination of Cordelia, Faith, and Dawn.) But there are definitely two distinct voices in her dialog.

One thing to try is to take chunks of her dialog and, in your mind's ear, replace Kramer with Carpenter and Dushku. There are parts that will sound more "right" with the former and parts that will sound more "right" with the latter.

NPLH is as good a place as any to start. The gag about the duct tape gag or the joke about using the monk's head as a bowling ball is very Faithish. Even the joke about splitting Buffy like a worm. Cordy actually fought a dude who split into a bunch of different worms and was horrified by it. She'd never make a joke about it. But Faith totally would.

And I mean, binding and gagging a guy to a chair to torture him for a while and then straddling him while she mockingly taunts him doesn't seem like something Cordy would ever do.

And not to get ahead of ourselves, but there's a scene in "Checkpoint" where they could easily replace Kramer with Dushku and - without any context - no one would be the wiser.

And there's definitely a passive element to the "Cordy" persona and an aggressive element to the "Faith" one. But this goes back to how Cordelia is like her Id and Faith is like her ego. The Id is the part that says "I want! I want! I want!' And Glory is pretty much all want. The ego is the part that says - in Faith's own words - "Want. Take. Have." It's the doer. It's the part of her that, when trying to find a place or meaning to her life the key to her existence, seeks the guidance of a higher power big evil snake.

Just curious, have you made psychology a career. You psycho-analyze people really well. If it weren't for this thread, I wouldn't even put something like that connection together, so while I'm slightly confused by what you have said, I still appreciate it and have something to look out for as I continue the season. Still, the examples about Faith do make sense.

Also, I still maintain Cordelia became a better person from Season 2 onwards. Maybe less rich-brattish, and more accepting of Buffy and her friends. With all these crossovers between the two series, I'm actually surprised Carpenter didn't reprise her role on Buffy as of yet since she left.

 

[JD]

I don't really consider this a spoiler, but I'm not sure, so I'll code it just to be safe.

Spoiler: Cordelia and other Angel characters on Buffy

As far I can remember, we never see Cordelia on Buffy after she leaves. I believe the only Angel character we see on Buffy is Angel himself.

 

[Turtletrekker]

An Angel character does get a shout-out in Buffy's S7 crossover with Angel...

Spoiler: Buffy S7

Uh, Willow... call for you from L.A. Somebody named Fred. The guy sounds kind of effeminate.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Just curious, have you made psychology a career.

Oh gosh no. One of my uncles is a fairly renowned child sociologist - He was a counselor in a few of the school shootings in the late 90s early 00s and now he does lectures and keynotes all over the world. He tried to get me into it - probably because my cousins are more of the dudebro jock variety - and pushed me into taking the obligatory behavioral psych class my freshman year (Just like Buffy!) And he gave me some books to read. But I never acquired a taste for it much beyond the Cliff's Notes level that I could easily apply to my favorite entertainment media.

And my freshman year was also Buffy's freshman year. I had just joined a weeaboo club in which, to my surprise, Buffy was the one live action show they watched. There was one other person in the club that took the same psych class (different prof, though) and between Walsh's lecture in Beer Bad and what happened later that year with Faith and Jonathan, it just came up one time and snowballed.

And I've also had discussions about it online over the years - both here and elsewhere

 

[tomalak301]

Into the Woods

Well, that is the end of Riley. I'm kinda glad because while there were moments I liked, I don't think I ever warmed up to the Riley character. Also, I can't help but take Buffy's side 100% on this argument. I actually liked the scene where Xander talks to Buffy at the end, and it goes with the whole thing of Xander being the most grounded in reality. However, I think Buffy did a lot of Riley in the 1 and a half seasons he was there. For one, and to paraphrase what one of my favorite characters ever in Sci Fi said to another favorite character in the same show, Buffy allowed Riley to be "so much more." If it wasn't for Buffy, Riley would have been some government no-name military guy who would probably still have a chip in his chest. Buffy allowed him to have a life outside of the military, being a civilian and understanding what it really was like to be an individual of free will. Now when Buffy is swamped with visions of the first slayer wondering what her origins are, a psychopath who is going after her "Sister", and the possibility of her Mom dying because of a brain tumor, Riley thinks he's not worthy and goes running to some Vampire brothel prostitution ring. I'm sorry but maybe Buffy does like men like Angel, but I think she gave Riley every chance of a normal life and when things got tough, he couldn't handle it. Basically, Riley was a jerk.

This was a good episode by the way. Don't mess with angry Buffy though. Taking on, what, 6 Vampires and winning was kinda awesome. Also, Anya becoming the bookkeeper might have been one of the best things for the character. I love Anya, her snarky comments and all. She actually does remind me of Season 2-3 Cordelia.

 

[Jayson1]

The way I saw Riley was he at his roots a kind of simple Midwestern type who had those God and Country values in him and felt being a soldier was him doing a important duty to protect America. A very Captain America type of vibe. He fell for Buffy but was disillusioned when he saw what Walsh and the hidden agenda of The Initiative was. He sided with Buffy who he loved because he loves her and knew the initiative was wrong but deep down his core values were still the same.

Then next season comes and Buffy has a lot on her plate with the sister and mom with health issues and it seemed like she didn't have time for him so from his point of view he made this huge life changing decesion for someone who might have cared for him but he could sense that he was not her soulmate and didn't have the same passion for him as she did Angel. So he turns to vamps in order to feel something until getting a second chance to really be who he has always been. A kind of old fashioned guy who is a solider. I don't know if this is to much of a spoiler but I will say he will show up again on the show someday. It makes some of this story make even more sense.

Jason

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think it's impossible to not love Anya.

And Caulfield's comedic timing is better than anyone else in the franchise.

 

[tomalak301]

Triangle

This episode was hilarious. Trolls, Spike's snippy dialoge, especially to a manniquin and Xander, and hijinks ensuing. I wonder if it was purposeful for this series to do a take on The Cat in the Hat, considering they referenced it at the beginning of the episode. It also ends with Dawn finding out what she is, or at least overhearing the conversation. Nice way to push the arc forward in an episode that was standalone, but very good standalone.

Checkpoint

Watching the previously on and then having the full Watcher's Council there, I was dreading another put Buffy to the test episode. Thankfully that didn't happen, and Buffy, in all her awesomeness told them off. That was an awesome scene, especially calling out her family. We also learn Glory is a God. I kind of figured it was a god-like figure considering every time you think she is killed she isn't (and having a building fall on her and her surviving was kind of a giveaway). It was nice that a moment from Season 3 was rectified here.

Spike and Joyce bonding over a soap opera was hysterical, by the way.

 

[tafkats]

The Queller demon is one of three demons in the entire show (besides Der Kinderstod) that freaks me out!

The scene where Buffy turns up the volume on the cheerful salsa music and starts sobbing at the kitchen sink while Joyce is being stalked by the Queller demon is one of the most wrenching moments of the series. The juxtaposition of Joyce's terrified helplessness, Buffy's unawareness, the incongruously upbeat music, and Buffy's raw emotion makes it so difficult to watch, but also so powerful.

One of my favorite moments from this part of the arc is the Buffy/Dawn moment at the beginning of "Shadow" where Dawn is babbling about why they call it a CAT scan. You can see Buffy spin on a dime from being about to snap at her -- the irritated big sister reaction -- to registering that Dawn is terrified and talking is her way of coping. In that moment when she starts to snap, pauses, then puts her arm silently around Dawn's shoulders, she goes in an instant from sister to parent.

That moment also touches on a recurring theme in their relationship ... that while Buffy will face any physical danger for Dawn, while she will not hesitate to kill or maim anyone who threatens her, connecting with Dawn on an emotional level is always a little bit hard for her. In a way, it's connecting with anyone emotionally that's hard for her. We've seen her push people away for their own safety as far back as Season 1, but by Season 5 she seems to have fully internalized the role of protector to the point where it interferes with her ability to connect with other people.

The depth of Buffy's characterization throughout Season 5, both through the writing and through some stunningly good acting on SMG's part, are a big part of why it's probably my favorite season of the show.

 

[tomalak301]

Blood Ties

Man when they have big arc marquee episodes, they really do swing for the fences. This episode was amazing and I think this was Tratchenberg's best performance as Dawn yet. Dawn is a 14 year old teenager and her entire world view has been turned upside down. The way she handled it was relatable and really understandable. Her managing to put everything together, read what the key is, try to talk to the mental patients, basically use every tool she could think of was understandable all the way through. She is scared, lost, confused, and pretty much totally alone. Dawn may have moments where she is a little annoying, but I love what the writers are doing. They are building this character from an annoying child to someone you kinda just want to hug, despite that annoying moments. That scene at the end with Buffy comforting her and explaining that yes she was her sister was emotionally impactful.

I also think this episode did the Family as kin message much better than Family did. Where that episode introduced us to characters we only see once, we have seen Dawn since the beginning of the season. We have seen Dawn be a member of the family and when she finds out those memories are a lie, her reaction is fear and a feeling of loneliness. Well here comes Buffy to pretty much say you aren't alone, we're in this together, and no matter what you are, you are still my sister. That's what family is all about. EIther it's a family kin or family in forms of friends, it's about love and protecting one another. This one was also more impactful.

Glory is slowly becoming my favorite villain. She's still crazy, but she's ruthless and I'm really glad they started to explain Glory and Ben's relationship. I'm starting to think it's a brother and sister god thing where they didn't see eye to eye. But then Ben turned into Glory so are they the same person. Is this the god-like figure fighting between good and evil? Are we going to get a Gul Dukat like story where the Key isn't to go somewhere, but to open the portal to come to our universe, kind of like Dukat wanting to use the book to release the Pah Wraiths?

Well, that's my "I haven't watched this series before" speculation. It could be wrong, but this episode gave us a lot of information. Great episode.

@tafkats

I loved those scenes and your reading about Buffy on an emotional level. It kind of matches too with her and Reily and the emotional disconnect they both shared. I'm really impressed with how Buffy is being written this season, and Gellar is doing such an amazing job with it.

 

[CorporalClegg]

So you suspect there's some connection between Ben and Glory?

Oh, and I believe this was DeKnight's first writing credit with Mutant Enemy. He writes Marsters really well. Wrote all his best stuff for Smallville too.

 

[tomalak301]

So you suspect there's some connection between Ben and Glory?

Yes I do. Maybe a fight between good and evil connection

By the way, when you were talking about Audio levels, have I passed it yet? I don't think I've passed the next episode in the big 4 yet, or the controversy. I haven't really noticed anything out of the ordinary, unless Spike dreaming about him and Buffy in bed was the Controversial thing, to which I say, That's it?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Yes I do. Maybe a fight between good and evil connection

By the way, when you were talking about Audio levels, have I passed it yet? I don't think I've passed the next episode in the big 4 yet, or the controversy. I haven't really noticed anything out of the ordinary, unless Spike dreaming about him and Buffy in bed was the Controversial thing, to which I say, That's it?

The audio levels thing will be related to the big 4 episode, and you'll definitely know it when you see it. You are getting very close, btw.

Also, just fyi, the 'connection between Ben and Glory' thing is a tongue in cheek reference to a particular bit of dialogue from later in the season. That you'll also definitely know when you see it.