Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I think you meant to say that you are fully on board WITH Tara.

And now you understand what I meant when I said my favourite couple was “extra flamey.”

And in the same way that Tara brought out confidence in Willow, she does the same for Tara. You’ll see that as time goes on.

 

[Jayson1]

I was always found Tara to be kind of boring. But she is way more interesting than a final season character that I don't want to mention because it would be a big spoiler but kind of relates to this topic.


Jason

 

[tomalak301]

I think you meant to say that you are fully on board WITH Tara.

And now you understand what I meant when I said my favourite couple was “extra flamey.”

And in the same way that Tara brought out confidence in Willow, she does the same for Tara. You’ll see that as time goes on.

Yes and I made the necessary edit. Stupid typing on my phone and all that.

 

[JD]

Willow/Tara is one of my favorite episodes in the series.

 

[tomalak301]

I was always found Tara to be kind of boring. But she is way more interesting than a final season character that I don't want to mention because it would be a big spoiler but kind of relates to this topic.


Jason

It was a slow build for me, but at least it was a build and not staying at the same place again and again. There was a few episodes where Tara was in it but I didn't talk about her mainly because I didn't know what to say. When she started being featured more in the last few episodes, I've been enjoying how the story has been progressing. I think the last episode and this episode was Tara at her absolute best so far.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Back in the 90s my gay friends were over the moon about being brought in from the cold.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I was always found Tara to be kind of boring.

 

[gblews]

This is intentional.

SPOILERS!!!

 

[tomalak301]

The Yoko Factor

This one was pretty good, but a little too soapy for my tastes. I can't help but feel like if I watch the Angel parts with this crossover, it's mainly for the love soap opera triangle with Angel and Buffy, even though I am looking forward to seeing how Faith gets caught up in everything. I am still planning to do the switch thing, but this episode did a relatively decent job catching me up to speed on what happened, while progressing the Season 4 storyline.

The best parts of this episode, and something that's been building for the last few episodes was Spike's willingness to go with Adam's plan to get the chip out. Looking back on this season, I can actually see the division. In fact, I think I've mentioned how much apart the group has been, with Willow and Tara and Buffy and Riley and Xander and Anya. This was the episode where all of that came to a head, and I actually liked the Beatles analogy quite a bit. I also know this episode was part 1 of a two parter so as a set up it was pretty good, especially coming down to the end of the season.

 

[tomalak301]

Primeval

And that concludes the Initiative storyline. I'm pretty happy about that, considering Adam just was not nearly as good any of the other big bads this series had. I really did appreciate the show addressing my concerns about the team being broken a part a lot this season, and I loved the talk Willow and Buffy had in the elevator shaft. I'm also happy that Riley's chip is now removed so we can progress with that character and he may not be as boring now. I did really enjoy the final 20 minutes of that, which was basically all out carnage. Also, Spike is now on the good guys side, mainly because I don't think that chip will ever be taken out anytime soon. That's an interesting direction to take the character and it makes what @CorporalClegg said a few days ago make all the more sense. Also, who were the government guys. We only saw them for two episodes but we never find out who or what they are. I'm not sure I care, but just covering all the bases and all that.

The fight between Buffy and Adam reminded me a little bit of the scene with The Doctor, Rose, and the Daleks in the first season finale of the new Doctor Who. You have this all powerful force, and then here comes Rose as The Bad Wolfe to wipe them all out thanks to an outer power. Or maybe a better comparison would be the Doctor vs. the Cyberman. I'm actually seeing a lot of influences to shows that won't air for a few years in this show. Maybe it's unintentional, but noticeable.

That episode felt like a season finale, and I'm a little surprised it wasn't. Should be interesting to find out why they ended that big conflict with one episode left. Overall though, this was probably the weakest of the four main conflicts the series has had. It just dragged and felt boring at various spots. Also, as I said, Adam didn't have the personality of the Mayor or Angelus.

 

[OCD Geek]

Now that you're done with the meat and potatoes of Season 4, allow me to un-"Spoiler" my conversation from a while back regarding all of the issues that derailed Whedon's original plans for the year.

Yeah, Season 4's myth arc is kind of a mess due to several actor availability issues (we'll get more into specifics as the season goes on). Season 4 does have some of the best stand alone episodes of the entire series, though. It's a flawed but underrated season.

I would agree season 4 has a couple really good episodes. Just the problem is The Initiative comes off as ridiculous. It was obviously written by somebody with no military knowledge and they never have clear enough goals to make sense.

Very true, but Professor Walsh was originally intended to be the season's Big Bad not Adam. Lindsey Crouse quitting the show halfway through the season fucked up the myth arc big time. There's a reason why Adam feels like an ass-pull and why his plan to separate Buffy from her friends despite his plan hingeing Buffy working with her friends makes no goddamn sense.

Hell, Adam's end game is most certainly different from what Professor Walsh and The Initiative's original end game was. I doubt their goal was to kill themselves in a bloodbath. The weaponisation of demons would have probably played a bigger role, but who knows for sure.

EDIT: Or perhaps there would have been more incidents like Oz being kidnapped and experimented on. Anya was a former demon.

That sounds like a much better story. Couldn't they have just made up some higher order commander and do the "Suspiciously similar replacement" thing?

They had already spent half a season establishing her emotional connection to both Buffy and Riley. Not to mention her competitive relationship with Giles as a competing mentor/surrogate parent. Just popping another actor in a similar role that late in the game wouldn't have worked.

Plus the season was already crippled by two other actors' availability. Oz's arc was cut down to a single episode, although they were still able to salvage the "Initiative kidnaps and experiments on Oz" aspect of the season later on. Although that was probably drastically cut down from the original plans too. Maybe Anya would have been impacted as a former demon.

And then Kristine Sutherland was filming a movie overseas and was only available for a couple episodes here and there. Given the foreshadowing in Season 3, it wouldn't surprise me if the original plan was for Joyce and Giles to grow closer together while both of them dealt with their own Buffy-related empty nest syndrome. Instead we got Olivia for a couple episodes. A big complaint about the season is that some of the Scoobie's character arcs felt meandering and aloof. They mean Giles and Xander's arcs. Xander's season arc was that way by design, but Giles would have had a stronger arc if my suspicions about Joyce's original role in the season are true.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot about the Veruca of it all. I'm sure she would have gotten into some wacky shenanigans (and maybe even clashed with The Initiative) had she been a major presence throughout the season like originally planned.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Willow's smirk when Buffy tells the Colonel to go fuck himself still makes me squeal with glee.

The spell they did was sort of the thematic antithesis of Adam's plot. Buffy was the "hand". In other words, she was the other three's puppet. She gave her will over to them so they could work their mojo together. But she did so out of love and complete and utter trust. **

On the other hand, Adam was trying to forcibly build an entire community of "people" assembled out of human and demon parts. And I think that's the part of what the military concept was originally supposed to support had Walsh remained the main bad. She was a civilian outsider who had no concept of the bond between soldiers. She was trying to build what she thought was 'the perfect army' from some misguided Freudian mumbo-jumbo with no real understanding of what that means. You can't force people into a foxhole together. And I think had she'd stayed around, more of this concept would have been fleshed out. I also think this is why Grahm and Forest were ultimately duds.

**This also acts as a bit of a lead-in into season five. One of its main themes is about exploring and defining what it means to be a family.


...Oh. And David Lynch has entered the chat.

 

[OCD Geek]

There's one thing about the spell I have a major problem with. Buffy is the "Hand", Giles is the "Brain", Willow is the "Spirit" and fucking Xander is the "Heart"?! Now, that will not be the last time the series refers to Xander as "the heart of the group".

Not Buffy. Not Giles. Not Willow. Not Oz or Tara, who are both absolute sweethearts. No, no, no.

Xander "I feel a pre-birthday spanking coming on!" Harris.

Xander "I demand that Buffy loves me and goes to the dance with me because I deserve her!" Harris.

Xander *Constantly calls Cordelia a slut* Harris

Xander *Constantly calls Anya an idiot* Harris

Xander

Spoiler: Season 7 spoiler

*Has an entire five minute scene dedicated to his sex dream about several underage girls*

Harris

I call bullshit. Hey, Joss! The character you heavily based on yourself is a piece of shit!

 

[CorporalClegg]

You're not wrong.

 

[tomalak301]

@OCD Geek , @CorporalClegg

Thanks for the behind the scenes. A lot of what you posted makes sense for the overall season arc. I was a little taken a back with the phase 3 plot, like it was inserted in randomly because they needed something to end the season and Adam was the big bad. I actually liked what could have been, considering a lot of the early part of the season was Walsh as the psyche professor. That aspect of her character was dropped and when they killed her off, it was like the season took a sudden shift. Also, I like the juxtaposition between Buffy and Adam and the idea of trust and family, which was what Willow and Buffy were talking about as they were repelling down. It really did feel like a season hindered by behind the scenes shuffling.

Regarding Xander being the Heart, yeah that leaves something to be desired

Restless

This was a very contemplative episode. I've been asking about the Slayer backstory since the beginning and it sounds like that will be what Season 5 is all about. The first slayer was kind of creepy, but it looks like the whole idea of the slayer goes back to the nomads, which is interesting. I understand why this served as a season finale. It felt like a preview of things to come. This may be the first time I watch Buffy, but it's hard to avoid characters through articles so I might as well reveal something now. A few months ago, I actually read an article about Michelle Trachtenberg, talking about the grief she took from playing Buffy's Sister. There was a scene in this episode where Tara says "Be beck before Dawn" or something like that. I know Dawn is coming in season 5, and it was very interesting that it was hinted about here. Like I said, this episode very much foreshadowed things to come and that actually has me excited for what is to come. Also, I'm not one to bash actresses for playing characters, so my mind is completely open about Dawn. I hope it serves the series well with what is to come.

One last thing, the scene with Giles singing the lines, I can't help but feel like it was this moment Joss was like, yes we need to plan a musical. Can't believe how close we are getting now.

Overall, I liked this episode as a preview for Season 5 and the Slayer origin story. In terms of the overall season, yeah it was a weak season but there were still quite a few enjoyable episodes. My top 5 for this year:

Hush
New Moon Rising
Restless
Fear, Itself
Where the Wild Things Are

 

[CorporalClegg]

Is it too late to point out that cheese is made from curds and wey?

 

[tomalak301]

Is it too late to point out that cheese is made from curds and wey?

That was the meaning of the cheese? Man I'm going to pick up on a lot of stuff when I rewatch this series (maybe next year). I was wondering about the cheese guy.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Everyone wonders about the cheese guy. He really doesn't mean anything beyond the very sidewise reference to Little Ms. Muffet.

And really, the cheese is probably the least important thing to - er - digest in "Restless." There's just so much there. People have written dissertations about it. At real universities, even.

Not to mention it's basically an outline for the last three seasons of the show.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Beware the Cheese Man!

I’m really excited for you to watch season 5 because it’s my favourite. Great arc and villain!

 

[CorporalClegg]

And I should say, too, that I didn't like it at all when I first saw it. in fact, I thought it was kind of stupid.

Now it's my second favorite episode of the show.

it’s my favourite. Great arc and villain!

Mine too.

It's Fun! Fun! Fun!