Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[Jayson1]

Truth be told, my knowledge of the later seasons isn't up to snuff. I know seasons 1-4 pretty much by heart. Mostly because, throughout high school, they were aired nightly in reruns. But, after that, it's pretty select in what I remember. And - a dark little secret - to this day I've still never seen "Dark Page" or "Sub Rosa." And I think I've only seen "Masks" once in its entirety. And even since getting the remasters, I pretty much have stuck to my 10-or-so favorite episodes of each season.

The funny thing, I did watch Voyager in its entirety when it was on and have done so since multiple times.

Why not put on "Dark Page" and "Sub Rosa" tonight and tell us what you think. No time like the present. You don't want to someday be on your death bed thinking "Why did I not watch all of Trek. I had so much time. What if I missed out on 2 hours of brilliant art and now it's to late."

Jason

 

[OCD Geek]

That sounds like a much better story. Couldn't they have just made up some higher order commander and do the "Suspiciously similar replacement" thing?

Spoiler

They had already spent half a season establishing her emotional connection to both Buffy and Riley. Not to mention her competitive relationship with Giles as a competing mentor/surrogate parent. Just popping another actor in a similar role that late in the game wouldn't have worked.

Plus the season was already crippled by two other actors' availability. Oz's arc was cut down to a single episode, although they were still able to salvage the "Initiative kidnaps and experiments on Oz" aspect of the season later on. Although that was probably drastically cut down from the original plans too. Maybe Anya would have been impacted as a former demon.

And then Kristine Sutherland was filming a movie overseas and was only available for a couple episodes here and there. Given the foreshadowing in Season 3, it wouldn't surprise me if the original plan was for Joyce and Giles to grow closer together while both of them dealt with their own Buffy-related empty nest syndrome. Instead we got Olivia for a couple episodes. A big complaint about the season is that some of the Scoobie's character arcs felt meandering and aloof. They mean Giles and Xander's arcs. Xander's season arc was that way by design, but Giles would have had a stronger arc if my suspicions about Joyce's original role in the season are true.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot about the Veruca of it all. I'm sure she would have gotten into some wacky shenanigans (and maybe even clashed with The Initiative) had she been a major presence throughout the season like originally planned.

 

[Tuskin38]

Ugh, no streaming services have the series in Canada, I want to re-watch.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Spoiler

They had already spent half a season establishing her emotional connection to both Buffy and Riley. Not to mention her competitive relationship with Giles as a competing mentor/surrogate parent. Just popping another actor in a similar role that late in the game wouldn't have worked.

Spoiler

Plus, for better or worse, I think Whedon wanted to preserve the Frankenstein allegory as much as possible, which would have been completely ruined if, say, Conor O'Farrell comes in and becomes the new defacto bad guy.

I think the season story would have been mostly the same - sort of Buffy hodgepodge of Shelley, Nietzsche, and Freud, just in a different sequence of events - i.e. Yoko Factor happens much earlier (and the fallout is more natural and of their own doing), Buffy spends a few eps with the Initiative, then I in Team is the penultimate episode. And then Goodbye Iowa and Primeval are combined into the standard two-part finale. (I also think Restless was intended to be the season 5 opener.)

And then I also think Superstar was meant to occur during Buff's time with the initiative, with Jonathan completely replacing her within the Scoobies. (Maybe even to the point of giving SMG the week off.)

 

[JD]

Spoiler: Season 4

While the overall story of Season 4 is kind of a mess, it did give us chipped Spike, which is one my absolute favorite stories in the whole series

.
Overall, my favorite seasons are 5 and 6, they were the two seasons where we really had the whole cast established and together. Some of my favorite characters didn't even come into the show until season 4, and by 5 they were solidly established. Season 7 was a OK, but a step down from the last two.

 

[tomalak301]

The Freshman

There was a first episode of the series vibe to that episode. Buffy and Willow go to college, Buffy is completely lost and the Vampires she faces are more bullies than really threatening. To go from saving the town of Sunnydale and blowing up the high school to this episode was kind of like a shock to the system.

I think the best part of this episode was actually the one guy I really don't talk about that much, Xander. First off, seeing Buffy happy to see him was really nice, but the talk at the Bronze to get her back on her feet so to speak was pretty nice. Also, the scene where he's trying to quote Yoda was funny. Another scene I liked was the final showdown with Sunday and the rest of her Klan. Not from a battle sense, as I kind of knew that Buffy would win, but this scene brought up the "Spike Flip" that is featured in the title sequence pretty much for the rest of the series. To go from depressed Buffy to "Spike Flip" Buffy was another badass moment in a line of great Sarah Michele Gellar badass moments.

For an opening episode, it was Ok. I do wish there was a more easy transition from last season to this season with at least two lines of dialogue having to do with Angel and Cordelia. I know (Just by looking at IMDB) that Carpenter went over to Angel and is no longer a series regular, but I kind of wish this episode mentioned her and maybe why she's over on Angel now. If there was one thing I forgot to mention at the end of Season 3, it was I actually liked Cordelia's arc about her awkward relationship with Wesley (I know it was for laughs but still) but mainly how she had stumbled on hard times and had to pick up a part time job. There was really no scene that gave me a hint that Cordy was leaving the series, so it would have been nice to get one line saying where Cordy was. As for the rest of the episode, we really only meet the new characters briefly, especially Buffy's new roommate and Reily. It's really too early to get a handle on anything yet.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think you mean "Stake" flip. Spike flip is just Dru being kinky.

 

[tomalak301]

I think you mean "Stake" flip. Spike flip is just Dru being kinky.

Yes, on both accounts.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Do you recall Buffy answering the phone and there not being anyone on the other end? The other end of that phone call can be seen in the Angel premiere, "City of".

 

[tomalak301]

I have a question based on something I noticed during the season four premiere. Was season 4 the first season filmed in HD? It wasn’t the 4 by 3 ratio, but rather the 16 by 9 now. It actually looked a lot better in that it looked more clear.

Also I’ve been thinking about this some more and wonder if I don’t have a choice regarding Watching Angel and Buffy together. I mean you have the small nuggets but there is an episode coming up (I think called Pangs) where it is a direct crossover with an Angel episode and it’s pretty much like the DC crossovers lately. I was so sure I could get by watching one and then the other but right now I’m not so sure.

If I decide to start Angel, what is a good spoiler free guide that I can print out that I can use on the viewing order.

 

[Forbin]

You've gone past it now, but one of my favorite lines at the end of the high school seasons was when Wesley was stutteringly asking Giles if he thought it proper to ask Cordy out.
"Good God, man, she's 18, and you have the maturity of a strawberry scone."

 

[tomalak301]

You've gone past it now, but one of my favorite lines at the end of the high school seasons was when Wesley was stutteringly asking Giles if he thought it proper to ask Cordy out.
"Good God, man, she's 18, and you have the maturity of a strawberry scone."

I liked that line too. Like I said, it was awkward, but the stuff with Cordy and Wesley was pretty good.

By the way, I think I'm going to do the Buffy/Angel thing, and I printed out something from a Joss Whedon blog about the episode order. While I will get the full story I'm actually worried once I get into the season 4 main arc, it might be hard to follow since I will be switching back and forth. Still, I think I was convinced to do this when I watched the Season 4 premiere and Cordelia was not mentioned once.

 

[EnderAKH]

I have a question based on something I noticed during the season four premiere. Was season 4 the first season filmed in HD? It wasn’t the 4 by 3 ratio, but rather the 16 by 9 now. It actually looked a lot better in that it looked more clear.

As I recall from the time in an interview Joss said Buffy was always formatted 4:3 for television except for season 6 episode 7 (Once More With Feeling) and Angel was filmed 16:9 because he felt it was more cinematic. Then Fox Home Video came along behind them and reframed it 16:9 for dvd.

 

[tomalak301]

As I recall from the time in an interview Joss said Buffy was always formatted 4:3 for television except for season 6 episode 7 (Once More With Feeling) and Angel was filmed 16:9 because he felt it was more cinematic. Then Fox Home Video came along behind them and reframed it 16:9 for dvd.

But they left Seasons 1-3 unchanged. That doesn't make sense to only reformat part of the series and not all of it.

 

[EnderAKH]

But they left Seasons 1-3 unchanged. That doesn't make sense to only reformat part of the series and not all of it.

I have no clue about why Fox Home Video does the things they do, like reframing a shot in Friends that blatantly shows a cameraman in the kitchen. I just know Joss said Buffy was shot for 4:3, Angel was shot for 16:9. Here's an article on the subject:
https://news.avclub.com/fox-is-making-buffy-widescreen-and-joss-whedon-isn-t-ha-1798274895

Adding space to the sides simply for the sake of trying to look more cinematic would betray the very exact mise-en-scene I was trying to create. I am a purist, and this is the purest way to watch Buffy. I have resisted the effort to letterbox Buffy from the start and always will, because that is not the show we shot.

 

[tomalak301]

I have no clue about why Fox Home Video does the things they do, like reframing a shot in Friends that blatantly shows a cameraman in the kitchen. I just know Joss said Buffy was shot for 4:3, Angel was shot for 16:9. Here's an article on the subject:
https://news.avclub.com/fox-is-making-buffy-widescreen-and-joss-whedon-isn-t-ha-1798274895

That's basically the same reason why the TNG remasters turned out the way they did. It's a good reason.

 

[OCD Geek]

Seasons 1-2 of Angel were actually shot for 4:3 too. It wasn't until the show became more epic during the course of Season 2 that Greenwalt and Whedon decided to go widescreen the next year. And I'm 85% certain that Angel's fifth and final season is the only season of the Buffyverse actually shot in HD.

 

[CorporalClegg]

All of Buffy and Angel was filmed in 16:9 but framed for 4.3. The only difference in filming was the first season and about half of the episodes in season 2 were shot on 16mm.

This was chosen over strictly shooting to 4.3 because it affects things like focus and zoom angles and the like. A good example is the "Spielberg shots" at the end of the credits. Those close-ups on Sarah's face would look different if they were shot strictly to 4:3 or kept at 16:9. Plus, shotting directly to 4:3 for TV at the time usually meant using tape instead of film for cost.

Assuming the episodes were never going to be presented outside of 4:3, the production staff took little care as to what was left on film but out of frame. However, by mid '99 after Clinton really started pushing the "HD Future" thing, networks started making efforts to future-proof their shows. As such, they basically told Whedon to keep the entire shot 'clean' - i.e. keep all the stagehands and equipment and whatnot out of the film exposure completely.

Despite this, Whedon, Contner, etc. approaching shot set-ups, lens choice, lighting, and all that with the assumption the shows would forever be presented in 4:3. So, starting with season four, even though the masters had nice clean 16:9 reels, the intent was they'd be framed down for broadcast. And they were all through Buffy and up the last season of Angel. ("Once More With Feeling" is the only exception. It was shot and presented fully in 16:9.) However, the WB disregarded the "artistry" and broadcast in 16:9 for season five of Angel, anyway. Though it was still in 480p, so it wasn't really HD.

As far as the DVD releases, there were three separate versions released. (Though I think the second was really just a change in packaging.) The first release - which was seasons by season and started while the show was still on the air - kept the 4:3 aspect ration for everywhere except Region 2 which, for whatever reason, left seasons six and seven in 16:9. This made have had something to do with Paramount over WB, but I don't know because Fox was in charge of the home distribution. Then in the last release, which was the full series collection (and added a bunch of extras), added seasons 4 and 5 to 16:9 everywhere except region 1, which kept 4:3 for all seasons. In other words, the big box set remains 4:3 throughout the series in North America. For the whole rest of the world, it changes to 16:9 from season four onwards.

The ridiculous thing about the badness of the remasters is, even if they wanted to have it in 16:9, they could have just upscaled the last four seasons from the 16:9 masters like they did for Gilmore Girls. (WB told ASP the same thing they told Whedon, but she chose to approach filming the same way he did. So GG also presented in 4:3 despite the stock being 16:9.) But they didn't. They cropped them, which makes for some ridiculous framing in some shots. But I digress...

I don't know anything about the Angel home releases. I never bought them or cared enough to look into it.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

You've gone past it now, but one of my favorite lines at the end of the high school seasons was when Wesley was stutteringly asking Giles if he thought it proper to ask Cordy out.
"Good God, man, she's 18, and you have the maturity of a strawberry scone."

Blueberry scone.

 

[OCD Geek]

I don't know anything about the Angel home releases. I never bought them or cared enough to look into it.

Here in the US, Angel: Season 1 was released on DVD in 4:3 as intended (and broadcast) and Seasons 3-5 were released on DVD in 16:9 as intended (and broadcast). Season 2, however, was released on DVD in 16:9 rather than the broadcast and intended 4:3. Greenwalt and Whedon were pissed.

There's one big fuck up off the top of my head in the season premiere. There's a scene where Angel & co are in a gym and the camera shows just Angel's team walking and talking with Angel heard too but unseen. The camera then pans out to show that this is the wall-length mirror, and Angel was walking and talking with them unreflected the whole time. Thanks to the 16:9 re-framing, you can clearly see David Boreanaz waiting up ahead until he joins them right before the camera pans out.

I forget if there's any other big issues like that. Most of the rest of it is just the gang frequently huddled together in the middle of the frame. Are Angel and his friends really, really comfortable with each other? Or do they all just give zero fucks about each others' personal space? You decide!