Buffy Season 6: The Troubled Experiment

[Mr Light]

How to improve Season Six?

No Buffy/Spike sex and certainly no rape scene.
A real villain with real action scenes.
Not so much with the money problems (I thought she got the Watchers Council to pay her back in Season Five?)
A LOT less real life mopey depressing crap.
No Doublemeat Palace.
Buffy isn't a shrill bitch but a fun lead like back in S1-3.

 

[label]

Not so much with the money problems (I thought she got the Watchers Council to pay her back in Season Five?)

Say, that's an excellent point. And come to think of it, since she was working for the council again, how is it that Giles - her watcher - could just leave? Seems like the Council would always have a watcher serving as Liaison to them. Speaking of which, that brings me to another problem with Season 6 ; Not enough Giles.

A LOT less real life mopey depressing crap.
No Doublemeat Palace.

No doubt. I mean, I know it's real......been there, done that.....but still......

Buffy isn't a shrill bitch but a fun lead like back in S1-3.

Yeah, by Season 6 those days are long gone my friend.....

 

[DevilEyes]

How to improve Season Six?

No Buffy/Spike sex and certainly no rape scene.
A real villain with real action scenes.
Not so much with the money problems (I thought she got the Watchers Council to pay her back in Season Five?)
A LOT less real life mopey depressing crap.
No Doublemeat Palace.
Buffy isn't a shrill bitch but a fun lead like back in S1-3.

In other words, you wanted the show and its characters to remain the same throughout all 7 seasons.

I am very glad that you didn't get your wish.

(I would prefer no Doublemeat Palace. Which is the only thing I agree with you on.)

3. I could never *really* buy Buffy sleeping with Spike.Could be that I'm in the middle of Season 4 and it seems like such a reach from where the character are at, but it just didn't seem believable to me. Granted, they did establish that Buffy had a dark side and that the "demon" in her influenced who she was becoming, so I suppose one could argue the merits of their relationship from that angle. And yes, I know she tells herself she was only sleeping with Spike to feel something, anything, but surely Buffy could have found someone a bit more reasonable to scratch that particular itch if that's what she desired. Not a huge quibble with the season, but still.

Which is why the interpretation of her actions as "she was just using Spike for sex and didn't think of him as a person" doesn't hold water. Yes, she is using him, but that's far from the whole story. And it doesn't even begin to address the question of why it's him of all people that can make her feel something. If you were just looking for a "convenient" person to use for sex, you'd pick up some guy in a bar or in a workplace for a one night stand, and surely a beautiful woman like Buffy could find plenty of those. But if you instead get into an obsessive affair with a soulless vampire/serial killer, and not just any soulless vampire, but former enemy who had been trying to kill you for ages before professing his love for you, and you do it after you've learned that he's able to physically hurt you, well, there's got to be something way more complicated and psychologically messed-up going on there. Especially if your first love was a noble vampire you fell in love with despite (or because?) of his dark past, who turned into a soulless monster/psycho killer after taking your virginity, who you then had to kill in order to do your duty and save the world, and who came back but who eventually left you for your own good.

I also didn't buy that the idea that Buffy didn't regard Spike as a person - yes, she did her best to objectify him and treat him as "evil, soulless thing" because it was easier than to deal with some other issues - but when you look at it, it's rubbish. She's never treated him as a "thing" before. Even when they were trying to kill each other and then forming an uneasy alliance in season 2, their antagonism was always very personal, she had never treated him as just some vampire, a soulless thing - you stake those, you don't tell them that you hate them, or "violently dislike" them, "you're pathetic", "you're a pig", you don't criticize their character flaws, such as being selfish and caring more about getting back their girlfriend who is a "big ho" than about the world falling apart. Those are the kind of things you say to a person, someone who is responsible for their choices and who you presume of being capable of being better.

In other words, the interpretation of her motives that you state here really doesn't make a lot of sense, if we assume that's all there is. But I see a lot of different layers to the Buffy/Spike storyline, and I find it fascinating in many ways. I may be an odd case because I enjoyed all of Buffy's relationships, I think they were well developed and had crucial significance for the development of her as a character in different stages of her life. I love Buffy/Angel, I like Buffy/Riley (as a story, not in a sense of them being a well matched couple) which few people seem to do, and Buffy/Spike is the one that I find most interesting, ambiguous and layered. I could analyze B/S for ages (and compare/contrast it with B/A)... But I guess it all comes down to whether you can relate to the characters, and in this case, I related and empathized with both.

But since Buffy seems to be the more misunderstood one when the fandom is concerned (poor girl, she just couldn't do right once she slept with Spike, did she? Half of the fandom reviles her for getting involved with him in the first place, while the other half bashes her for treating him badly), I'm going to link to two old fanfics, both written by one of my favorite fanfic authors, Selena (who also wrote some amazing DS9 stories). They're not typical fanfics, rather retelling of events from the show from Buffy's POV (but in 2nd person). It helps that the author is a major fan of Buffy the character.

Revelations - the morning after scene from Wrecked, from Buffy's POV. Apparently written shortly after the episode aired.
First Sights, Last Sights - Buffy's thoughts and memories of Spike over the years, set some time early in season 7 (and written around that time).

These two sum up exactly what I got from watching the show and how I saw her feelings. One of my favorite parts:

Spoiler: First Sights, Last Sights

The first time you understand what he can do for you, and the end of all peace between the two of you: when he sings. Because you're angry, and annoyed, and aroused, and more alive than you ever were since Willow made you return. And that confidence, that certainty that protected you before you died, it's gone. There's just him, and he's burning with need, and you're cold, so cold, but you know he could warm you. You run away in time before anything happens, but a few hours later you are in his arms, and you're kissing him the way you never kissed anyone since Angel left, kisses without any consideration or restraint, and you feel again.


Sometimes you wonder what would have happened if that demon had not come to Sunnydale. Whether you and Spike would have gone on with peaceful visits and unspoken thoughts. Then you decide, not for long. Perhaps the singing made everything happen faster. In any case, it produces feelings in you alright, desire and shame and hate, for yourself because you know very well you're doing this for all the wrong reasons, and for him, because he is what he is. And sometimes, rarely, but still sometimes, there's an odd moment of joy and freedom. He can still make you smile as well as he can make you angry. But no matter whether it's in his crypt or later, when you arrive at your home, the guilt always comes back. You're not sixteen anymore, or falling in love for the first time. You're not falling in love at all. You don't know what to call it, the ever more suffocating web of emotions between you, but it's not love. You cannot allow it to be. You know how it will end, sooner or later. The chip will fail, because if the interlude with the Initiative has taught you one thing, it's that technology ultimately always loses against the Hellmouth. The chip will fail, and he will kill again, secretly perhaps, in order not to disturb you, but he will kill, because he genuinely can't understand why he shouldn't, and then you will have to stake him. There are no excuses for you, none at all, and yet you keep coming back to him, again and again.

And here's one short essay with an interesting idea that Buffy became a "metaphorical vampire" in season 6 (which fits with her statement from season 7 "I acted like a monster"). http://community.livejournal.com/lateseasonlove/4473.html

Another excellent essay: http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/31880.html

 

[DigificWriter]

My feelings about Season 6 should be pretty much common knowledge around here, so I won't rehash them. I did, however, want to address a couple of the points of debate that have cropped up in the thread thus far, those being the Spike/Buffy relationship and whether or not the Xander/Anya relationship should have been resumed at some point during the course of Season 7.

First, to DevilEyes and anyone else who didn't see the Buffy/Spike relationship as being plausible or making sense, I'd like to point out a couple of things:
1) The seeds of romantic chemistry between the two characters were actually planted way back in Season 2, beginning with Spike's first appearance in School Hard.
2) Buffy and Spike's relationship - at least from Buffy's side - can be boiled down to the following phrase: 'from LUST to TRUST'. Spike is the one to confess that he is in love with Buffy, and is the one to let love motivate his actions throughout the course of their complicated physical relationship during the events of Season 6 and its aftermath during the events of Season 7. Buffy very much turned to Spike during Season 6 out of a deep-seated depression and psychological trauma stemming from her death and resurrection, and her inability to deal with being forcibly yanked out of a state of paradise and peacefulness, but, particularly during the events of Season 7, grew to trust him just as she had long trusted her other friends... in fact, she came to trust him more than she did her other friends, although those original relationships of trust were eventually restored/repaired prior to the final battle to save Sunnydale from the First.

Regarding the Anya/Xander relationship, there's a couple of things I wanted to say:
1) Joss has never been one to 'do the expected', and, from a narrative standpoint, Xander and Anya repairing their relationship and getting back together falls very much into the category of the expected.
2) Despite the fact that both characters were still very much in love with each other, Anya's decision not to try and repair their relationship even though the opportunity was there demonstrates a major shift in her characterization, and a major 'growing-up' moment for her. It was really necessary for Anya to find herself before she and Xander could repair their relationship, and she came to realize that, with Xander respecting her decision. Had the two characters resumed their relationship without Anya having an opportunity to 'discover herself', I wholeheartedly believe that it ultimately would have failed again because neither character was really in the right frame of mind or headspace to make the relationship work; both characters needed to do a lot of growing up, and it was only by the tail end of Season 7 that said growing up had occurred.

 

[DevilEyes]

First, to DevilEyes and anyone else who didn't see the Buffy/Spike relationship as being plausible or making sense

You must have confused me with someone else. I'm the one who's been arguing that it is plausible and makes sense (and that there had been chemistry from the start), and who really enjoyed the storyline.

 

[DevilEyes]

Speaking of Buffy/Spike... I've just rewatched "The Harsh Light of Day", episode 3 of season 4, where Spike comes back (but he wouldn't become a regular for a few more episodes)... and while I'm not sure if the B/S sexual subtext in seasons 2 and 3 was just due to actors' chemistry or if it was intentional on the part of the writers, even if they didn't plan to do anything with it (S: "Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the blood of a nice, ripe girl" [School Hard], B: "Honey, I'm home!" [Halloween], S: "I'd rather be fighting you" - B: "Mutual!" [What's My Line, part 2], S: "Hello, cutie" [Becoming pr 2), in season 4 the sexual tension is obviously written into their scenes from the start. They were already planning to have Spike chipped and make him a regular (Espenson said that this was why they had to make their last pre-chip fight memorable), so they were probably playing it up since Spike would have a lot more interaction with Buffy and the gang for the rest of the season. The awkward scene with Buffy and Parker running into Spike and Harmony at the Bronze is funny because, to an outsider, Spike and Buffy are totally acting as an ex-boyfriend/girlfriend.

"So, let's look at the new boy! I like him... He's got... Vulnerability."
"And you're with Harmony! Did you lose a bet?"

Even more hilarious when she runs out after them, and instead of staking him (and he even turns his back on her to argue with Harmony at one moment), she taunts him about Drusilla and they have one of those kids-teasing-each-other-on-the-playground moments. It's not surprising that Parker asks Buffy is Spike is someone she used to date - cue hysterical laughter from Buffy: "No, no, definitely no." And then of course there's the fight, with Spike taunting Buffy over Parker and Angel.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I just don't understand how your mind works. If anything, I've always thought that episode was a great example of why them getting together was ridiculous. She laughs at the thought, and was right to laugh at it. In one of her most vulnerable, humiliated moments, where a guy has manipulated her into letting him fuck her by making her think he cared about her when he only wanted to use her, Spike mocks her mercilessly. And I'm supposed to think it makes sense for her to have a relationship with Spike?

I don't care how the circumstances change or how good his dialog is, it's still insane. I don't know how someone can interpret those exchanges as "sexual tension". It was just two people who have absolutely no respect for each other taking nasty verbal shots at one another. "Hey cutie" was a line I interpreted as something he was saying to be ironic, not to express some latent affection. He knew how crazy it was to ask for Buffy's help with Angelus, so he was sort of knowingly showing his amusement at the absurdity of the situation. I never thought it was that they secretly loved each other, more like they loved to hate each other.

I always really liked the Spike character, from his first appearance all the way up to the later seasons where his character was completely eviscerated by crap like the attempted rape, but Buffy's relationship with Spike completely killed all sympathy and affection I had for her as a character. By the last season, I was only interested in the others. The final straw was Spike's story about someone he was in love with saying, "you're beneath me". Buffy finds out about this and uses the same line on him. The bitch. Spike had been feeling shitty about that for like a hundred years and she just threw it right back in his face. I didn't know she had such cruelty in her.

As enemies, the two of them were fascinating. They could alternate between playful rivalry and truly heartless cruelty. As a couple, they're...well, I just feel like one of those watcher's counsel guys who abducts Buffy in Faith's body. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" may not mean anything to you, but it means a hell of a lot to me. They perverted it! The writers should have killed that idea before it hit the page. THE TRASH. *Spits*.

 

[DevilEyes]

I don't know how someone can interpret those exchanges as "sexual tension".

Do you even know what sexual tension is?

You seem to be confusing it with romantic flirting.

It was just two people who have absolutely no respect for each other taking nasty verbal shots at one another.

I presume you also hated seasons 2 and 3, since that's exactly what Xander and Cordelia were doing right before they hooked up... and even after they hooked up.

The final straw was Spike's story about someone he was in love with saying, "you're beneath me". Buffy finds out about this and uses the same line on him. The bitch. Spike had been feeling shitty about that for like a hundred years and she just threw it right back in his face. I didn't know she had such cruelty in her.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone assume that Buffy was in any way familiar with what Cecily told William, or any of the William story for that matter. She's not a viewer, she didn't see the flashback. And from the way Spike started his story ("I was always bad"), I really don't believe that he told her the real story about William. Besides, she doesn't realize yet that he could be in love with her (judging by her surprised and shocked reaction in Crush).

Buffy repeating the line is supposed to be a coincidence. She also repeats Nikki Wood's line to Robin Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me - 'The mission is what matters' - are we're obviously supposed to see this as a coincidence as well.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" may not mean anything to you, but it means a hell of a lot to me. They perverted it! The writers should have killed that idea before it hit the page. THE TRASH. *Spits*.

Oh right, I've just spent hours writing all this stuff because I reallydon't care about the show. I enjoyed all 7 seasons of the show because it doesn't mean much to me. I love all 7 seasons of the show because it doesn't mean much to me. And I've been defending the show, its storylines and late seasons because I don't care about it at all, while you keep attacking and denigrating the show and saying it's because YOU care about it more?



It seems like you should be the one to understand unhealthy and abusive relationships, since you seem to have that kind of "love" for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

 

[RoJoHen]

This is the first time I've ever seen someone assume that Buffy was in any way familiar with what Cecily told William, or any of the William story for that matter. She's not a viewer, she didn't see the flashback. And from the way Spike started his story ("I was always bad"), I really don't believe that he told her the real story about William. Besides, she doesn't realize yet that he could be in love with her (judging by her surprised and shocked reaction in Crush).

Buffy repeating the line is supposed to be a coincidence. She also repeats Nikki Wood's line to Robin Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me - 'The mission is what matters' - are we're obviously supposed to see this as a coincidence as well.

Yeah, it was obviously a coincidence. The fact that Buffy said it meant that yet another woman that Spike cared for ended up feeling exactly the same about him. It hurt him deeply.

And really, how long did it take for Buffy and Spike to actually fall in love? It was well towards the end of Season 7 once Buffy realized what Spike had done to be with her. Before that, Buffy was using Spike. She was living in her own personal Hell, and Spike was the only one she could relate to anymore. She knows what she's doing is crazy. Why do you think she breaks down crying when she's with Tara? She wanted Tara to tell her she came back wrong.

Buffy is just as flawed a character as any. Just because she's the hero doesn't mean she can't make huge mistakes. I certainly wasn't rooting for Buffy and Spike to become a couple, but I understand that their relationship evolved that way given what the characters had been through.

 

[DevilEyes]

Buffy is just as flawed a character as any. Just because she's the hero doesn't mean she can't make huge mistakes. I certainly wasn't rooting for Buffy and Spike to become a couple, but I understand that their relationship evolved that way given what the characters had been through.

That's what I like about her - she is the hero and saves the world a lot and tries to do the right thing over and over, but she is not one of those perfect action heroines who seem to be a Mary Sue or an embodiment of a male fantasy. She's flawed, vulnerable, she makes mistakes, has lots of issues, we don't always have to agree with her or like everything she's doing. She's three-dimensional. There are so many times during the show where I want to slap some sense into her, but at the same time I relate to her because I can see where she's coming from and why she's making those mistakes.

 

[RoJoHen]

In fact, the main reason I find Season 7 so frustrating (in a good way) is that Buffy is such an unlikable bitch most of the time. It's rare that a show will make you root against its main character. You obviously still want her to win, but you hate her at the same time.

 

[label]

She's never treated him as a "thing" before. Even when they were trying to kill each other and then forming an uneasy alliance in season 2, their antagonism was always very personal, she had never treated him as just some vampire, a soulless thing - you stake those, you don't tell them that you hate them, or "violently dislike" them, "you're pathetic", "you're a pig", you don't criticize their character flaws, such as being selfish and caring more about getting back their girlfriend who is a "big ho" than about the world falling apart.

Alright, you make some interesting points about Spike and the potential groundwork that may have been laid for a relationship between the two characters, but I'd like to play devil's advocate for just a second in response to the above argument you make about how you believe Buffy views Spike back then.

If the "Buffy" story were "real" then perhaps I could buy that this Buffy person actually had some interest in Spike. For me, however, this breaks down when I consider the real world reasons that the dialog above was probably introduced. In the history of Good guy vs. Bad guy in stories, in literature, you never simply have the good guy find the main antagonist of a story, "stake" him without so much as a quip here or verbal jab of any sort and move on. There's always this mutual "love/hate" or "respect/fear" type of relationship between the main combatants in the story. That Buffy and Spike bickered and bantered was far more about the writers making you care about Spike more so that when Buffy beats him, it'll be more satisfying than it was supposed to be telegraphing some sexual tension that I didn't see until Season 5.

For me, their verbal jabs was no more an indication that Buffy and Spike are attracted to each other than when Superman and Lex Luthor trade jabs and I hardly think there's some unrequited attraction there. (Good lord I hope not).

All the things you point to as tension/interest IMO up until Season 5 read to me as a way of making the main bad guy or new "team-member" more interesting and less 1-dimensional. New characters like that only really gain dimensionality most of the time through interaction with characters we already know and identify with and that's what I think they were doing with Spike and Buffy until Season 5.

 

[DigificWriter]

My opinion about Season 7 has been documented almost as well as my opinion about Season 6, so I won't really rehash it here, but will say that there were a lot of things about S7 that could have been awesome if they'd been executed/handled just slightly differently. One of those things is Buffy's alienation from her friends and her increasing bitchy and superior attitude. As developed, Buffy's behavior seems to fluctuate from one extreme to the other in the 'blink of an eye', which ultimately ends up undermining what the writers were trying to do.

Boo Much Fun, you don't seem to be willing to admit or realize that a lot of the opinions you've formed vis a vis the nature of Buffy and Spike's relationship are actually inaccurate and can be proven to be inaccurate. Here are some examples of how:
* As myself and DevilEyes already pointed out, there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere

* As DevilEyes pointed out, there is absolutely no on-screen evidence to support the idea that Buffy ever learned the full truth about Spike's human life and the circumstances that led to the careful construction of his current personality and persona. I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Buffy does feel Spike is beneath her, particularly prior to the events of Season 6, but the idea that this was based on some intimate knowledge of his human past as William was never ever stated or even implied on-screen. The fact that Spike is attracted to Buffy despite her obvious dislike for him and contempt for him prior to the events of Seasons 6 and 7 says a lot more about the nature of his character than it does about the nature of Buffy's character or the idea that she could eventually see beyond her preconceived notions of who he is/was and come to trust and care for him in the manner that she does.

* As I already pointed out, the idea that Buffy returns Spike's feelings of romantic love is actually never stated on-screen, at least not concretely. As I also already pointed out, the nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship and the progression thereof - from Buffy's side of the equation, at least - is based very much on a pattern of 'from LUST to TRUST'. The nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship - at least during Season 6 - also serves as a mirror to Willow's character arc throughout the course of Season 6, in that, in a way, Buffy is as much a prisoner of addiction as Willow; the only thing that differs in the nature of that 'addiction'.

 

[label]

One of those things is Buffy's alienation from her friends and her increasing bitchy and superior attitude.

Yeah, as others have pointed out, this made Buffy a really difficult hero to root for.

the nature of Buffy and Spike's relationship are actually inaccurate and can be proven to be inaccurate. Here are some examples of how:
* .....there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere

I can't speak for Boo, but for myself, I've already presented a very valid literary counter argument that would more than account for their behavior from Seasons 2-most of 5. It isn't until mid-way through Season 5 that there's a hint of any UST from my perspective. Anything before Season 5, in my book, can be chalked up to the case I stated above.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

3. I could never *really* buy Buffy sleeping with Spike.

I'm a big Spuffy fan myself - one of my favorite things about the show.

 

[DevilEyes]

For me, their verbal jabs was no more an indication that Buffy and Spike are attracted to each other than when Superman and Lex Luthor trade jabs and I hardly think there's some unrequited attraction there. (Good lord I hope not).

All the things you point to as tension/interest IMO up until Season 5 read to me as a way of making the main bad guy or new "team-member" more interesting and less 1-dimensional. New characters like that only really gain dimensionality most of the time through interaction with characters we already know and identify with and that's what I think they were doing with Spike and Buffy until Season 5.

I am not really familiar with Superman, so I have no idea how slashy Superman and Lex Luthor are or are not. But there are two things that spring to mind:

1) There's the real reason why Superman/Lex Luthor or Batman/Joker are not portrayed as being attracted to each other in mainstream fiction, and I think both you and Boo Much Fun are very well aware of what it is. It's not because they're mortal enemies. It's because they're both male. And, unlike in fanfiction, mainstream fiction rarely allows the heroes to be gay or bisexual.

Otherwise, how do you explain Batman/Catwoman, James Bond/every female Bond villain ever, Picard/the Borg Queen, Data/the Borg Queen, etc. There's even a Television Trope about it: Dating Catwoman, or, if it remains in subtext, Foe Yay.

2) Well, as I said, I am not too familiar with Superman, but do any of the following scenes and lines happen in any of the Superman comics, films, etc.?

---------------------------
a) Superman and Lex's first confrontation. Lex Luthor (addressing Superman): "Fi, fo, fi, fum. I smell the blood of a nice, strapping young lad." They fight.

b) Superman is transformed into a wimp by a magic spell. Lex nearly kills him, when Superman comes back into his senses and punches Lex: "Honey, I'm home!"

c) Clark/Superman gets a surprise offer of alliance from his nemesis:
Lex: "Hello, handsome!"
Clark: "The world is falling apart and all you care about is that your boyfriend is a big ho? You're pathetic!"
Lex slaps Clark. Superman slaps Lex back.
Superman: "I hate you!"
Lex: "I'm all you've got."

next: Clark has to introduce mom (or dad) to Lex. Mom (or dad) witnesses Clark turning into Superman and is astonished. Lex asks "You mean your mom (dad) doesn't know?!" Superman comes out to his parents. Lex stays in the living room and tries to have a chat with mom (or dad).

d) Some time after: Clark is on a date, he happens to come across Lex with his boyfriend, a loser he knew in high school. It's very awkward.

Lex: "So, let's look at the new boy! I like him... He's got... Vulnerability."
Clark: "And you're with [insert loser boyfriend's name]! Did you lose a bet?"

Clark's date asks him if Lex is his ex. Clark laughs hysterically "no, no, definitely not!"

As he runs out to deal with Lex, they argue some more and Superman taunts Lex about being dumped. Later they fight and Lex taunts Superman about his own failed relationships. "So, that's what it takes to get into Superman's bed?"

e) Later, as Lex is staying/being kept as prisoner/hostage/whatever in Clark's house for whatever reason, Clark's friend mistakenly casts a spell that Clark and Lex should get married. Next thing you know, Lex proposes, Clark accepts, and the two of them spend the next hours constantly making out, whispering sweet nothings, planning their wedding and telling everyone they're madly in love, until the spell is broken.

f) One of Superman's bitterest rivals swaps body with Superman. As Fake!Superman meets Lex and learns who he is, he starts taunting Lex:
Lex: You know why I really hate you, Kent?
Fake!Superman: Because I'm a stuck up tight-ass with no sense of fun?
Lex: Well, yes...
Fake!Superman: Becase I could do anything I want, and instead, I choose to pout and whine and feel the burden of my superpowers? I mean, I could be rich, I could be famous, I could have anything. Anyone. Even you, Lex. I could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled up. I've got muscles you've never even dreamed of. I could squeeze you until you popped like warm champagne, and you'd beg me to hurt you just a little bit more. And you know why I don't? Because it's wrong.

Fake!Superman leaves. Lex is flustered.
---------------------------------


Yeah, I'm sure that nobody would see any UST there. No way.

 

[DigificWriter]

One of those things is Buffy's alienation from her friends and her increasing bitchy and superior attitude.

Yeah, as others have pointed out, this made Buffy a really difficult hero to root for.

the nature of Buffy and Spike's relationship are actually inaccurate and can be proven to be inaccurate. Here are some examples of how:
* .....there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere

I can't speak for Boo, but for myself, I've already presented a very valid literary counter argument that would more than account for their behavior from Seasons 2-most of 5. It isn't until mid-way through Season 5 that there's a hint of any UST from my perspective. Anything before Season 5, in my book, can be chalked up to the case I stated above.

label, the problem with your argument is that it is completely at odds with stated creator intent, and can therefore only really be legitimately applied to Buffy and Spike's interactions throughout the course of Seasons 2 and 4, since, at that point, all that the writers had decided on was that they would bring James Marsters back as a full-fledged, full-time cast member by effectively neutering Spike and thereby creating a situation where his relationship with the Scooby Gang - and, by extension, Buffy - would change from one of antagonism to reluctant allegiance. It's never been stated whether or not the seeds were being deliberately laid for the eventual development of a non-platonic relationship between Buffy and Spike during the course of Season 4, so it's not possible to say for sure whether or not the UST that is present in their interactions throughout the course of that season was intended to actually mean anything (it certainly wasn't during Season 2); however, that doesn't invalidate its existence or the fact that it ultimately ended up becoming crucial and central to the direction that the writers chose to take the characters' relationship beginning in Season 5.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I don't know how someone can interpret those exchanges as "sexual tension".

Do you even know what sexual tension is?

You seem to be confusing it with romantic flirting.

Yeah, sexual tension is between two people who are attracted to each other but for whatever reason are unable to act on their attraction. I didn't see Buffy and Spike insulting each other as an example, but I can see how someone else might interpret it that way, I guess.

It was just two people who have absolutely no respect for each other taking nasty verbal shots at one another.

I presume you also hated seasons 2 and 3, since that's exactly what Xander and Cordelia were doing right before they hooked up... and even after they hooked up.

The difference is that it was played for comedy with Xander and Cordelia. That sappy music would play every time they kissed, and they both agreed that they were using each other and were okay with that and it was funny. It did start to get serious when Xander bought her the chain heart and Cordelia had her accident and almost died.

At that point I felt a little uncomfortable about it because it had been a joke and then all of a sudden we were supposed to take their feelings for each other seriously, but it didn't bother me as much as Spike and Buffy because it wasn't dragged out as long. The cheating with Willow put an end to it not very long after the jarring shift in the tone of the relationship.

The final straw was Spike's story about someone he was in love with saying, "you're beneath me". Buffy finds out about this and uses the same line on him. The bitch. Spike had been feeling shitty about that for like a hundred years and she just threw it right back in his face. I didn't know she had such cruelty in her.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone assume that Buffy was in any way familiar with what Cecily told William, or any of the William story for that matter. She's not a viewer, she didn't see the flashback. And from the way Spike started his story ("I was always bad"), I really don't believe that he told her the real story about William. Besides, she doesn't realize yet that he could be in love with her (judging by her surprised and shocked reaction in Crush).

Buffy repeating the line is supposed to be a coincidence. She also repeats Nikki Wood's line to Robin Wood in Lies My Parents Told Me - 'The mission is what matters' - are we're obviously supposed to see this as a coincidence as well.

Okay, I can admit to not realizing that it was just a coincidence since my memories of the last two seasons are hazy (I haven't watched them start to finish for years, since I hated most of them), but I think the fact that it was a coincidence just proves how hacky the writing was at the time. Buffy just happens to say the absolute most cruel thing she could possibly say to Spike - the exact same words that broke his heart all those years ago and haunted him for years. Yeah, that mission line was the same contrivance, but I found it a little more believable as it makes sense that a lot of Slayers would say such a thing. The other one was so specific to Spike's life, though.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" may not mean anything to you, but it means a hell of a lot to me. They perverted it! The writers should have killed that idea before it hit the page. THE TRASH.

*Spits*.

Oh right, I've just spent hours writing all this stuff because I really don't care about the show. I enjoyed all 7 seasons of the show because it doesn't mean much to me. I love all 7 seasons of the show because it doesn't mean much to me. And I've been defending the show, its storylines and late seasons because I don't care about it at all, while you keep attacking and denigrating the show and saying it's because YOU care about it more?



It seems like you should be the one to understand unhealthy and abusive relationships, since you seem to have that kind of "love" for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

No offense intended. Apologies if any caused. I thought the tongue out smiley made this clear, but apparently it didn't...that last bit was just a joke-y reference. I wasn't accusing you specifically of anything. I was just paraphrasing an episode in an apparently futile attempt to lighten the heated debate with humour.

Obviously we're all passionate about the show here. I love seasons 2-4 and a good chunk of season 5. It's just 6 and 7 that I have a lot of problems with. The first season was sloppy and cheesy, but I can forgive that because it was just getting started and it at least didn't do anything that I hated with the characters.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

This question is for those who dissatisfied with Season 6:

What aspects of Season 6 do you think could have been altered or improved to make the season more of a successful experiment than a failed one?

I think most of the plotlines in Season 6 could have worked in isolation. The problem is that they all occurred simultaneously, creating an endlessly depressing, angsty mess. To some degree, I can understand the idea behind making "real life" into the big bad in Season 6. The problem is that, not only did the heroes constantly fail, but they failed without softening the blow with some fun & good humor. It took so much of the joy & escapism out of the show. That's not to say that every episode needs to be 100% fluffy comfort. But not every episode needs to be "The Body." "The Body" was awkward in a expertly deliberate manner. Season 6 was awkward almost all the time.

That said, I have to concur with a couple of the major criticisms of Season 6 as just flat out BAD IDEAS:

1.) Buffy/Spike was neither pleasant nor interesting. What's more, it was exemplary of the general path of the season of taking Buffy down a very dark road from which she would never return. Not only was it a bad idea in isolation but it also poisoned her interactions with everyone else.

But then, I prefer Buffy when she's single. I wasn't really a fan of her relationships with Angel or Riley either. If she had to be with someone? Well, my inner nerd wants her to get together with Xander. My inner male (as well as my enormous, protruding outer male) wants her to be with Faith.

2.) The Xander/Anya break-up was unnecessary and probably the less interesting option. Joss Whedon rarely does married characters. (Firefly had Zoe/Wash but I don't think they got enough screentime.) I think it would have been more interesting to have a pair of married regulars on the show. Perhaps, if things had at least been going unusually well for Xander & Anya, it would have provided a necessary refuge from the endless angst going on with Buffy/Spike, Willow/Tara, & Dawn/things-she-stole.

The final straw was Spike's story about someone he was in love with saying, "you're beneath me". Buffy finds out about this and uses the same line on him. The bitch. Spike had been feeling shitty about that for like a hundred years and she just threw it right back in his face. I didn't know she had such cruelty in her.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone assume that Buffy was in any way familiar with what Cecily told William, or any of the William story for that matter. She's not a viewer, she didn't see the flashback.

No. I had that same interpretation. Buffy says the line so deliberately that it seems intentionally designed for maximum damage against Spike. It seemed clear to me that Buffy only worded it that way because he told her that that's what Cecily said.

Ultimately, I think Buffy's misstep with Spike was trying to use him as a serious, tragic anti-hero. I think he worked well as a villain in Seasons 2-4 and as comic relief in Season 4 & early Season 5. It was when they tried to turn him into a serious figure in Seasons 6-7 that things really fell apart. Thankfully, Angel rectified this by shifting him back into a comic relief role when he moved to L.A.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Some nasty, depressing stuff happened to the characters, but Joss doesn't always write what we want to see, but rather what we need to see.

Bullshit. It's television. It's entertainment. We don't "need" to see any of it.