Buffy Season 6: The Troubled Experiment

[CaptMurdock]

Buffy Season Six isn’t merely the textbook example of a television series Jumping The Shark – it’s also a life lesson that some deeds can’t be undone and are irredeemable. This goes both for Willow and the show as a whole.

A large part of the blame goes and should go to Joss Whedon, who virtually abandoned the show to develop Firefly, leaving Buffy in the hands of Marti “I never saw a relationship that didn’t end badly” Noxon. Her twisted view of relationships infects the entire season. While some of these effects, such as Willow’s virtual mind-rape of Tara and the latter’s subsequent withdrawal have valid roots, Buffy’s liaison with Spike is just disgusting. As with what happened in the Anita Blake series proves: once you start sleeping with the monsters, you lose all credibility as the heroine. Can anybody ever really look at Buffy the same way again?

Xander might have misgivings about marriage as a concept, given his dysfunctional parents, but to have him leave Anya at the alter is unforgivable. This is the man who faced down Angelus, The Scourge of Europe, with no weapon but his bravado. This is the guy who had been the heart of the Scoobies for five years, no superpowers, no special knowledge, but every bit as indispensible. This is the man who once codified his moral compass as “What Would Buffy Do?” (Hopefully, not sleep with Spike…)

A lot of people point to the final arc of the season as its redeeming point. I wonder if I saw the same finale as everybody else. All I saw was half-hearted direction, piss-poor dialogue (I found Andrew’s “Darth Rosenberg” speech to be the nadir of the season) and actors who looked like they’d rather be anywhere else. Both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan subsequently went on record saying that they hated this arc; Anthony Stewart Head could have mailed his performance from England and not done any worse. The killing of Warren, as much as he arguably had it coming, is impossible to watch.

And having the outright murder of Tara being the springboard to this fiasco, reducing her to a plot point, does a disservice to both the character and the actress. Both Tara and Amber Benson deserved better than this. (I applaud Amber for not appearing as the pseudo-Tara in “Conversations with Dead People.” Having the First, disguised as Tara, taunting Willow to commit suicide, would be pouring salt into an open wound. Thankfully, Amber read the script before signing on the dotted line and flatly declined.)

I stopped reading X-Men during the 80’s because almost every other issue, one of the characters was going through some horrible trauma. It got to the point where each new issue engendered, not anticipation, but dread. I finally decided I simply was not going to spend the money to have my stomach tied up in knots. Similarly, I’ve voted with my remote; nothing Joss Whedon puts his name on will ever interest me again.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

A lot of people point to the final arc of the season as its redeeming point. I wonder if I saw the same finale as everybody else. All I saw was half-hearted direction, piss-poor dialogue (I found Andrew’s “Darth Rosenberg” speech to be the nadir of the season) and actors who looked like they’d rather be anywhere else.

I wouldn't say that the final arc redeemed the season. However, after much of the awfulness that came before, it was relatively angst-free. Everyone shut up and got down to business (whether that business was destroying the world or saving it) instead of whining about how crappy their lives were. They finally brought in some kick-ass action and some plot developments that would have been devastating and wonderful had the previous chunk of the season not numbed us into apathy.

And having the outright murder of Tara being the springboard to this fiasco, reducing her to a plot point, does a disservice to both the character and the actress.

Well, Tara wasn't really more than a plot point to start with. For most of the series, she didn't really have a character. They just wanted to make Willow a lesbian (fair enough) and make her the dominant one in the relationship (). It meant that they had to take the most mild-mannered character on the series and create someone even more submissive?!?!!

In fairness, Tara did finally start to come into her own in "The Body." Telling Buffy about her own dead mother was a good way of establishing Tara's relationships with the other characters independent of her relationship with Willow.

 

[DevilEyes]

Some nasty, depressing stuff happened to the characters, but Joss doesn't always write what we want to see, but rather what we need to see.

Bullshit. It's television. It's entertainment. We don't "need" to see any of it.

Oh, it is bullshit, I agree with that. But probably not for the same reasons as you think.

It's bullshit because Joss couldn't give "viewers" what they want even if he wanted to, because different viewers want to see very different things. As this thread and every damn Buffy-related website prove. It would be impossible to satisfy every portion of the fanbase. (I, for instance, unlike your inner (male) nerd, absolutely don't want to see Buffy with Xander, and I would really hate such a development that would basically amount to "settling to marry one's best friend". )

As for not needing to see any of it? There's a simple solution. Don't watch it, stop whining, and let people who enjoy it keep on watching. Just because you don't like certain storylines, doesn't give you a right to decide that they should not exist. And see, lots of people enjoyed those storylines you hated.

(For the record, I hated the S1-2 Willow/Xander/Buffy unrequited crush triangle, and I really hated Xander/Willow hookup in season 3. But I was able to tolerate it, and I got over it. Even though it's still one of the main problems I have with early seasons.)

A large part of the blame goes and should go to Joss Whedon, who virtually abandoned the show to develop Firefly, leaving Buffy in the hands of Marti “I never saw a relationship that didn’t end badly” Noxon. Her twisted view of relationships infects the entire season. While some of these effects, such as Willow’s virtual mind-rape of Tara and the latter’s subsequent withdrawal have valid roots, Buffy’s liaison with Spike is just disgusting. As with what happened in the Anita Blake series proves: once you start sleeping with the monsters, you lose all credibility as the heroine. Can anybody ever really look at Buffy the same way again?

Then I guess Buffy had no credibility as a heroine since "Surprise".

 

[doubleohfive]

There is a delicious irony behind a bunch of Star Trek nerds who lament their own misfortune on a nearly daily basis here simultaneously bitching about Buffy & the Scoobies doing same during season six.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

As for not needing to see any of it? There's a simple solution. Don't watch it, stop whining, and let people who enjoy it keep on watching. Just because you don't like certain storylines, doesn't give you a right to decide that they should not exist.

The way I see it, when a show creates characters that you really enjoy, you have a right to a somewhat proprietary attitude towards them. Joss Whedon & Marti Noxon put my (TV) friends through hell for reasons that will always be somewhat unclear to me. I resent them for that.

I also think it's not such a bad idea to call foul against a group of talented entertainers who's work as stopped being... you know... entertaining.

For the record, I hated the S1-2 Willow/Xander/Buffy unrequited crush triangle, and I really hated Xander/Willow hookup in season 3.

Really? How come?

A large part of the blame goes and should go to Joss Whedon, who virtually abandoned the show to develop Firefly, leaving Buffy in the hands of Marti “I never saw a relationship that didn’t end badly” Noxon. Her twisted view of relationships infects the entire season. While some of these effects, such as Willow’s virtual mind-rape of Tara and the latter’s subsequent withdrawal have valid roots, Buffy’s liaison with Spike is just disgusting. As with what happened in the Anita Blake series proves: once you start sleeping with the monsters, you lose all credibility as the heroine. Can anybody ever really look at Buffy the same way again?

Then I guess Buffy had no credibility as a heroine since "Surprise".

That's a little different since Angel had been a proven good guy up until that point in "Surprise." Spike had a much spottier record and was more of an ally of convenience. While I think he continued to have a bunch of entertaining scenes, I never could quite buy the story logic of why they left him alive after he betrayed the gang to Adam in "The Yoko Factor"/"Primeval." That incident proved that, even though he had a chip in his brain that prevented him from doing direct harm to humans, he still had malicious intentions and could do damage to the Scoobies. Even if Buffy never got around to slaying him after that, it's hard to believe that Xander, Riley, or Giles never took that precaution; especially after Spike learned that Dawn was the Key.

 

[DevilEyes]

As for not needing to see any of it? There's a simple solution. Don't watch it, stop whining, and let people who enjoy it keep on watching. Just because you don't like certain storylines, doesn't give you a right to decide that they should not exist.

The way I see it, when a show creates characters that you really enjoy, you have a right to a somewhat proprietary attitude towards them. Joss Whedon & Marti Noxon put my (TV) friends through hell for reasons that will always be somewhat unclear to me. I resent them for that.

And you have more proprietary rights over those characters than me or Dennis or DigificWriter or a bunch of other fans how exactly?

I also think it's not such a bad idea to call foul against a group of talented entertainers who's work as stopped being... you know... entertaining.

To you. Not to some others.

For the record, I hated the S1-2 Willow/Xander/Buffy unrequited crush triangle, and I really hated Xander/Willow hookup in season 3.

Really? How come?

In short: the unrequited love triangle never struck me as a believable dynamic in a group of friends we're supposed to see as close and best friends in the world - I've got a couple long-time friends, but we were always really friends and that was it. It struck me as completely false, and it reeked of every cliche-ridden teen soap.

Xander/Willow was hard to reconcile with Willow's love for Oz (and season 2 finale made it clear that it was Oz that she was in love with - and then they completely overturned it in season 3) and made Xander seem like a complete asshole (and I already found him annoying, I only started liking him in later seasons). He never had any romantic interest in Willow until she found someone else? (I guess I was also pissed off because I thought Oz was so much better and cooler than Xander.)

A large part of the blame goes and should go to Joss Whedon, who virtually abandoned the show to develop Firefly, leaving Buffy in the hands of Marti “I never saw a relationship that didn’t end badly” Noxon. Her twisted view of relationships infects the entire season. While some of these effects, such as Willow’s virtual mind-rape of Tara and the latter’s subsequent withdrawal have valid roots, Buffy’s liaison with Spike is just disgusting. As with what happened in the Anita Blake series proves: once you start sleeping with the monsters, you lose all credibility as the heroine. Can anybody ever really look at Buffy the same way again?

Then I guess Buffy had no credibility as a heroine since "Surprise".

That's a little different since Angel had been a proven good guy up until that point in "Surprise." Spike had a much spottier record and was more of an ally of convenience. While I think he continued to have a bunch of entertaining scenes, I never could quite buy the story logic of why they left him alive after he betrayed the gang to Adam in "The Yoko Factor"/"Primeval." That incident proved that, even though he had a chip in his brain that prevented him from doing direct harm to humans, he still had malicious intentions and could do damage to the Scoobies. Even if Buffy never got around to slaying him after that, it's hard to believe that Xander, Riley, or Giles never took that precaution; especially after Spike learned that Dawn was the Key.

Oh, I never said that there wasn't a huge difference in the circumstances. But fact remains that Buffy has been sleeping with monsters (as CaptMurdoch put it) since season 2.

To expand on the metaphor used by Buffy herself (in Crush - comparing chipped Spike to a serial killer in prison): if you're a law enforcement officer sleeping with a serial killer on probation for good behavior, I can't say I'm gonna be too shocked when you start secretly sleeping with a serial killer in prison. Yep, there's a big difference and you've crossed another moral threshold, but to say that it's shockingly out of character... nah. Girl, it's kinda obvious you've had a thing for bad boys all along.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

My point is that, while Angel was a vampire, he wasn't a monster. Spike was a monster. What's more, it wasn't until "Damage" that he started to really realize that and feel appropriately guilty for the things he did.

As for not needing to see any of it? There's a simple solution. Don't watch it, stop whining, and let people who enjoy it keep on watching. Just because you don't like certain storylines, doesn't give you a right to decide that they should not exist.

The way I see it, when a show creates characters that you really enjoy, you have a right to a somewhat proprietary attitude towards them. Joss Whedon & Marti Noxon put my (TV) friends through hell for reasons that will always be somewhat unclear to me. I resent them for that.

And you have more proprietary rights over those characters than me or Dennis or DigificWriter or a bunch of other fans how exactly?

I don't. I'm just expressing my opinion. You're free to have your own (even if it's wrong).

 

[DigificWriter]

I've two sets of comments that I want to make, one directed towards CaptMurdoch and the other towards The Borgified Corpse.

CaptMurdoch: I hate to break it to you, but a lot of your argument is even more inaccurate than the arguments presented by Boo Much Fun and label.

First off, Joss' level of direct involvement in a given season of Buffy is and never was an automatic indicator of the quality of said season(s) as perceived by the fandom at large. If you don't believe me, take a look at the prevailing fandom opinion of Season 4; it is as widely decried by the fandom at large as Season 6 is. Joss didn't actually step down as showrunner of BtVS until 2 seasons later, however, which invalidates/disproves your argument that it was his lack of direct involvement in Season 6 which caused that season to be negatively perceived by a large portion of the fandom.

Second, if Marti Noxon is/was solely to blame for the prevailing perceived crappiness of Season 6, please explain to me how Season 7 - on which she also served as showrunner - can be viewed by the fandom at large in an overall positive light. Granted, it isn't viewed by the fandom as positively as Seasons 2, 3, and 5, but it is viewed positively, in contrast to the prevailing negative opinion of Seasons 6 and (as mentioned above) 4.

The Borgified Corpse: Angel still very much viewed himself as a monster - even with a soul - which, from a certain point of view, makes DevilEyes' point of refutation - concerning CaptMurdoch's assertion that Buffy 'sleeping with monsters' completely disqualified her from being a credible heroine - 100% valid. Both Spike and Angel had stopped behaving like monsters at the time that Buffy slept with them, regardless of the reasons behind the cessation of said behavior. The idea that Spike was still completely a monster at the time he started sleeping with Buffy is also offset/countered by the fact that he actively sought out the restoration of his soul.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Boo Much Fun, you don't seem to be willing to admit or realize that a lot of the opinions you've formed vis a vis the nature of Buffy and Spike's relationship are actually inaccurate and can be proven to be inaccurate. Here are some examples of how:

* As myself and DevilEyes already pointed out, there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere

I don't recall many direct examples of lust between them, particularly on Buffy's end. When did she ever express any attraction to him verbally or through body language before season 5? There's his line calling her 'cutie' when he goes to her for help for the first time, but like I said, I thought he was just being ironic and it was a cool one-liner to surprise us before a commercial break.

* As DevilEyes pointed out, there is absolutely no on-screen evidence to support the idea that Buffy ever learned the full truth about Spike's human life and the circumstances that led to the careful construction of his current personality and persona. I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Buffy does feel Spike is beneath her, particularly prior to the events of Season 6, but the idea that this was based on some intimate knowledge of his human past as William was never ever stated or even implied on-screen.

Yeah, I admitted that I just assumed Buffy had heard the story, because I don't remember the later seasons very well and thought that having heard the story was the only logical way Buffy could know the exact words that could hurt him most. And I still think the fact that the writers put those words in her mouth without her knowing the story is way too coincidental to seem natural and really stretches plausibility.

The fact that Spike is attracted to Buffy despite her obvious dislike for him and contempt for him prior to the events of Seasons 6 and 7 says a lot more about the nature of his character than it does about the nature of Buffy's character or the idea that she could eventually see beyond her preconceived notions of who he is/was and come to trust and care for him in the manner that she does.

* As I already pointed out, the idea that Buffy returns Spike's feelings of romantic love is actually never stated on-screen, at least not concretely. As I also already pointed out, the nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship and the progression thereof - from Buffy's side of the equation, at least - is based very much on a pattern of 'from LUST to TRUST'.

It's not Spike's attraction to Buffy that I find absurd and have trouble understanding, it's her willingness to indulge him at all. There was a lot of time spent with her rejecting and mocking his affections and all of that made sense to me. There were times when it was entertaining and (like the "beneath me" line) also times when it made me like Buffy less because I felt she was being way too cruel, but at least it always made sense.

Once Buffy started actually kissing him and having sex with him, I started to object to what was happening on an intellectual level because it seemed too far-fetched. I mean, I know this was supposed to be a time when Buffy was vulnerable, lonely, and self-destructive, but of all people, she goes to Spike? When she cries to Tara and her friends all have disgusted reactions to finding out about them, I felt like saying, "yeah, tell that to the writers!".

There's no 'in-universe' explanation that can make getting them together make sense to me. All I saw was the writers out of things for Spike to do because he couldn't be a villain anymore and the chip thing had run its course. Now he does and says some very sweet and noble things for her that would make him worthy of her love if he wasn't Spike. I remember him being tortured to protect Dawn and telling Buffy the best night of his 100+ years life was just holding her and watching her sleep. Buffy clearly returns his feelings (albeit reluctantly, which I appreciated, as just throwing herself at him would have been even stupider) when she kisses him for protecting Dawn and tells him she loves him in the series finale.

The things he does for her in the last seasons are wonderfully romantic, but they should have come from someone other than Spike. This is the guy that was trying to kill her for a whole season, who repeatedly insulted her in the most personally humiliating way possible (i.e. the Parker mockery) and creeped her out to the extreme with the Buffybot shenanigans. For him to go from a guy she first considers a scary dangerous murderer to a creepy pathetic stalker to someone she'd actually consider having some kind of relationship with is too much of a stretch for me.

Now once he got his soul back in the last season and therefore felt guilt over his crimes and was definitely a new person, them being together made a little more sense. As a vampire with a soul, he has a whole new level of humanity, and is no longer the exact same person who had done and said so many horrible things to Buffy in the past. By that point, however, Buffy and Spike being a couple would just be a retread of Buffy and Angel, so I still didn't like it.

The nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship - at least during Season 6 - also serves as a mirror to Willow's character arc throughout the course of Season 6, in that, in a way, Buffy is as much a prisoner of addiction as Willow; the only thing that differs in the nature of that 'addiction'.

So what? Just because there's a nice synergy with the other overarching plot line doesn't mean it's a good idea that's rational and interesting to watch. Willow's addiction built on what the character had been through in previous seasons. Oz expressed fear that Willow might get carried away with magic several seasons back. In contrast, Buffy hated Spike from the moment he showed up and he hated her right back, until one day in season 5 he had this dream of making out with her.

Again, you can interpret their trading insults as 'foreshadowing' and 'hints of sexual tension/lust', but that's just imbuing what we saw with what you imagine it meant rather than what was explicitly stated. You can say I'm just being closed-minded and refusing to see beyond what's on the surface, but for whatever reason, I didn't see their treatment of each other as anything more than pure disdain.

This is a conceit I've never understood in fiction and maybe it's because I haven't had the experiences others have had in life - why, so often in fiction, do people go from hating each other to being sexually excited by one another? The same thing happened with Xander and Cordelia and in that episode of "The Simpsons" where Lisa and her future fiancée quickly go from bitterly arguing and insulting each other to making out in about twenty seconds. In those examples, it was done for comedy, so I didn't mind how ridiculous it was, but with Buffy and Spike we were supposed to take seriously a real relationship developing from that starting point. That rang false to me. I don't know...in real life, when myself and another person have been angrily arguing or insulting one another, we've never secretly wanted to rip each other's clothes off and smooch. Does that make me abnormal?

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't even know how to respond to the majority of what you said, so I'm cherypicking from your comments.

Boo Much Fun, you don't seem to be willing to admit or realize that a lot of the opinions you've formed vis a vis the nature of Buffy and Spike's relationship are actually inaccurate and can be proven to be inaccurate. Here are some examples of how:

* As myself and DevilEyes already pointed out, there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere

I don't recall many direct examples of lust between them, particularly on Buffy's end. When did she ever express any attraction to him verbally or through body language before season 5? There's his line calling her 'cutie' when he goes to her for help for the first time, but like I said, I thought he was just being ironic and it was a cool one-liner to surprise us before a commercial break.

I didn't use the word 'lust' in the comment you quoted; I used the abbreviation 'UST', and if you can't see behind their superficial early interactions with each other and come to the correct conclusion about what lies beneath said interactions (unresolved sexual tension), there's really nothing I can do for you.

* As DevilEyes pointed out, there is absolutely no on-screen evidence to support the idea that Buffy ever learned the full truth about Spike's human life and the circumstances that led to the careful construction of his current personality and persona. I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Buffy does feel Spike is beneath her, particularly prior to the events of Season 6, but the idea that this was based on some intimate knowledge of his human past as William was never ever stated or even implied on-screen.

Yeah, I admitted that I just assumed Buffy had heard the story, because I don't remember the later seasons very well and thought that having heard the story was the only logical way Buffy could know the exact words that could hurt him most. And I still think the fact that the writers put those words in her mouth without her knowing the story is way too coincidental to seem natural and really stretches plausibility.

You don't seem to be either a writer or an otherwise very creative person, because using coincidence and 'cyclical writing' to convey narrative is something that is very widespread in creative literature.

The fact that Spike is attracted to Buffy despite her obvious dislike for him and contempt for him prior to the events of Seasons 6 and 7 says a lot more about the nature of his character than it does about the nature of Buffy's character or the idea that she could eventually see beyond her preconceived notions of who he is/was and come to trust and care for him in the manner that she does.

* As I already pointed out, the idea that Buffy returns Spike's feelings of romantic love is actually never stated on-screen, at least not concretely. As I also already pointed out, the nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship and the progression thereof - from Buffy's side of the equation, at least - is based very much on a pattern of 'from LUST to TRUST'.

It's not Spike's attraction to Buffy that I find absurd and have trouble understanding, it's her willingness to indulge him at all. There was a lot of time spent with her rejecting and mocking his affections and all of that made sense to me. There were times when it was entertaining and (like the "beneath me" line) also times when it made me like Buffy less because I felt she was being way too cruel, but at least it always made sense.

Once Buffy started actually kissing him and having sex with him, I started to object to what was happening on an intellectual level because it seemed too far-fetched. I mean, I know this was supposed to be a time when Buffy was vulnerable, lonely, and self-destructive, but of all people, she goes to Spike? When she cries to Tara and her friends all have disgusted reactions to finding out about them, I felt like saying, "yeah, tell that to the writers!".

There's no 'in-universe' explanation that can make getting them together make sense to me. All I saw was the writers out of things for Spike to do because he couldn't be a villain anymore and the chip thing had run its course. Now he does and says some very sweet and noble things for her that would make him worthy of her love if he wasn't Spike. I remember him being tortured to protect Dawn and telling Buffy the best night of his 100+ years life was just holding her and watching her sleep. Buffy clearly returns his feelings (albeit reluctantly, which I appreciated, as just throwing herself at him would have been even stupider) when she kisses him for protecting Dawn and tells him she loves him in the series finale.

The things he does for her in the last seasons are wonderfully romantic, but they should have come from someone other than Spike. This is the guy that was trying to kill her for a whole season, who repeatedly insulted her in the most personally humiliating way possible (i.e. the Parker mockery) and creeped her out to the extreme with the Buffybot shenanigans. For him to go from a guy she first considers a scary dangerous murderer to a creepy pathetic stalker to someone she'd actually consider having some kind of relationship with is too much of a stretch for me.

Now once he got his soul back in the last season and therefore felt guilt over his crimes and was definitely a new person, them being together made a little more sense. As a vampire with a soul, he has a whole new level of humanity, and is no longer the exact same person who had done and said so many horrible things to Buffy in the past. By that point, however, Buffy and Spike being a couple would just be a retread of Buffy and Angel, so I still didn't like it.

There are several in-universe explanations for Buffy's behavior throughout the course of Season 6; you just don't seem to want to accept them. Buffy's conversation with Tara is one, as is her conversation with the vamp (forgot his name) in 'Conversations with Dead People'. There's also the inherent darkness of who she is as the Slayer, and her tendency to try and escape her problems and issues in the most superficial of ways (running away from home after the events of 'Becoming', keeping secrets from the people she should've been trusting, etc.).

The nature of the Buffy/Spike relationship - at least during Season 6 - also serves as a mirror to Willow's character arc throughout the course of Season 6, in that, in a way, Buffy is as much a prisoner of addiction as Willow; the only thing that differs in the nature of that 'addiction'.

So what? Just because there's a nice synergy with the other overarching plot line doesn't mean it's a good idea that's rational and interesting to watch. Willow's addiction built on what the character had been through in previous seasons. Oz expressed fear that Willow might get carried away with magic several seasons back. In contrast, Buffy hated Spike from the moment he showed up and he hated her right back, until one day in season 5 he had this dream of making out with her.

Again, you can interpret their trading insults as 'foreshadowing' and 'hints of sexual tension/lust', but that's just imbuing what we saw with what you imagine it meant rather than what was explicitly stated. You can say I'm just being closed-minded and refusing to see beyond what's on the surface, but for whatever reason, I didn't see their treatment of each other as anything more than pure disdain.

DevilEyes, myself, and others aren't 'interpreting' anything; we accept what is staring us straight in the face, and what has been confirmed to be present by the people behind the show. The presence of UST in Buffy and Spike's early interactions wasn't intentionally put there, but it was nevertheless there, once we - as an audience - had a reason to see it for what it was.

This is a conceit I've never understood in fiction and maybe it's because I haven't had the experiences others have had in life - why, so often in fiction, do people go from hating each other to being sexually excited by one another? The same thing happened with Xander and Cordelia and in that episode of "The Simpsons" where Lisa and her future fiancée quickly go from bitterly arguing and insulting each other to making out in about twenty seconds. In those examples, it was done for comedy, so I didn't mind how ridiculous it was, but with Buffy and Spike we were supposed to take seriously a real relationship developing from that starting point. That rang false to me. I don't know...in real life, when myself and another person have been angrily arguing or insulting one another, we've never secretly wanted to rip each other's clothes off and smooch. Does that make me abnormal?

It doesn't make you 'abnormal', but it does make me want to ask whether or not you're generally one of those people who prefers nonfiction over fiction, since it certainly seems like it to me.

 

[RoJoHen]

There are several in-universe explanations for Buffy's behavior throughout the course of Season 6; you just don't seem to want to accept them. Buffy's conversation with Tara is one, as is her conversation with the vamp (forgot his name) in 'Conversations with Dead People'. There's also the inherent darkness of who she is as the Slayer, and her tendency to try and escape her problems and issues in the most superficial of ways (running away from home after the events of 'Becoming', keeping secrets from the people she should've been trusting, etc.).

In fact, Buffy's very last line in "Once More with Feeling" right before she finally kisses Spike is, "This isn't real. I just want to feel." Buffy, whether you like it or not, didn't start sleeping with Spike because she was in love with him. She did it because she had felt dead inside ever since she returned from the grave. I don't think she did it to feel love or happiness. She just did it to feel something! Even if that something was disgust (which we learn she did feel from her conversation with Tara), at least she could still feel.

Even so, what did with Spike eventually grew into something more. He was there for her when she needed him, and even though it started as a very superficial thing, it became more than that.

But it's not like they both fell in love and started openly dating each other. Buffy still had reservations about the whole thing, even when she found out Spike had gotten his soul back. Buffy said, "I love you" in "Chosen," but would she have even bothered if Spike wasn't about to die? If Spike wasn't sacrificing himself, how long would it have taken for her to openly admit those feelings?

I think people who hate the Buffy/Spike relationship tend to misremember it. At no point in the 7 years that the show was on were Buffy and Spike a happy couple.

 

[doubleohfive]

There are several in-universe explanations for Buffy's behavior throughout the course of Season 6; you just don't seem to want to accept them. Buffy's conversation with Tara is one, as is her conversation with the vamp (forgot his name) in 'Conversations with Dead People'. There's also the inherent darkness of who she is as the Slayer, and her tendency to try and escape her problems and issues in the most superficial of ways (running away from home after the events of 'Becoming', keeping secrets from the people she should've been trusting, etc.).

In fact, Buffy's very last line in "Once More with Feeling" right before she finally kisses Spike is, "This isn't real. I just want to feel." Buffy, whether you like it or not, didn't start sleeping with Spike because she was in love with him. She did it because she had felt dead inside ever since she returned from the grave. I don't think she did it to feel love or happiness. She just did it to feel something! Even if that something was disgust (which we learn she did feel from her conversation with Tara), at least she could still feel.

Even so, what did with Spike eventually grew into something more. He was there for her when she needed him, and even though it started as a very superficial thing, it became more than that.

But it's not like they both fell in love and started openly dating each other. Buffy still had reservations about the whole thing, even when she found out Spike had gotten his soul back. Buffy said, "I love you" in "Chosen," but would she have even bothered if Spike wasn't about to die? If Spike wasn't sacrificing himself, how long would it have taken for her to openly admit those feelings?

I think people who hate the Buffy/Spike relationship tend to misremember it. At no point in the 7 years that the show was on were Buffy and Spike a happy couple.

Excellent points, all. It's been my experience here that there are just too many literal-thinking, closed-minded, judgmental people who populate these kinds of threads and can't (or won't) allow for that kind of open-ended, nuanced thought process while analyzing these kinds of things. That's not to say there isn't value in what they have to say, only that the typical BBS nerd posting persona tends to preclude this kind of interaction in any kind of academic or thoughtful way.

 

[DevilEyes]

Boo Much Fun: UST means "unresolved sexual tension". It's a very common trope in fiction. There's also a quite common subtrope of belligerent sexual tension.

And if you can't connect this to real life... didn't you ever see boys in school pulling the pigtails on girls they actually have a crush on? Honestly, some of Buffy/Spike interactions, in season 4 in particular, came off looking as a more extreme version of two kids picking on each other in the playground.

(Cut to Giles' bathroom. Buffy is sitting on the end of the bathtub in which Spike is chained up)
Buffy: (Exasperated) So..you saw their faces but you can't describe them.
Spike: (Playing coy) Well, they were human. Two eyes each, kind of in the middle.
Buffy: Uh huh. And the lab?
Spike: Underground. I came out through an air vent. I don't know exactly where. I'm done. Put the telly on.
(Giles enters, carrying a mug that reads "Kiss the Librarian" with a straw protruding from it. It contains blood)
Spike: It's about time. Hope you got it warm enough.
(Giles hands it to Buffy without saying a word. She takes it, sighs, and makes a face as she puts it close enough to Spike that he can suck through the straw. He makes a big to do out of it, so as to disgust her more.)
Spike: I don't know why you're so dainty all of a sudden. You've done this for Angel — you must have.
(Buffy pulls the mug away, leaving Spike with the straw dangling from between his lips)
Spike: Hey! Give it!
Buffy: Okay, that's it. The invalid amnesiac routine is over. The kitchen is closed until you can tell me something useful about the commandos.
Spike: I'm tryin' to remember. It was very traumatic.
Buffy: How long are you going to pull this crap?
Spike: How long am I going to live once I tell you?
Giles: Look, look, Spike — we have no intention of killing a harmless.. uh, creature.. but we have to know what's been done to you. We can't let you go until we're sure that you're .. impotent —
Spike: Hey!
Giles: Sorry, poor choice of words. Until we're sure you're, you're..
Buffy: Flaccid?
Spike: You are one step away, missy.
Buffy: (Sarcastically) Giles, help! He's going to scold me.
(Spike growls, trying to grab Buffy, but the chains hold him and only make his struggles comical)
Buffy: You know what? I don't think you want us to let you go. Maybe we made it a little too comfy in here for ya.
Spike: Comfy? I'm chained in a bathtub drinkin' pig's blood from a novelty mug. Doesn't rank huge in the Zagut's Guide.
Buffy: You want something nicer? (She leans her head to the side, exposing her throat to him) A look at my.. poor neck? All bare and tender and exposed.. all that blood just .. pumping away..
(Spike, by this time, is all but licking his lips)
Giles: Oh, please.
Spike: Giles, make her stop.
(Giles walks out of the bathroom and into the living room, speaking to Willow who's reading through some books)
Giles: If those two don't kill each other, I might lend a hand.
(4.9 "Something Blue")

Buffy: Okay, drop the act..
(She grabs him by the arm, but he pushes her away)
Spike: Get off!
Buffy: Okay, that's it— I'm gonna gag you.
(He punches her in the nose, then yells in pain. She punches him back in the nose; he yells in pain again. Cut to Giles in his bathroom. He's putting drops in his eyes. Buffy and Spike come barging in through the front door, Spike once again tied up)
Spike: Hey! Watch it!
Buffy: One more word out of you, and I swear..
Spike: Swear, what? You're not gonna do anything to me. You don't got the stones.
Buffy: Oh, I got the stones. I got a whole bunch of .. stones.
Spike: Yeah? You're all talk.
Buffy: GILES! I accidentally killed Spike. That's okay, right?
(4.9 "Something Blue")

AMANDA
Do people ever think you're weird?
BUFFY
Um, (flutters eyelashes, shrugs) I guess. Sure, in a charming, endearing, loveable... Yeah.
AMANDA
I feel like people think I'm weird, and so they pick on me. But I might be—weird.
BUFFY
(chuckles) Amanda, why do you think that you're weird?
AMANDA
One of the boys who picks on me, I kind of—See, if a guy picks on you, is it weird to think he's cute?
BUFFY
(grins uncomfortably, leans back in her chair) Oh.. (sighs)
AMANDA
It's just, the last few times I've seen him, I've wanted to, you know, pick on him....extra. More.
BUFFY
(stifles a laugh) Uh-huh.
AMANDA
The thing is, I can't tell. My mom says when a guy teases you, it means he likes you.
BUFFY
(nods) Sometimes that's true.
AMANDA
Is it weird? We're mean to each other, and we like each other.
BUFFY
Well, it depends. Sometimes that's how people relate. Being mean to each other. Even mortal enemies— (increasingly emphatic) Then with the— And that leads to no good, absolutely no good. And much confusion. A-and then it's over. Absolutely, seriously, definitely over. And that's confusing too. The over part. Which it is. Over! (catches herself, calms a bit) So, maybe.
(7.12 "Potential")

* As DevilEyes pointed out, there is absolutely no on-screen evidence to support the idea that Buffy ever learned the full truth about Spike's human life and the circumstances that led to the careful construction of his current personality and persona. I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Buffy does feel Spike is beneath her, particularly prior to the events of Season 6, but the idea that this was based on some intimate knowledge of his human past as William was never ever stated or even implied on-screen.

Yeah, I admitted that I just assumed Buffy had heard the story, because I don't remember the later seasons very well and thought that having heard the story was the only logical way Buffy could know the exact words that could hurt him most. And I still think the fact that the writers put those words in her mouth without her knowing the story is way too coincidental to seem natural and really stretches plausibility.

Um, it is a show about vampires, demons and witches, you know.

The writers enjoyed playing with the "beneath you" phrase, especially in season 7, when it gained a whole new meaning, as the designation for First Evil: "From beneath you, it devours" which gave a double meaning to the title second episode of season 7 "Beneath You", which was both about Buffy/Spike and about the First Evil, Buffy actually hears Spike use the phrase "from beneath you, it devours". At the beginning of S7, Buffy finds Spike, deranged and manipulated by the First, in the basement of the Sunnydale high school, literally in the underground, "beneath". Ironically, in their last scene together in the series, in the finale, she is literally beneath him while he's starting to burn, destroying the Hellmouth.

It's not Spike's attraction to Buffy that I find absurd and have trouble understanding, it's her willingness to indulge him at all. There was a lot of time spent with her rejecting and mocking his affections and all of that made sense to me. There were times when it was entertaining and (like the "beneath me" line) also times when it made me like Buffy less because I felt she was being way too cruel, but at least it always made sense.

Let's go back to something I said in response to you a couple of pages back. You really didn't get the impression that Buffy was written and acted as "protesting too much"?

For instance: didn't it ever seem strange to you that Buffy only decided to revoke Spike's invitation to the Summers house in "Crush" after she learned he was in love with her... even though she had never done it in the preceding 2 and a half years (since the season 2 finale, when they teemed up to save the world)? Remember, during that time, he was without a chip, able to kill and hurt anyone he wanted; she found him in her house, drinking hot chocolate with her mother (season 3 "Lover's Walk); he tried to kill her again (season 4, "The Harsh Light of Day") and he was without a chip that time. Then he tried to kill her again (season 5, "Out of My Mind"), but couldn't because of the chip. Then he told her she had a death wish and talked about killing the two previous Slayers, and that he would kill her one day when she slips ("Fool for Love"). In all that time, she never considered him enough of a threat to revoke the invitation? But then he tells her he is in love with her, and suddenly she is completely freaked out - and immediately asks Willow to un-invite Spike? How does that make any sense? Xander laughed when he learned about Spike's feelings for Buffy, because he thought Spike had no chance in hell with a girl like Buffy. But Buffy herself was horrified. Why? What could a chipped Spike in love do to her, that a chipped Spike who hated her couldn't (let alone a non-chipped Spike who hated her)? Why would his love be scarier than his earlier attempts to kill her?

The only possible reason I can think of is if she did feel some twisted attraction for him and was afraid that she could reciprocate in some way.

When she cries to Tara and her friends all have disgusted reactions to finding out about them, I felt like saying, "yeah, tell that to the writers!".

Actually, Buffy herself expected her friends to be far more disgusted than they turned out to be. Tara was very understanding and non-judgmental, Willow was OK with it, so was Dawn (who always liked Spike anyway), and the only one who had the predicted disgusted reaction was Xander - which was hardly surprising, but also very hypocritical, since he had dated and almost married an ex-demon who had been killing and torturing people for a thousand years, and hadn't expressed any remorse for it at all.

Tara (a gay woman) even used the words "You're not ready to come out yet?" in describing Buffy's dilemma whether to tell her friends about her secret relationship.

By that point, however, Buffy and Spike being a couple would just be a retread of Buffy and Angel, so I still didn't like it.

It wasn't a retread of Buffy/Angel, as much as a the upside down version of it, with as many contrasts as parallels. Buffy starts off idealizing Angel, blind to his dark side; they have a tender romantic teenage love; they have sex, he loses his soul, she gets to see the monster that was inside that man all along. (But keeps denying it; no, the man and the monster are two completely different beings - "my boyfriend" and "demon wearing his face" - right? So it doesn't reflect on her... because she was only attracted to the good man - right?... not to his dark past or the danger , as Faith suggested in season 3, which really angered Buffy...) Buffy starts off hating Spike, aware only of his monstrous side; she only gradually starts to see the man that was inside this monster all along, but seems to oscillate between seeing him as one or the other - and even seems unsure to which of the two she is more attracted; they have a dark, destructive adult sexual relationship that ends badly; unlike Angel, who lost his soul as a result of his relationship with Buffy, Spike gets his soul back. There are, of course, still plenty of similarities - like the way she protected and saved Angel in season 2 and took care of him in season 3, and the way she did the same for Spike in season 7, and the fact that she ends up losing them both. But it never going to be the same story, because the naive, bubbly teenage girl Buffy, eager for romance, wearing her heart on her sleeve, was a very different person from the adult, hardened, emotionally closed woman we see in season 6 and 7, burdened with responsability and scarred from too much pain, who found it very hard to connect with people and express any emotion.

 

[Too Much Fun]

* As myself and DevilEyes already pointed out, there was a great deal of UST - unresolved sexual tension - between Buffy and Spike stretching as far back as Season 2, which invalidates and disproves the idea that their relationship came from out of nowhere.

I didn't use the word 'lust' in the comment you quoted; I used the abbreviation 'UST', and if you can't see behind their superficial early interactions with each other and come to the correct conclusion about what lies beneath said interactions (unresolved sexual tension), there's really nothing I can do for you.

You still haven't given examples of this "sexual tension", but even if you did, we probably wouldn't agree on them. Some people see the same things but don't think they mean the same thing. Nothing can be done about that. Okay, I wasn't familiar with your acronym. I assumed it was a typo of 'lust'.

You don't seem to be either a writer or an otherwise very creative person, because using coincidence and 'cyclical writing' to convey narrative is something that is very widespread in creative literature.

Well no, I'm not officially a writer, but I think I know a little something about writing since I majored in literature in university, which entailed a lot of writing and studying writing. I know what the writers were doing, I just think they had a very sloppy way of doing it.

There are several in-universe explanations for Buffy's behavior throughout the course of Season 6; you just don't seem to want to accept them. Buffy's conversation with Tara is one, as is her conversation with the vamp (forgot his name) in 'Conversations with Dead People'. There's also the inherent darkness of who she is as the Slayer, and her tendency to try and escape her problems and issues in the most superficial of ways (running away from home after the events of 'Becoming', keeping secrets from the people she should've been trusting, etc.).

Yes, I am aware of the explanations. I remember all of the times when Buffy said to Spike and others that she was using him just to feel. The problem isn't that I don't accept their existence, it's that I find them unsatisfactory and unconvincing. It is a really jarring change in Buffy's character, a much darker turn for it. Clearly many people were willing to go with it, but I wasn't. I'm all for characters growing and changing as a show progresses, but in this case, I didn't like the change and I didn't find it realistic.

DevilEyes, myself, and others aren't 'interpreting' anything; we accept what is staring us straight in the face, and what has been confirmed to be present by the people behind the show. The presence of UST in Buffy and Spike's early interactions wasn't intentionally put there, but it was nevertheless there, once we - as an audience - had a reason to see it for what it was.

Again, me, the writers of the show, and you are definitely seeing something, but we differ on how to define it. There was undoubtedly something between Buffy and Spike that was unexpected and intriguing, I think through a combination of the writing and the performances, but I feel calling it more than 'chemistry', like the chemistry of comedy duo or a great pairing of hero and villain is too much. Just because it's a man and a woman doesn't mean the chemistry has to be sexual or romantic.

I would not deny that there was chemistry between Buffy and Spike or Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters for that matter, but I didn't think taking things in a sexual or romantic direction was the right way to exploit that and the way it paid off over several seasons bothered me.

It doesn't make you 'abnormal', but it does make me want to ask whether or not you're generally one of those people who prefers nonfiction over fiction, since it certainly seems like it to me.

I will admit to this slightly. It's not necessarily that I dislike fiction, it's just that I am extremely picky with the conventions of fiction. Actually, when it comes to reading, I prefer to read biographies and stories that are closer to real life than downright fantasy like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. I prefer fiction in movies (not very interested in documentaries), but when it comes to movies and television, I get extremely annoyed when writers use conventions like coincidence and tragedy as a crutch to make stories more sensational, instead of organically and sparingly. If these things are going to be done, I prefer that they're done with subtlety and restraint.

I think "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" season six is a good example of some of my pet peeves in fiction writing like 'darkness for darkness sake'. I agreed somewhat with the person who earlier said that their seemed to be an overabundance of this whole 'relationships can't ever work out' approach, but I didn't want to totally support the Marti Noxon bashing because I thought the way she handled the break-ups between Riley and Buffy and Willow and Oz was very impressive. I think the problems in those relationships were very plausible and true-to-life (despite the supernatural elements involved) and the conversations through which they discussed their issues were relevant.

In terms of writing, though, I thought the Buffy and Spike relationship was a mess. The only thing I liked about it was some of Spike's tender dialog, which as I said was stuff I felt works out of context, but is undermined by the fundamental wrongness of that relationship as a whole.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Haha, I'm in the middle of replying to one person's rebuttals and someone else is posting a whole set of new ones. I need a break. A little back-up would be appreciated too.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

First off, Joss' level of direct involvement in a given season of Buffy is and never was an automatic indicator of the quality of said season(s) as perceived by the fandom at large. If you don't believe me, take a look at the prevailing fandom opinion of Season 4; it is as widely decried by the fandom at large as Season 6 is. Joss didn't actually step down as showrunner of BtVS until 2 seasons later, however, which invalidates/disproves your argument that it was his lack of direct involvement in Season 6 which caused that season to be negatively perceived by a large portion of the fandom.

Second, if Marti Noxon is/was solely to blame for the prevailing perceived crappiness of Season 6, please explain to me how Season 7 - on which she also served as showrunner - can be viewed by the fandom at large in an overall positive light. Granted, it isn't viewed by the fandom as positively as Seasons 2, 3, and 5, but it is viewed positively, in contrast to the prevailing negative opinion of Seasons 6 and (as mentioned above) 4.

I would dispute your assessments about the general fan perceptions of Seasons 4, 6, & 7. In my experience, Season 7 is regarded just as badly as Season 6, although for somewhat different reasons. Season 6 is criticized for lacking a significant exterior threat for our heroes. Season 7 had the First Evil, which was theoretically the most dangerous villain they ever fought. Unfortunately, it seemed thoroughly ineffective. It was telepathic and could manifest itself to anyone as any dead person at any time. It should have easily been able to drive all of the Scoobies insane. Instead, it was kind of an idiot. (It’s amazing to think that Angelus caused more psychological damage while trapped in a cell during the “Soulless”/”Calvary” 2-parter than the First caused over an entire season.)

As for Season 4, I think it’s terribly underrated. But even at its worst, it mostly just elicits a “Meh” from the fandom, whereas Season 6 elicits an “Eeeeewwwwww!!!!!”

Angel still very much viewed himself as a monster - even with a soul - which, from a certain point of view, makes DevilEyes' point of refutation - concerning CaptMurdoch's assertion that Buffy 'sleeping with monsters' completely disqualified her from being a credible heroine - 100% valid.

Angel had personal issues regarding his self-image. He may have thought that he was a monster, but with a soul he is no more a monster than most humans with a troubled past. He owned his guilt. That not only made him not a monster; it's what made him a hero. Remember, prior to becoming a vampire, Liam was pretty worthless. Only by experiencing evil as Angelus could Angel understand why evil was worth fighting against.

In fact, Buffy's very last line in "Once More with Feeling" right before she finally kisses Spike is, "This isn't real. I just want to feel." Buffy, whether you like it or not, didn't start sleeping with Spike because she was in love with him. She did it because she had felt dead inside ever since she returned from the grave. I don't think she did it to feel love or happiness. She just did it to feel something! Even if that something was disgust (which we learn she did feel from her conversation with Tara), at least she could still feel.

Yeah, but self-loathing TV protagonists are difficult to watch (unless it's Curb Your Enthusiasm).

 

[DevilEyes]

I am guessing that this "fandom" (also known as "fans at large') is some sort of hive mind, like the Borg Collective? Could any of you point me to the websites where I can find the Fandom's manifestos about its opinions of seasons of BtVS?

 

[RoJoHen]

In fact, Buffy's very last line in "Once More with Feeling" right before she finally kisses Spike is, "This isn't real. I just want to feel." Buffy, whether you like it or not, didn't start sleeping with Spike because she was in love with him. She did it because she had felt dead inside ever since she returned from the grave. I don't think she did it to feel love or happiness. She just did it to feel something! Even if that something was disgust (which we learn she did feel from her conversation with Tara), at least she could still feel.

Yeah, but self-loathing TV protagonists are difficult to watch (unless it's Curb Your Enthusiasm).

I'm not arguing that it was good or bad. That's obviously up to you to decide. I was just arguing that Buffy's actions made sense given her situation.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Yeah. Unlike others in this thread, I'm not arguing that the motivations in Season 6 didn't make sense. I just think the writers shouldn't have gone there.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well, unfortunately for you, they did go there.