Buffy fans: Why was Adam received so harshly?

[DS9Continuing]

It's too bad the series didn't work out as planned, where Walsh was the Big Bad and Adam was just her henchman. The actress quit the show halfway through the season leading to her abrupt death.

I always hear people say this, but is there actually any evidence of it? I have never yet heard anything that proves to me this is actually the case rather than just a viewer's rationalisation for why they didn't like it. Point me to somewhere this is actually said by someone involved with the show, and I might believe you.

Mr Trick was supposed to be the Big Bad in season 3, but the Mayor was more fun to them, so they adapted.

Similarly - what? I have never heard anything to this effect, and I flat out don't believe it. The fact is that the Mayor was being threaded in at the end of season 2, with reaction shots from Snyder that suggested how unpleasant he was, so he was already being built up as the Big Bad of season 3 that early. In fact, Buffy made a habit of suggesting the next year's Big Bad during the current year every single season.

Trick was used to distract the viewer with the thought that he was probably the Big Bad, so that the Mayor creeping up on us wouldn't be so obvious. But that is not the same thing as Trick actually being intended as the Big Bad all along.

But also Buffy worked best in High School

Another thing people always say. But I can't help notice that all the episodes people hold up as examples of Buffy's brilliance come from after the high-school era. "Hush," "Restless," "The Body," "Once More with Feeling"... every one of them after high school. It took breaking out of that restrictive high school model for the show to really reach the heights it was capable of.

It was a transitional year from the high school years, to what the show became later on. Of course the transition will feel kind of awkward. It was awkward for the characters, too.

That last point is exactly what makes it perfectly fine with me. I like when the characters are feeling the same things the audience are about the events happening on the show - it makes the whole thing feel more realistic.

For example, I would have been happier with Voyager if they had actually addressed in plots and dialogue that Janeway had a tendency to be inconsistent with her decisions, or that Chakotay had become a useless seat warmer. But they just carried on unheeding of their own issues. You cannot ever claim that Buffy is guilty of that.

After all, they started up new military units to deal with supernatural threats not all that long after, showing they hadn't really learned anything...

Oh, they'd been at it a lot longer than that. Look at Angel season 5 episode "Why We Fight" - an organization known as the Demon Research Initiative was up and around in the '50s.

Yeh was a little deus ex machina for me but it did give us that wonderful and WTF finale episode - oh and that Cheese Man.

The deus ex machina ending didn't help.

And this is another thing that always gets on my tits. Why is it a deus ex machina to combine the Slayerettes into a combo-Buffy? The final solution to any season-long arc is never revealed until the season finale - and usually until about 10 minutes before that solution is used. So why does this one get flack?

The fact is that this situation is exactly what the entire season had been building to. The character arc of the season had been about the Scoobs splintering as group - finding new groups to hang out with, keeping secrets from each other, not being the close unit they were. Adam was the perfect counterpoint to that - a creature who was literally made out of the parts of other people. That's why combining the four Scoobies into one unit was vital thematically to the season - bringing them all back together again both literally and figuratively because they're stronger together than apart.

 

[Mr Light]

I also read that Trick was supposed to have a larger role. I can't remember if the actor quit the show or they decided the character wasn't working, but I dimly recall that he was supposed to kill and replace the Mayor as the Big Bad (kinda like Adam did to Walsh) but the Mayor ended up working so much better instead.

 

[The Borg Queen]

He was a mess. A mish-mash of scrapings form the bottom of the monster-barrel.

 

[I am not Spock]

The fact is that this situation is exactly what the entire season had been building to. The character arc of the season had been about the Scoobs splintering as group - finding new groups to hang out with, keeping secrets from each other, not being the close unit they were. Adam was the perfect counterpoint to that - a creature who was literally made out of the parts of other people. That's why combining the four Scoobies into one unit was vital thematically to the season - bringing them all back together again both literally and figuratively because they're stronger together than apart.

Exactly. Love this analysis. That's exactly what season four was about. The fracturing of the group. Xander feeling cut off coz he is not at college, and has no direction in life. Buffy feeling like a fish out of water at uni, and missing Angel. Willow feels cut off because of her relationship with Tara, and how she thinks the group will judge her. Spike, of course, is no longer able to kill things, and feels a loss of identity, and attempts suicide. Giles feels useless after he lost his job, and his neccessity as Buffy's watcher.

Season four was about transitions, and loss of a group. The conclusion made perfect sense, how the big 4 characters got together again.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

The fact is that this situation is exactly what the entire season had been building to. The character arc of the season had been about the Scoobs splintering as group - finding new groups to hang out with, keeping secrets from each other, not being the close unit they were. Adam was the perfect counterpoint to that - a creature who was literally made out of the parts of other people. That's why combining the four Scoobies into one unit was vital thematically to the season - bringing them all back together again both literally and figuratively because they're stronger together than apart.

wow, i didnt think of it like that.

great man!

 

[Kelthaz]

The fact is that this situation is exactly what the entire season had been building to. The character arc of the season had been about the Scoobs splintering as group - finding new groups to hang out with, keeping secrets from each other, not being the close unit they were. Adam was the perfect counterpoint to that - a creature who was literally made out of the parts of other people. That's why combining the four Scoobies into one unit was vital thematically to the season - bringing them all back together again both literally and figuratively because they're stronger together than apart.

I agree with you that combining the powers of the four Scoobies to defeat Adam was thematically important to the season, but it isn't the concept that turns the spell into a deus ex machina. The problem is that Buffy was given an eleventh hour power that allows her to defeat the immensely powerful Adam without effort resulting in a deus ex machina of epic proportions. Yeah, it happens all the time in Power Rangers, but I expect better writing on Buffy. It's such an easy problem to fix too.

After the spell is performed and Buffy is imbued with the powers of her friends she is made stronger putting her on nearly equal footing with Adam. She still has to struggle to beat him and it's a close fight, but she manages to succeed because of the powers of her friends. There's nothing wrong with the spell in theory, but giving Buffy the power to kill Adam as easily as Mario stomps a Goomba was not a good idea.

 

[saturn5]

The fact is that this situation is exactly what the entire season had been building to. The character arc of the season had been about the Scoobs splintering as group - finding new groups to hang out with, keeping secrets from each other, not being the close unit they were. Adam was the perfect counterpoint to that - a creature who was literally made out of the parts of other people. That's why combining the four Scoobies into one unit was vital thematically to the season - bringing them all back together again both literally and figuratively because they're stronger together than apart.

I agree with you that combining the powers of the four Scoobies to defeat Adam was thematically important to the season, but it isn't the concept that turns the spell into a deus ex machina. The problem is that Buffy was given an eleventh hour power that allows her to defeat the immensely powerful Adam without effort resulting in a deus ex machina of epic proportions. Yeah, it happens all the time in Power Rangers, but I expect better writing on Buffy. It's such an easy problem to fix too.

After the spell is performed and Buffy is imbued with the powers of her friends she is made stronger putting her on nearly equal footing with Adam. She still has to struggle to beat him and it's a close fight, but she manages to succeed because of the powers of her friends. There's nothing wrong with the spell in theory, but giving Buffy the power to kill Adam as easily as Mario stomps a Goomba was not a good idea.

Ah but it's paid off in the next ep, there's always a price to pay for magic as we see in Bargaining, A New World, Superstar etc

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

i guess adam's weakness was that he didn't understand magic

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

ii just watched a scene where Adam says to a couple vamps, "you fear death? being immortal you fear it more than to whom it comes naturally." wouldn't vamps be more afraid of death since they'd have more to lose? i mean they could live for thousands of years, while a human can only live for 60-70.

 

[RoJoHen]

while a human can only live for 60-70.

Well, that's a depressing life-expectancy.

 

[Forbin]

I only have 6 years to go?!

 

[saturn5]

ii just watched a scene where Adam says to a couple vamps, "you fear death? being immortal you fear it more than to whom it comes naturally." wouldn't vamps be more afraid of death since they'd have more to lose? i mean they could live for thousands of years, while a human can only live for 60-70.

It's a good point, vamps can live forever but it's empty and meaningless, humans get their four score years and ten and then enjoy their big desert at the end of the meal

 

[exodus]

ii just watched a scene where Adam says to a couple vamps, "you fear death? being immortal you fear it more than to whom it comes naturally." wouldn't vamps be more afraid of death since they'd have more to lose? i mean they could live for thousands of years, while a human can only live for 60-70.

It's a good point, vamps can live forever but it's empty and meaningless, humans get their four score years and ten and then enjoy their big desert at the end of the meal

Seeing how vampires are a demons, I'm not sure they'd consider the evil they cause to be empty & meaningless. It's kinda their purpose and what defines them.

 

[saturn5]

ii just watched a scene where Adam says to a couple vamps, "you fear death? being immortal you fear it more than to whom it comes naturally." wouldn't vamps be more afraid of death since they'd have more to lose? i mean they could live for thousands of years, while a human can only live for 60-70.

It's a good point, vamps can live forever but it's empty and meaningless, humans get their four score years and ten and then enjoy their big desert at the end of the meal

Seeing how vampires are a demons, I'm not sure they'd consider the evil they cause to be empty & meaningless. It's kinda their purpose and what defines them.

But I'm talking from their human side, they don't know any better, they're like blind people who don't know what the world really looks like

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

ii just watched a scene where Adam says to a couple vamps, "you fear death? being immortal you fear it more than to whom it comes naturally." wouldn't vamps be more afraid of death since they'd have more to lose? i mean they could live for thousands of years, while a human can only live for 60-70.

It's a good point, vamps can live forever but it's empty and meaningless, humans get their four score years and ten and then enjoy their big desert at the end of the meal

what do you mean? are you saying that humans do not fear death because they go to heaven??? adam never mentions heaven.

i guess i'm trying to say is vamps would have more to lose when they die than humans simply because they live so long. it would be like saying a billionaire like donald trump has more to fear if he were to lose all his money than a homeless guy who only has $20 in his pocket.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

bump

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

ok, i just re-watched the scene where adam says 'i have a gift, no man has, no demon has ever had.' and he says it's that 'he knows why he's here' and why he was created.

i dunno, didn't seem like a big gift to me? i guess it's an intangible gift.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

was is the only one that thought the idea of the initiative was awesome?

i'm trying to find the first time we see the soldiers in the background.

 

[Forbin]

Yeah, you are.

The whole concept was fairly ludicrous. A military unit to study the supernatural could have existed in secret with a full-time staff that did NOT use secret identities that occupied 50% of their waking hours.

That's the part that made no sense to me - why disguise your agents as college kids and a college professor, both of whom need as much time as possible just to do those things? When did Maggie work on her curriculum? When did Riley have time to grade papers AND do his courses? When did they sleep?!

Why have a secret entrance in a dorm and then have parties? Plenty of secret government labs are just in plain ol' office buildings. Nobody knows what goes on in there, and there's no risk of a drunk teenage girl finding the secret elevator.

When did the government excavate the huge underground complex underneath an active college? It clearly hadn't been there a year bofore; our gang would have noticed the soldiers and disappearing demons.

Was Maggie a military officer? No one ever called her anything other than "professor," yet she clearly had some kind of command responsibilities and people followed her orders.

It was just a mess.

 

[cultcross]

Yeah, you are.

The whole concept was fairly ludicrous. A military unit to study the supernatural could have existed in secret with a full-time staff that did NOT use secret identities that occupied 50% of their waking hours.

That's the part that made no sense to me - why disguise your agents as college kids and a college professor, both of whom need as much time as possible just to do those things? When did Maggie work on her curriculum? When did Riley have time to grade papers AND do his courses? When did they sleep?!

Why have a secret entrance in a dorm and then have parties? Plenty of secret government labs are just in plain ol' office buildings. Nobody knows what goes on in there, and there's no risk of a drunk teenage girl finding the secret elevator.

When did the government excavate the huge underground complex underneath an active college? It clearly hadn't been there a year bofore; our gang would have noticed the soldiers and disappearing demons.

Was Maggie a military officer? No one ever called her anything other than "professor," yet she clearly had some kind of command responsibilities and people followed her orders.

It was just a mess.

Indeed. It was a rather lame attempt to recreate the 'tie' to the college environment that the Hellmouth provided to the High School and I really don't think it worked well. Joss has admitted in interview on several occasions that he doesn't know the first thing about the military, and it does show in the way the Initiative were set up. Riley was "Special Agent" and Forrest was "Agent" and Riley outranked him, yet he regularly referred to himself as a "soldier". Maggie, as you said, is just called "professor" and yet seems to outrank everyone.

Also, Spike being 'Hostile 17' implies the thing hasn't been going on very long at all, but from it seems a completely established unit.

The idea of the Initiative - the government tryign to take on monster fighting - is sound, and follows naturally from the approach in seasons 1-3 where the local government, police etc know exactly what's going on in Sunnydale but cover it up.
But what didn't work was the set up of an enormous secret base underneath the college, soldiers posing as college students (or was it the other way around, I never understood that?), and ray guns.