Bryan Singer is directing X-MEN: FIRST CLASS!

[Captaindemotion]

whatever about her personal popularity within the African-American community.

I think this speaks for itself as too why I found you dismissive.

Once again, Halle Berry was a big draw to the X-Men due to her popularity in the African-American community, which in turn drew in a larger crowd due to her appeal to that audience.

If it's all about green as you say, then FOX studios did their homework by considering that. Thus pulling in a community that normally isn't drawn heavily to sci-fi/fantasy type films. In turn making more money for the X-Men film franchiese.

Exodus, it was not my intention to be dismissive of your community and I apologise if that's how that sentence seemed. I don't think it should be read that way when taken in context of the rest of my post but if it did, I'm sorry. But my point is, whatever her popularity as a person and an icon within that community, it doesn't appear to have been reflected in the box office takings of her pre X-Men movies. Not one of them was a substantial hit, apart from The Flintstones (and she only got that role when the original choice of Sharon Stone pulled out) and Executive Decision, which was hardly 'A Halle Berry movie.'

Indeed, by your rationale, Catwoman, which was the first time a black woman played the lead in a solo superhero movie, should have been a big hit, but it was a flop. So much for appealing to a larger than usual crowd.

The fact remains that the X-Men script always featured a black female character in Storm. Storm was always going to be played by a black actress, most likely an African-American one. Did it really have to be Halle Berry before the African-American community got interested in the movie? I genuinely don't think that HB would have proved any bigger a draw than, say, Angela Bassett, who at that stage was a more proven leading lady and had an Oscar nomination under her belt for playing Tina Turner (herself an iconic figure) or the pop star Brandy, who was also highly mooted in the rumour mill at the time of casting. Berry was much less known than them. I've no reason to doubt that she would have gotten more attention than a complete unknown but she was not a box office draw in the way that Julia Roberts or Sandra Bullock would have been in 2000.

You also may be giving too much credit to Fox in the way that the movie was cast. Fox had very little interest in this movie and was totally unsupportive of it, being rather surprised when it proved a hit. Halle was cast by Bryan Singer, not Fox executives. To be fair to Singer, I think he has always cast who he believes to be best in a role, not who will be the biggest box office draw or who will appeal to what demographic. Hence we got an unknown Wolverine and an unknown Superman in his movies. Do you think he was going 'Right, I'll get Ian McKellen in to attract the gays, Patrick Stewart to pull in the bald community (to quote Larry David), Famke Janssen & Rebecca Romjin to sell it in Holland and Tyler Mane to get the mullet-wearers'? Nope. He liked Halle for Storm. End of.

 

[Broccoli]

^ Well, I know all my friends with mullets went to see X-Men for Tyler Mane...

 

[DarKush]

I would equate Halle Berry's career to Daniel Craig's.

I would say before X-Men, which brought her to a larger audience, she was considered to be a good actress, but did films with very specific target audiences and were not all that mainstream. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, but I would argue that if you went up to the average person walking down the street and asked them who Halle Berry was at that time, they would go "Who?" Once X-Men hit, along with Monster's Ball (and to a lesser extent Swordfish), she became a household name.

Much like Daniel Craig. He was a good actor in several well-regarded films such as Road to Perdition, Munich, and Layer Cake. However, those really were not mainstream features and/or hits. Also before Bond, if you were to go up to the average person on the street and ask them about Daniel Craig, they would go "Who?"

That doesn't mean Halle Berry wasn't popular in various circles, she just didn't hit the mainstream celebrity status until after 2000/2001.

Actually I think Halle had a higher profile than you might realize. She had a base in the African American community with movies like Queen, Jungle Fever, Boomerang, etc, but she was already in mainstream (i.e. white) films like Flintstones, Executive Decision, Losing Isiah, Rich Man's Wife, The Last Boyscout, etc., before X-Men. She was also one of the Revlon models and the marriage to David Justice got her a lot of notice as well. The X-films might've put her over into superstar status but she was a rising star before them. I can't say the same for Daniel Craig. He was a well respected actor pre-Bond, but I think more Americans would've known Halle over him in the 90s, before their respective big blockbuster turns.

 

[Broccoli]

I am not dismissing any of her earlier work, but her profile was exactly what I was thinking. I think my comparison still works. Those films you mentioned, she played either minor roles or was second fiddle. Never a headliner (except in Queen, a tv miniseries and Rich Man's Wife) In addition, those mainstream films (which I would include Boomerang in) were generally poorly received and mostly forgotten. If her star was rising, it was going to quickly fall if she kept picking projects like that. If it wasn't for the back-to-back films of X-Men, Swordfish, and Monster's Ball of Blockbuster films of 2000/2001, she would have plateaued out at a second or third tier actor.

Actually, as I think about this, lets cut the crap. She might have had a strong and loyal fanbase, but it was her boobs in Monster's Ball that brought her to super-star status.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Didn't she receive her Oscar after X-Men and during the X2 production? I seem to recall watching a behind the scenes production documentary on the X2 DVD where it showed Singer and the crew welcoming Halle back after the Oscars and congratulating her on her win.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Besides, aren't the X-Men really freedom fighters for equality more so than superheroes? So they should look like average people gifted/cursed with their abilities than the muscle bound people we expect superheroes to be. I mean people like Cyke, Jean, Logan & Storm are supposed to be able to walk down a city street without drawing any attention to themselves.

If you are trying to draw real life parallels to works of fiction whose primary focus is entertainment then most sci-fi actioners in the last ten years would have been extremely boring. People like to "escape" when watching sci-fi actioners such as the X-men and Star Trek, not think too much into the allegory of what it means to be persecuted for being different. And believe it or not but looks play a great deal in the enjoyment of a movie in the eyes of the general movie-going public.

T'baio, I am not sure if you meant your comment in jest but if you go to any gym you will see a lot of people, male and female, that have similar physiques to what a general muscle bound superhero looks like. My wife's trainer looks like a Greg Land art come to life! And of course two years ago 300 showed how well built a regular actor could be with a few months of hardcore training.

As for casting anyone for the new movie, I'd go for these people:

Cyclops - Matt Bomer

Jean Grey - Cora Skinner

Storm - Angela Basset (if older), Megalyn Echikunwoke(if younger)

Professor Xavier - Faran Tahir

Beast - Kelsey Grammer

Archangel - Travis Fimmel

Iceman - John Francis Daley

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[Broccoli]

Re: Admiral Young:

It was something like that. I know she got it right around the time of Die Another Day (I don't remember when those awards shows air).

 

[JacksonArcher]

This thread has certainly been busy in my absence.

 

[Broccoli]

This thread has certainly been busy in my absence.

This is what happens when you miss meetings.

 

[exodus]

whatever about her personal popularity within the African-American community.

I think this speaks for itself as too why I found you dismissive.

Once again, Halle Berry was a big draw to the X-Men due to her popularity in the African-American community, which in turn drew in a larger crowd due to her appeal to that audience.

If it's all about green as you say, then FOX studios did their homework by considering that. Thus pulling in a community that normally isn't drawn heavily to sci-fi/fantasy type films. In turn making more money for the X-Men film franchiese.

Exodus, it was not my intention to be dismissive of your community and I apologise if that's how that sentence seemed. I don't think it should be read that way when taken in context of the rest of my post but if it did, I'm sorry. But my point is, whatever her popularity as a person and an icon within that community, it doesn't appear to have been reflected in the box office takings of her pre X-Men movies. Not one of them was a substantial hit, apart from The Flintstones (and she only got that role when the original choice of Sharon Stone pulled out) and Executive Decision, which was hardly 'A Halle Berry movie.'

Indeed, by your rationale, Catwoman, which was the first time a black woman played the lead in a solo superhero movie, should have been a big hit, but it was a flop. So much for appealing to a larger than usual crowd.

The fact remains that the X-Men script always featured a black female character in Storm. Storm was always going to be played by a black actress, most likely an African-American one. Did it really have to be Halle Berry before the African-American community got interested in the movie? I genuinely don't think that HB would have proved any bigger a draw than, say, Angela Bassett, who at that stage was a more proven leading lady and had an Oscar nomination under her belt for playing Tina Turner (herself an iconic figure) or the pop star Brandy, who was also highly mooted in the rumour mill at the time of casting. Berry was much less known than them. I've no reason to doubt that she would have gotten more attention than a complete unknown but she was not a box office draw in the way that Julia Roberts or Sandra Bullock would have been in 2000.

You also may be giving too much credit to Fox in the way that the movie was cast. Fox had very little interest in this movie and was totally unsupportive of it, being rather surprised when it proved a hit. Halle was cast by Bryan Singer, not Fox executives. To be fair to Singer, I think he has always cast who he believes to be best in a role, not who will be the biggest box office draw or who will appeal to what demographic. Hence we got an unknown Wolverine and an unknown Superman in his movies. Do you think he was going 'Right, I'll get Ian McKellen in to attract the gays, Patrick Stewart to pull in the bald community (to quote Larry David), Famke Janssen & Rebecca Romjin to sell it in Holland and Tyler Mane to get the mullet-wearers'? Nope. He liked Halle for Storm. End of.

Who said Angela Bassett was interested in playing the role?

You don't have to be in a hit film for the public to know who you are.
Ever heard of Collin Ferrell, Matthew McConaughy or Kevin Costner?
All of them are household names for being in flop after flop after flop.
Yet just like Halle, the star status and sex appeal overshadow all of that and are still cast as headliners in films.

Once again, I think you're missing the point but I'm also not going to continue debating this just to keep hitting a dead end. Others got my point, so that's good enough for me. Yes, I do accept you're apology as well.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ And my point is that Halle had also been in movie after movie before X-Men without ever proving herself a box-office draw. Much like the Farrells, Costners, etc. Which point you continue to gloss over or ignore. But I think we've flogged this horse to the point of rigor mortis.

 

[exodus]

^ And my point is that Halle had also been in movie after movie before X-Men without ever proving herself a box-office draw. Much like the Farrells, Costners, etc. Which point you continue to gloss over or ignore.

Yep, because I'm not going to acknowledge something when those in my community aren't in agreement with your POV. I keep thinking you're under the impression that one community of minorities can make a film a success when the budget of the that film exceeds their turn out. This why Tyler Perry keeps his films on a shoe string budget & why most of Spike Lee's films get independant release. \

I hate to make this a race issue but Costner & Ferrell are still White. Regardless of their prior successes, the majority of turn out for X-Men was still going to be largely White with or without them. Berry who was already popular in the Black community helps affect the number of Black movie goers turn out for this film. So in essance, she's proved herself a box office draw for African-Americans. So it takes the combined effort of both communities to make the film successful. Her other films weren't a full success because both audiences didn't turn out in full force for them and there budget exceeded audience turn out from both communities. "Dandridge" & Queen" were critically acclaimed but had a lower turn out from White audiences, while embraced by Black ones. Stewart & Berry combined had enough appeal to balance both audiences. It really is that simple. End of story.

 

[Captaindemotion]

For the final time, my definitions of success and of box office draw have nothing, nada, zero, zilch, repeat nothing at all, to do with colour, race, communities or anything other than pulling in audiences at the cinema. Whereas you've just totally changed the definition of 'box-office draw' to suit your particular point. A sort of affirmative action version of it, it seems.

My version of the term box office draw is colour blind. (Well, unless I re-use my 'green' joke). By B-O-D, I mean the sort of actor whose name in the credits pretty much guarantees that the movie will be a hit. Will Smith, Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise before he went mad, Julia Roberts (well, she used to be anyway), Johnny Depp etc. They'll all have their flops of course, but they can 'open a movie.' Their names above the credits will ensure that large numbers of people will go to see it and the movie will have a large opening weekend and 'legs' to keep audiences coming. I don't care if the audience is white, black, yellow, brown ... I just care about its size!

I'm not talking about breaking even, I'm not talking about turning a small profit. I'm talking about opening big. Perhaps we simply have different expectations as to what consitutes a box office draw, in that regards.

Did Halle, circa 2000, draw a certain amount of viewers into the cinema? Probably. I've never denied that. But she could not be guaranteed to see a movie have a good opening weekend in the way the names above can or could. That's what I mean by box office draw. Not someone who has a fanbase, who has a following, who is not an unknown. To re-use another example, putting Colin Farrell in a movie will probably guarantee a fair amount of interest in Ireland, but he's still not 'a box office draw.'

To start saying 'Oh, well put her in the right movie and she's a draw' is changing the goalposts. And to say that putting her and Stewart in the same movie guaranteed a hit is simplistic, not merely simple. Add the box office receipts from Star Trek Nemesis or B.A.P.S and you're still a long way away from the takings for X-Men. Sure, each of them had a part to play in its success, but the movie was the draw, not those two. If they were the major draws, why did the unknown Hugh Jackman have more screen time than either (probably as much as both put together)?

But at least you've finally conceded that pre X-Men, none of her headlining movies were box office hits ...

 

[exodus]

I need a drink.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ My round, I'll get them in. What ya having?!

 

[exodus]

^ My round, I'll get them in. What ya having?!

Anything that doesn't get me in trouble, like Pete Townsend.

 

[Captaindemotion]

So I can't interest you in a five year old*, then?

(*Whiskey, I mean)

 

[exodus]

So I can't interest you in a five year old*, then?

(*Whiskey, I mean)

Thanks, I needed that.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

Anybody think Jon Hamm could pull off a young Erik Lansherr (Magneto)?

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Way too much innuendo there for me to comment.