BREAKING: Paramount Sets Top Secret Star Trek Movie For Summer 2023; To Be Produced By J.J. Abrams

[Bad Robot]

... You're the one who brought up Orci when complaining about Kurtzman

You knew it was not in the context of suggesting him as an alternative to Kurtzman.

Not at all. Everyone knows my feelings thus far on the CBS live-action fare, just in case you don’t, I don’t find it remotely good and have said so on numerous occasions.

But if it was enough to drive me from fandom, I have no interest in making a spectacle of myself threatening to walk away, I would simply move on to things I enjoy more.

Then we're in agreement that it's garbage. And no, I wouldn't necessarily know where everybody stands on it. I'm sorry for not knowing in your case. But that also implies you've been allowed to express your disgust just as I did.

Anybody who likes something, WANTS to like it, should be concerned enough about it falling into (demonstrably) the wrong hands that giving voice to such concerns, even just from a desire to make them heard, does not automatically equate making a spectacle of oneself or making a threat by being prepared to walk away.

 

[BillJ]

Anybody who likes something, WANTS to like it, should be concerned enough about it falling into (demonstrably) the wrong hands…

The “wrong hands” is simply a matter of personal opinion. Star Trek is a business and CBS extended Kurtzman for five years to continue running it. So, from their POV it isn’t in the wrong hands and it seems to be doing its primary job of driving subscriptions and making money. I don’t have to personally like it for it to be successful.

 

[NCC-73515]

Nibiru (the planet the crew saves at the beginning of STID).

and where did this planet have anything to do with any conspiracy theory?

 

[donners22]

Anybody who likes something, WANTS to like it, should be concerned enough about it falling into (demonstrably) the wrong hands that giving voice to such concerns, even just from a desire to make them heard, does not automatically equate making a spectacle of oneself or making a threat by being prepared to walk away.

I like Trek and don't consider it to be in "demonstrably" the wrong hands, given Kurtzman has been involved in producing Trek which I consider to be better than much of that produced in the Berman era (particularly the films, which is the subject here).

Nor does liking Trek oblige me to care in the slightest if somebody else doesn't like an aspect of it. People have been liking and disliking particular Trek series and films since long before Kurtzman came around, often in similarly demonstrative and vitriolic fashion.

 

[F. King Daniel]

...He literally named the planet at the start Nibiru. I'm sure it was dolts on YouTube that made that happen too

He doesn't keep his beliefs or intentions secret. He even went on random Trek websites posting about them, and then there was his Twitter account....

I'm not speaking of Bob Orci. I'm speaking of Star Trek Into Darkness. What's Nibiru got to do with 9/11 conspiracies, and where are those conspiracies in the movie?

 

[The Wormhole]

I would rather J.J Abrams and the Bad Robot people over Kurtzman every day of the week,

I mean, you do know Kurtzman is one of the "Bad Robot people," right?

 

[Bad Robot]

The “wrong hands” is simply a matter of personal opinion. Star Trek is a business and CBS extended Kurtzman for five years to continue running it. So, from their POV it isn’t in the wrong hands and it seems to be doing its primary job of driving subscriptions and making money. I don’t have to personally like it for it to be successful.

You don't like it anymore than I do; you would probably prefer for the movie franchise to not fall under its umbrella. It is not being vitriolic or making a spectacle of oneself to say so, or to say that you're probably done with it if that happens. It can be as successful as its fans are willing to enable it to be; I don't judge anyone for liking it. (I am inclined to question how successful it's been, because the sense I think most skeptics get is that it simply won't "afford" to fail, full stop). I didn't go back and re-subscribe to Paramount; I'm streaming Foundation on Apple instead. It only becomes a problem for me when I get eyerolls or sarcastic replies in response to stating that I'd REALLY prefer for a particular something to not happen.

I like Trek and don't consider it to be in "demonstrably" the wrong hands, given Kurtzman has been involved in producing Trek which I consider to be better than much of that produced in the Berman era (particularly the films, which is the subject here).

Nor does liking Trek oblige me to care in the slightest if somebody else doesn't like an aspect of it. People have been liking and disliking particular Trek series and films since long before Kurtzman came around, often in similarly demonstrative and vitriolic fashion.

I defended CBS/Kurtzman Trek through STD's first two seasons (up until the finale, and even then I hoped STP would straighten things out) precisely because it wasn't Berman Trek. Back when detractors were mostly complaining about how things looked in terms of sets and props. And I still maintain the Kelvin movies are an overall improvement to the TNG films. Ultimately I have no issue with people's preferences; I think mine have been out of step with most of fandom's since TNG started maturing. But after four seasons I have yet to see the Kurtzman team do such obvious things as crafting a coherent story from start to finish, let alone develop it as a vehicle for telling some meaningful science fiction. That's been my experience and I think also that of most disillusioned fans at this point.

I mean, you do know Kurtzman is one of the "Bad Robot people," right?

Was. But you know that. I'm sure angry Youtubers are still trying to de-legitimize the Kurtzman shows by associating Secret Hideout with Bad Robot (Seems a wasted effort at this point, unless I underestimate the "Everyone hates Obama don't we Wink Wink" fan backlash against the Kelvin films even in wake of the streaming stuff).

 

[M'Sharak]

Was. But you know that. I'm sure angry Youtubers are still trying to de-legitimize the Kurtzman shows by associating Secret Hideout with Bad Robot (Seems a wasted effort at this point, unless I underestimate the "Everyone hates Obama don't we Wink Wink" fan backlash against the Kelvin films even in wake of the streaming stuff).

I don't know what this is referring to, but I have an idea it really doesn't belong in this forum. Let's keep it about Star Trek here, and leave current partisan politicking discussion to venues more appropriate to those topics, shall we?

 

[fireproof78]

I like Trek and don't consider it to be in "demonstrably" the wrong hands, given Kurtzman has been involved in producing Trek which I consider to be better than much of that produced in the Berman era (particularly the films, which is the subject here).

Nor does liking Trek oblige me to care in the slightest if somebody else doesn't like an aspect of it. People have been liking and disliking particular Trek series and films since long before Kurtzman came around, often in similarly demonstrative and vitriolic fashion.

Indeed. Though, if people decide to walk away from the franchise (whatever that looks like in this instance since Star Trek is more than the current productions) more power to them. I don't understand the compulsive need to like everything in a brand.

 

[Markonian]

Wow, another attempt at making a movie?
That's good news!
It might fizzle out like the other attempts but at least it means ParamountCBS is still interested in making a Star Trek movie. Perhaps it could tie into Prodigy.

 

[BillJ]

(I am inclined to question how successful it's been, because the sense I think most skeptics get is that it simply won't "afford" to fail, full stop).

I'm a big fan of Lower Decks, and find Prodigy promising after its premiere.

I'm not a Hollywood bigwig by any stretch of the imagination, but did spend a long time in the corporate world and know that CBS/Paramount/Viacom wouldn't keep writing checks to Secret Hideout for another five years if the shows weren't meeting some kind of internal metrics. I've simply never seen it work that way in the corporate world. Nor would they have greenlit another high dollar project from Secret Hideout in Strange New Worlds.

So whatever one thinks of the quality of work, they need to get over the idea that Kurtzman is somehow failing and CBS/Paramount/Viacom is simply dumping tens of millions of dollars down the gutter to keep from looking bad. By the end of his second deal, Kurtzman will have been running the franchise for 10+ years, you don't stay around that long if the product you are selling is failing.

 

[BillJ]

Once a hater always a hater. Few can ever really just let go and move on with their lives. Anyone satisfied with the new offerings must be made to suffer by enduring their constant complaining.

Star Trek is a big franchise with very few liking it all, and criticizing is fair game.

 

[M'Sharak]

Once a hater always a hater. Few can ever really just let go and move on with their lives. Anyone satisfied with the new offerings must be made to suffer by enduring their constant complaining.

This is one of the things I was talking about over here when I said we ought to be able to talk about stuff without taking pokes at other people.

We're not here to criticize fans or fan groups who like Things That Are Not The Same As What I Like™. We are not here to put people or groups down for having opinions about stuff.

Everyone is not going to be on the same page all of the time, and that's fine. That's normal.

What we can do is to talk about (and yes, even be critical about) things without taking shots at the Fans Who Have Different Opinions From Mine™ just because their opinions are not the same.

 

[fireproof78]

So whatever one thinks of the quality of work, they need to get over the idea that Kurtzman is somehow failing and CBS/Paramount/Viacom is simply dumping tens of millions of dollars down the gutter to keep from looking bad. By the end of his second deal, Kurtzman will have been running the franchise for 10+ years, you don't stay around that long if the product you are selling is failing.

In broad strokes this is very true. From what I am gathering there is a desire for Kurtzman to not bring his own version of that success to the films. Which, fair enough. The Kelvin films are not above criticism.

What I think I'm taking away from the comments is a desire to have the films and shows be separate entities, to allow a little more diversity in the leadership because there is dissatisfaction with the CBS/Paramount+ productions.

All that said, for my part, and apparently CBS/VIacom's money, Kurtzman is doing a satisfactory job in maintaining their revenue streams, which means that Kurtzman is doing a good job. And, lest we forget, both Lower Decks and Prodigy are produced under his leadership, even if not directly. So, to that end, I think that even if Kurtzman returns to the films in a leadership role it will still not look like current productions.

 

[BillJ]

Take 2.

Any idea CBS/Paramount/Viacom would continue pumping the millions required to produce all the Trek currently in production on the hope it someday becomes popular seems... hilarious!

When did that become a business model.

By the same token, just because something is "popular"* and making money, doesn't mean it is "good"*. Just look to the Transformers film franchise.

* - reason they are in quotation marks is because these terms are going to mean different things to different people.

 

[BillJ]

What I think I'm taking away from the comments is a desire to have the films and shows be separate entities, to allow a little more diversity in the leadership because there is dissatisfaction with the CBS/Paramount+ productions.

I would generally want the two (TV/movies) to be under differing leadership. But I don't own the IP nor do I sign the checks, so my thoughts on that particular subject are about as valuable as what I left in the toilet a couple of hours ago.

 

[Bad Robot]

I'm a big fan of Lower Decks, and find Prodigy promising after its premiere.

I'm not a Hollywood bigwig by any stretch of the imagination, but did spend a long time in the corporate world and know that CBS/Paramount/Viacom wouldn't keep writing checks to Secret Hideout for another five years if the shows weren't meeting some kind of internal metrics. I've simply never seen it work that way in the corporate world. Nor would they have greenlit another high dollar project from Secret Hideout in Strange New Worlds.

So whatever one thinks of the quality of work, they need to get over the idea that Kurtzman is somehow failing and CBS/Paramount/Viacom is simply dumping tens of millions of dollars down the gutter to keep from looking bad. By the end of his second deal, Kurtzman will have been running the franchise for 10+ years, you don't stay around that long if the product you are selling is failing.

So I like LDS... I don't love it. I can't decide whether the twists are too silly/stupid or not silly enough, whether I want Boimler to be occasionally competent, or whether I want more or less parody specifically in the deconstruction of Berman Trek. But it's the best Trek on right now. I could not re-subscribe though (yet), because neither Prod nor LDS felt like reason enough to subscribe to the other.

Do we even know ST's streaming metrics, or the economy of streaming in general? I have to believe some basic input/output still matters. Kurtzman Trek presumably costs a lot more than Berman, and yet supposedly doesn't even deliver the number of people that couldn't keep ENT on the air (a presumption that was regularly thrown in my face whenever I cited Berman Trek's ruler-steady viewership decline but was still known to be defending STD). I can easily believe STP has been more successful; whether curious viewers will stick around may be another matter.

Thing is, they can't even sell STD to a wider audience after they decided to re-tool it. Those numbers may go down, they're not going to go up. I really expected STP to replace it as their flagship show (So far I was wrong). Other people on here have acknowledged STD as a "zombie show" that couldn't be allowed to fail. And even on this thread, people acknowledge that ST's modern press releases lack substance. You're never going to hear anything from Paramount other than "We couldn't be happier how it's performing..." Rick Berman would say the same things over and over, but at least he would acknowledge "This year, the ratings slipped a bit," (You'd be expected to forget he said the same last year, as he went on to tease some of the changes he again hoped would reverse the trend).

If Paramount is really "just fine" with how the streaming shows are going, that means there's no incentive to do better. That there's nothing REALLY in need of improvement, that it doesn't matter whether these writers' rooms overcome whatever producer micro-management prevents them from crafting a coherent story, that it doesn't matter whether they understand science fiction (as opposed to just making stuff up to close out an episode and move on)... that whatever happens, it's doing "just fine." Which means it's now up to the fans to be "just fine" with it.

Does anyone LOVE Kurtzman Trek? As in actually prefer it over every other version (Classic, Roddenberry, Bennett/Meyer, Abrams, Berman) and vehemently defend it as the best? Or are the fans who regard disillusioned skeptics like myself as haters merely "just fine" with it? I don't listen to Midnight's Edge, nor believe Kurtzman has been fired twelve times. And I couldn't keep track when each five year contract goes/went into effect.

I know there are fans who love/prefer Berman Trek the most. Regard it as having set the parameters of "canon" or consider it bestowed with some interpretive authority which every other version of Trek is denied. When the eyerolls and scoffing of fellow Trek buddies during VOY (over anything that had become too familiar by that point) really started getting to me, I had to realize there was already too large a volume of ST to be "just fine" with it. You had competition like B5, Farscape and Firefly that had to get in there and fight for their time in the sun; those shows couldn't afford to be "just fine." We'd already had such stylistically-diverse entries as TWOK, TVH, TUC... which was like eating NY steak, sirloin steak, and then lobster. Now we were eating fried fish and hamburger. In 2009 we had steak again, perhaps over-seasoned with too many calories, and then over time the venue stopped serving it any way but well done. Today I think we're eating sloppy joe and battered chicken nuggets. I get my salmon and rice from Apple+'s Foundation. I also just saw DUNE and absolutely loved it.

When people insist it must be doing well because otherwise they wouldn't keep greenlighting more of it, do they make the calculation that this means maybe there IS no more "You'll see, it's getting better, STD-2 will be the real test. STP will be the real test. STD-3 will be the real test. S4 will be the real test. SNW will be the real test... "?

I can't be "just fine" with there simply being more Trek. (Even if it's the movies, which I always preferred).

I would generally want the two (TV/movies) to be under differing leadership. But I don't own the IP nor do I sign the checks, so my thoughts on that particular subject are about as valuable as what I left in the toilet a couple of hours ago.

Since I happen to share those thoughts , I'd say they're at least as valuable as anything I happened to pick up at Albertsons this morning. Admittedly it doesn't mean capitalism will even blink at them.

 

[Bad Robot]

I don't know what this is referring to, but I have an idea it really doesn't belong in this forum. Let's keep it about Star Trek here, and leave current partisan politicking discussion to venues more appropriate to those topics, shall we?

Sorry about that. I was making an implied comparison to an orchestrated/synchronized groupthink public backlash to something/body (Disney SW might be another example). I've made it before; you're the first to even blink at it, so maybe it's just not an effectively communicated image. So not really political, but I can avoid making that reference.

 

[fireproof78]

Does anyone LOVE Kurtzman Trek?

I would say I love Kurtzman Trek over Berman Trek, to split the hairs a bit. I certainly find way more value in TOS and Kelvin Trek over almost all other iterations of Trek, aside from one or two episodes there. I don't know if that answers your questions, but I certainly find myself drawn to one over the other.

To that end I find little value in "is this show doing well?" Because they made it enough for me to go "Yes, I like this, give me more." However, as time has gone on, the shift is apparent that the more Berman style of "Captain, anomaly of the week," style storytelling is going to take more of a focus over a larger drive for character based stories. What has appealed to me from Discovery and Picard is largely being left behind for closer to Berman Trek. Now, this is only my initial perceptions of Discovery S4 and Picard S2, but that my feeling. Strange New Worlds is probably the one I am most hopeful for because of Pike.

As for the films, I will always want more Kelvin universe. That is my preferred modern incarnation of Trek.

 

[M'Sharak]

Sorry about that. I was making an implied comparison to an orchestrated/synchronized groupthink public backlash to something/body (Disney SW might be another example). I've made it before; you're the first to even blink at it, so maybe it's just not an effectively communicated image. So not really political, but I can avoid making that reference.

If some event or occurrence in politics can be tied directly to a story or plot element / character moment which is already under discussion, I'm generally fine with that. However, if it doesn't directly relate to some in-universe Trek thing, there's always going to be a way for someone to come along and misunderstand it, and then things can have a way of getting messy and unpleasant (not to mention irretrievably off-topic.) So I prefer to skip that, if I can.