Re-watching Star Trek enterprise -regeneration and was thinking, does this mean that history wise Archer and the NX-01 was the first human Borg contact and not Picard and the Enterprise D??....
Borg of Enterprise....
- Thread starter Dark-prophet
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Also Reed took scans while on the ship so has history been altered with knowledge of the Borg and technology
Picard was never the first encounterer. As seen on Voyager, the Hansens went looking for them and were assimilated. Annika became Seven of Nine. Unfortunately, Starfleet never found out what happened to them.
After the Lily in First Contact, "Regeneration" was the first time contemporary human society encountered the Borg. Then, in the late 23rd Century, rescued El-Aurian refugees would have told people about the Borg (Star Trek Generations). People in Starfleet would have dusted off Archer's reports and perhaps set up inital investigations, which lead to the Hansens going out to find the Borg. By the time of TNG's first season, the Borg were probably more mythical than the Ferengi, as described by Picard in "Encounter at Farpoint." Starfleet would probably start paying serious attention at the end of the year, when the NZ ouposts were destroyed. They'd start building up defences, such as the Defiant-class ships; especially after Q forces the Enterprise-D to officially meet the Borg.
After the Lily in First Contact, "Regeneration" was the first time contemporary human society encountered the Borg. Then, in the late 23rd Century, rescued El-Aurian refugees would have told people about the Borg (Star Trek Generations). People in Starfleet would have dusted off Archer's reports and perhaps set up inital investigations, which lead to the Hansens going out to find the Borg. By the time of TNG's first season, the Borg were probably more mythical than the Ferengi, as described by Picard in "Encounter at Farpoint." Starfleet would probably start paying serious attention at the end of the year, when the NZ ouposts were destroyed. They'd start building up defences, such as the Defiant-class ships; especially after Q forces the Enterprise-D to officially meet the Borg.
"Regeneration" didn't change anything. It was simply part of what happened all along (as was the entirety of ENT).
Specifically, the episode was part of a closed time loop involving the Borg. You'll notice that in "Q Who", the cube encountered by the Enterprise-D was already headed in the general direction of Federation space...so they must have picked up the signal sent by the "Regeneration" Borg.
Specifically, the episode was part of a closed time loop involving the Borg. You'll notice that in "Q Who", the cube encountered by the Enterprise-D was already headed in the general direction of Federation space...so they must have picked up the signal sent by the "Regeneration" Borg.
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^ You're right, I wasn't.
No, the events of First Contact created a alternate timeline.
Originally the people who were killed in the silo and the surrounding village didn't die (on that day), Lily and a third person flew with Cochrane on the first warp flight.
Originally there was no wreckage at the south pole, no Borg in the snow, no Borg on the NX-01, no cure by Phlox. That's why there was no records of any of these events.
Deanna never mention the name "Enterprise" to Cochrane, so the NX-01 was named something else .... which is why it didn't appear on the observation lounge's wall during TNG series.
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They did not. You can't prove they did.
You are aware of what a predestination paradox is, right? As far as we know, Riker and Geordi were always the ones who flew with Cochrane. We never saw anyone else do it. And like I just said, you can't prove they weren't.
You don't know that. Nobody does.
No, the reason the NX-01 doesn't appear on that wall is because it was not a Federation starship.
And even so, you'll notice that the version of the Enterprise-C that does appear on that wall is not the one from the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise". So the "wall" is hardly definitive anyway.
Star Trek is inconsistent on it's rules for time travel. Sometimes it applies the predestination paradox and other times applies the idea that history can be changed.
As for the NX-01 not being a Federation starship... neither was the aircraft carrier Enterprise, yet an aircraft carrier is on the display wall of the E-D. Several non Federation ships named Enterprise were on the display of the Enterprise refit.
^ But not ALL of them.
I tend to agree here. I figure Starfleet buried Archer's encounter, as word of cybernetic zombies traveling space wouldn't be good for exploration programs. Plus, the Borg where already exploring the Federation/Romulan border in "The Neutral Zone".
Eh.
I, too, am in the Enterprise-was-a-sequel-to-First Contact, not a prequel-to-TOS camp. True, the TMP and TNG previous Enterprises displays lacked any reference to the NX-01, and I don't think that's the definitive argument. Though it would be a weird omission from the TNG wall, given its relative historical importance.
Also, to support the "Deanna told Cochrane the name of the Enterprise" argument, I would throw out the fake U.S.S. Dauntless NCC-01-A from the Voyager episode. Sure, it was fake, but the crew didn't know that at first, and none of them were thrown by that number being attached to a ship called Dauntless. And Excelsior sets the precedent of a ship starting as NX and going to sea as NCC. I propose that Archer's ship prior to the FC incursion would have been Dauntless NX-01.
Further, if Riker and Laforge had always been the co-pilots, then how come Riker and LaForge never mentioned that they looked an awful lot like those guys. It should have been like Scotty in ST4 telling McCoy that that actually was the guy who invented transparent aluminum. (As I recall, in the movie Scotty seems pretty flippant, like he's changing the time line and saying who's to say, but in the novel, he knows that it is the right guy, just too early so, no biggie. Though it's been a long time since I read it so maybe I am getting it wrong.)
The FC incursion along with the silliness of the Temporal Cold War help to explain all the continuity errors between ENT and the prior shows, one example: the first encounter with Klingons happening so much earlier than Spock said it did.
I could go on, but I'm on my lunch break and I have to get back to work.
--Alex
I, too, am in the Enterprise-was-a-sequel-to-First Contact, not a prequel-to-TOS camp. True, the TMP and TNG previous Enterprises displays lacked any reference to the NX-01, and I don't think that's the definitive argument. Though it would be a weird omission from the TNG wall, given its relative historical importance.
Also, to support the "Deanna told Cochrane the name of the Enterprise" argument, I would throw out the fake U.S.S. Dauntless NCC-01-A from the Voyager episode. Sure, it was fake, but the crew didn't know that at first, and none of them were thrown by that number being attached to a ship called Dauntless. And Excelsior sets the precedent of a ship starting as NX and going to sea as NCC. I propose that Archer's ship prior to the FC incursion would have been Dauntless NX-01.
Further, if Riker and Laforge had always been the co-pilots, then how come Riker and LaForge never mentioned that they looked an awful lot like those guys. It should have been like Scotty in ST4 telling McCoy that that actually was the guy who invented transparent aluminum. (As I recall, in the movie Scotty seems pretty flippant, like he's changing the time line and saying who's to say, but in the novel, he knows that it is the right guy, just too early so, no biggie. Though it's been a long time since I read it so maybe I am getting it wrong.)
The FC incursion along with the silliness of the Temporal Cold War help to explain all the continuity errors between ENT and the prior shows, one example: the first encounter with Klingons happening so much earlier than Spock said it did.
I could go on, but I'm on my lunch break and I have to get back to work.
--Alex
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That means there is a universe that the Enterprise, along with Worf disappeared from and they would've moved into the future of a timeline that wasn't their own at the end of First Contact. There's nothing post-First Contact that gives me the impression that they moved on to a new timeline.
Not saying it isn't an interesting angle to explore.
Yep. And given the episode "Parallels" [TNG], that shouldn't surprise us.
And I would argue that the shift to the new timeline at the end of FC was as seamless as the shift to the new timeline at the end of ST4.
--Alex
That is if you see it as a new timeline. Which I never have. There have never been any differences to the timeline they are going forward in. So, they likely got lucky and their interference had no repercussions or the timeline simply repaired itself.
They've never had the need to learn new kings.
The ST4 novelization did say Scotty recognized the fellow as the inventor of Transparent Aluminum. At worst it was a minor corruption of the timeline since he got the principles for it handed to him early but he still had to figure it out on his own. At best it was a closed loop requiring Scotty's participation. ST4 did show two timelines when the Starfleet Ops window is smashed by the storm- it the second one Sarek spots the returning KBoP, it the original at the beginning of the movie he does not. The Camera is on him for the same amount of time.
Personally I think First Contact did corrupt the original timeline- people died who would not have during the Borg attack on the launch site. I think if there had been an attack on the launch site in the prime timeline somebody would have mentioned it when they discovered what was going on, even if it was a simple "Ah, yes- this was the mysterious attack that Cochran mentioned but he never did say who was held responsible" or something like that. Cochran could keep quiet about the Enterprise and it's part in the flight, but there was damage, dead people and a lot witnesses who would not forget what happened that night.
Because they didn't think to look it up beforehand?
In strictly chronological terms, the events of First Contact are the first human-Borg meeting.
Could you identify any of the Apollo astronauts on sight? Especially the ones whose names you don't remember? (i.e. most of them)
Apollo 11 and 13, yes. Though admittedly, I'm a bit of a NASA geek and I'll bet most people couldn't.
On the other hand, many Americans would likely be able to ID Washington, Franklin, or maybe even Jefferson. And I get the impression from FC that Cochrane's place in history is more of that sort of importance. THE guy without whom the modern world (i.e. the UFP) wouldn't have happened. As important as the Apollo missions were at the time, nations did not rise and fall on their shoulders.
But even so, if I grew up seeing pictures of the astronauts realizing, "Heck, I sure look a whole lot like Michael Collins, and my buddy is the spitting image of Buzz Aldrin," and then found myself whisked away to Florida in July of 1969 with someone telling us that we had to fly the mission because (reasons), I would take the time to reassure Mr. Armstrong that history remembers me and my buddy going to the moon with him, not the two dudes he was expecting, and not to fret cause everything's gonna work out.
It just seems super weird to me that Riker and/or Geordi "Cochrane-fanboy" LaForge wouldn't have mentioned something if that's how it had worked out.
Besides, for my money, the whole thing just holds more water as the creation of an alternate timeline. It makes the continuity oddities from Enterprise iron out a little and it even makes room for JJ-Trek in my mind.
So for me the timeline starts with TOS, goes through TNG and those three shows, then, by traveling back in time to 2064 sets Cochrane and Friends on a slightly askew timeline that leads through Enterprise and straight to the Kelvin era that we see in the opening scene of Star Trek (2009).
or, expressed as what's a sequel to what:
TOS => TNG+ => FC => ENT => JJ-Trek
Whether Spock-prime is from the original TOS/TNG time line or the post FC/ENT timeline is up to each of us as viewers.
--Alex
On the other hand, many Americans would likely be able to ID Washington, Franklin, or maybe even Jefferson. And I get the impression from FC that Cochrane's place in history is more of that sort of importance. THE guy without whom the modern world (i.e. the UFP) wouldn't have happened. As important as the Apollo missions were at the time, nations did not rise and fall on their shoulders.
But even so, if I grew up seeing pictures of the astronauts realizing, "Heck, I sure look a whole lot like Michael Collins, and my buddy is the spitting image of Buzz Aldrin," and then found myself whisked away to Florida in July of 1969 with someone telling us that we had to fly the mission because (reasons), I would take the time to reassure Mr. Armstrong that history remembers me and my buddy going to the moon with him, not the two dudes he was expecting, and not to fret cause everything's gonna work out.
It just seems super weird to me that Riker and/or Geordi "Cochrane-fanboy" LaForge wouldn't have mentioned something if that's how it had worked out.
Besides, for my money, the whole thing just holds more water as the creation of an alternate timeline. It makes the continuity oddities from Enterprise iron out a little and it even makes room for JJ-Trek in my mind.
So for me the timeline starts with TOS, goes through TNG and those three shows, then, by traveling back in time to 2064 sets Cochrane and Friends on a slightly askew timeline that leads through Enterprise and straight to the Kelvin era that we see in the opening scene of Star Trek (2009).
or, expressed as what's a sequel to what:
TOS => TNG+ => FC => ENT => JJ-Trek
Whether Spock-prime is from the original TOS/TNG time line or the post FC/ENT timeline is up to each of us as viewers.
--Alex
Is it possible that even after the events of FC, history was falsified to show that Lily went on the flight with Cochrane? The launch area was isolated in a post-global war environment, and we didn't see a press corps recording everything for posterity.
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