Borg and Cealier-Destiny Novels *SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY*

[Joel_Kirk]

I hope I'm spelling those aliens correctly: Cealiar...(I actually think it's 'Caeliar')...

The scene with the MACO officer and two other Columbia officers, when they meet 'Sedrin' goes over a bit quickly for me.

I realize that Sedrin 'absorbed' her breathren--without their consent--since they (like the humans) were becoming weak....however, she seems to take over the minds of the three Columbia officers, uses one for literal food for the other two; and later the two have cybernetic implants...which they use on other aliens they meet on the planet....

Now, where did those cybernetic implants come from? (The Caelier's technology?)

How is that benefiting Sedrin? (Is she 'possessing' them? Using their energy in some way?)

That was a bit confusing...

 

[Cybersnark]

The implants could either have started out as Caeliar nanotech or even been cobbled together from whatever hardware was available (since the drones wouldn't have had to worry about pain, disease, or tissue necrosis). I'd guess that those first drones "wore out" fairly quickly. They would only have needed to last long enough to assimilate more drones (which would wear out in turn). It probably took several "generations" before the Collective was large enough to devote resources to actual manufacturing.

And I don't thing "Sedrin" still existed as a rational entity at that point; it was just the Hunger. The only thought in the Collective was to consume and grow (so it could consume more).

 

[Sci]

I hope I'm spelling those aliens correctly: Cealiar...(I actually think it's 'Caeliar')...

The scene with the MACO officer and two other Columbia officers, when they meet 'Sedrin' goes over a bit quickly for me.

I realize that Sedrin 'absorbed' her breathren--without their consent--since they (like the humans) were becoming weak....however, she seems to take over the minds of the three Columbia officers, uses one for literal food for the other two; and later the two have cybernetic implants...which they use on other aliens they meet on the planet....

Now, where did those cybernetic implants come from? (The Caelier's technology?)

How is that benefiting Sedrin? (Is she 'possessing' them? Using their energy in some way?)

That was a bit confusing...

The idea is that a Sedín (not "Sedrin"), as a Caeliar, was comprised physically of Caeliar nanotechnology. Her consciousness had significantly degraded by the time Graylock, Pembleton, and Thayer found her -- the equivalent of being either significantly brain damaged or mentally ill.

Using her nanotechnology, she possessed all three of their brains, merging their consciousnesses and placing their communal mind under her control. However, her consciousness, even though it was capable of advanced planning and problem solving, was still fundamentally degraded -- there wasn't a higher sense of consciousness to her, even though the drones had a consciousness that had been mind-mojo'ed into only serving Sedín's goals. The higher organizing consciousness became the Borg Queen -- a drone with sentience who was still subordinated to the desires and goals of the damaged mind of Sedín, controlling the collective mind of the rest of the drones.

I don't think those first drones had much in the way of implants. Probably just enough to deliver nanotechnology to infect other victims.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

I know that many are probably pretty Borg-ed out, but someday I'd love to see a book that covers their early history. I'm fascinated by the idea of how they went from those two drones in a room to becoming the massive threat they became.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm of the opinion that the Borg existed prior to the crash of Mantilis in the Delta Quadrant.

That doesn't mean, however, that the crash of Mantilis and Sedin's degradation aren't significant events in the development of the Borg, because they clearly are.

To be specific, I think that Sedin's personality is the Borg Queen program.

I suspect that what happened was this:

A group of natives stumble across the crash of Mantilis. They find the zombiefied humans. Sedin's personality ensnares them as well. Eventually, it's possible that Sedin's personality has reached out to the entire planet.

At some point after that, the Borg come to the planet and do their technology assimilation thing. In so doing, they bring Sedin's personality into the Collective. The primal force of Sedin overpowers the Collective to some extent, and it becomes the Borg Queen personality.

(When does this happen? I don't know.)

The Caeliar of New Erigol, when they tap into the Borg Collective in the final Destiny book, sense Sedin at the heart of the Collective. Do they misunderstand the significance of Sedin, and believe that she created the Borg? Or do they recognize that the Borg predated Sedin's assimilation, but they also recognize that Sedin corrupted the Borg and made them more dangerous than they may otherwise have been? Either way, because of Sedin, the Caeliar destroy the Collective and liberate the drones.

That's my theory. I'm sticking with it.

 

[Sci]

I'm of the opinion that the Borg existed prior to the crash of Mantilis in the Delta Quadrant.

That doesn't mean, however, that the crash of Mantilis and Sedin's degradation aren't significant events in the development of the Borg, because they clearly are.

To be specific, I think that Sedin's personality is the Borg Queen program.

I suspect that what happened was this:

A group of natives stumble across the crash of Mantilis. They find the zombiefied humans. Sedin's personality ensnares them as well. Eventually, it's possible that Sedin's personality has reached out to the entire planet.

At some point after that, the Borg come to the planet and do their technology assimilation thing. In so doing, they bring Sedin's personality into the Collective. The primal force of Sedin overpowers the Collective to some extent, and it becomes the Borg Queen personality.

(When does this happen? I don't know.)

The Caeliar of New Erigol, when they tap into the Borg Collective in the final Destiny book, sense Sedin at the heart of the Collective. Do they misunderstand the significance of Sedin, and believe that she created the Borg? Or do they recognize that the Borg predated Sedin's assimilation, but they also recognize that Sedin corrupted the Borg and made them more dangerous than they may otherwise have been? Either way, because of Sedin, the Caeliar destroy the Collective and liberate the drones.

That's my theory. I'm sticking with it.

It's certainly possible, but ultimately I have one problem with it:

Destiny manages to create a sense of completion about the history of the Borg -- we see their beginnings and we see their end. It creates a thematic unity: the same xenophobia and division that led to the creation of the Borg are overcome through the unity and tolerance the Federation influences the Caeliar to practice, which then saves everyone from the Borg.

Your theory undermines the thematic unity of the trilogy.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^^

@Sci-

I agree. There is a sense of completion....

{Especially since I am sooo tired of the Borg, but I obviously need to keep up with TrekLit....and the Destiny trilogy was interesting reading}.

I do like the explanation of ex-Sedrin...er, 'Sedin' and how she became 'Borg.'

Although, a further question: Was the 'hunger' Sedin's need to live, no matter who she took over/absorbed/assimilated?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Sci, I get what you're saying about thematic unity. I even agree with it.

But we're also approaching the Borg from two different perspectives. You're looking at Destiny as purely literary conceit, while I looked at Destiny as another chapter in history, one to be reconciled against things we already knew; the Borg in Treklit are older than Destiny would have them be.

I'm not saying Destiny is wrong, because it's not. I'm just saying that it's incomplete. *shrug*

 

[Joel_Kirk]

@Allyn-

You want to see another chapter... (I understand; and your viewpoint is also valid).

My Borged-out-self has to be partial with the idea that they are 'all gone' though...

[If not Picard is going to go crazy; he was literally crying on the bridge when he thought it was all over].

 

[Sci]

Sci, I get what you're saying about thematic unity. I even agree with it.

But we're also approaching the Borg from two different perspectives. You're looking at Destiny as purely literary conceit, while I looked at Destiny as another chapter in history, one to be reconciled against things we already knew; the Borg in Treklit are older than Destiny would have them be.

I'm not saying Destiny is wrong, because it's not. I'm just saying that it's incomplete. *shrug*

*nods* That's fair enough. I'm inclined to just throw out any other Borg origin story and disregard non-canonical evidence of the Borg pre-dating the Destiny origin, but that's me.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

*nods* That's fair enough. I'm inclined to just throw out any other Borg origin story and disregard non-canonical evidence of the Borg pre-dating the Destiny origin, but that's me.

And that's legit.

I can see tossing stories on the dustbin (and the only origin story I had to acknowledge for Star Trek Magazine was the manga story, as the rest were Strange New Worlds), but I'd be wary of tossing Vendetta (which has the Doomsday Machines being built two billion years ago to fight the Borg), as Before Dishonor is a sequel to it, and that leads into Destiny. (Also, Vendetta is backstory for New Frontier.) I can see the argument that Picard and Delcara were incorrect in their assumptions, but that's not the way the book plays out -- or the way Before Dishonor plays out when Seven merges with the Doomsday Machine. So, in some respects, Vendetta has to stick. YMMV, I suppose.

 

[Turtletrekker]

It could also depend on exactly when the Borg assimilated time-travel tech. We saw it in First Contact, but how long had they had it? How many times had they sent drones into the past before then? And how far back?

 

[Christopher]

Vendetta has one character speculating without a shred of evidence that the Preservers might've built the Doomsday Machine, and for the rest of the book and its sequel, that totally unsubstantiated conjecture is treated as a concrete fact. So yeah, I'd say the historical assumptions being made in that book are less than solid.

And there are aspects of Vendetta that are inconsistent with later canon. For instance, it portrays Picard as having been just as serious in his Academy days as he is aboard the Enterprise, an assumption which was completely blown out of the water by "Tapestry." So it has to be at least semi-apocryphal.

 

[JD]

Sci, I get what you're saying about thematic unity. I even agree with it.

But we're also approaching the Borg from two different perspectives. You're looking at Destiny as purely literary conceit, while I looked at Destiny as another chapter in history, one to be reconciled against things we already knew; the Borg in Treklit are older than Destiny would have them be.

I'm not saying Destiny is wrong, because it's not. I'm just saying that it's incomplete. *shrug*

*nods* That's fair enough. I'm inclined to just throw out any other Borg origin story and disregard non-canonical evidence of the Borg pre-dating the Destiny origin, but that's me.

*nods* That's fair enough. I'm inclined to just throw out any other Borg origin story and disregard non-canonical evidence of the Borg pre-dating the Destiny origin, but that's me.

And that's legit.

I can see tossing stories on the dustbin (and the only origin story I had to acknowledge for Star Trek Magazine was the manga story, as the rest were Strange New Worlds), but I'd be wary of tossing Vendetta (which has the Doomsday Machines being built two billion years ago to fight the Borg), as Before Dishonor is a sequel to it, and that leads into Destiny. (Also, Vendetta is backstory for New Frontier.) I can see the argument that Picard and Delcara were incorrect in their assumptions, but that's not the way the book plays out -- or the way Before Dishonor plays out when Seven merges with the Doomsday Machine. So, in some respects, Vendetta has to stick. YMMV, I suppose.

It's been a while since I read it but didn't the article talk about how there might have been multiple Borg or Borg like species throughout history. Personally, that's my favorite theory about how to bring together Destiny, Vendetta and other Borg stories that seem to contradict each other.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

It's been a while since I read it but didn't the article talk about how there might have been multiple Borg or Borg like species throughout history. Personally, that's my favorite theory about how to bring together Destiny, Vendetta and other Borg stories that seem to contradict each other.

It did, yes. I think the phrase I used was "evolutionary endpoint," that many races may reach a Borg-like state. Whether these species die out or they assimilate into a greater Borg "race" is something we don't really know.

 

[Sci]

Vendetta has one character speculating without a shred of evidence that the Preservers might've built the Doomsday Machine, and for the rest of the book and its sequel, that totally unsubstantiated conjecture is treated as a concrete fact. So yeah, I'd say the historical assumptions being made in that book are less than solid.

And there are aspects of Vendetta that are inconsistent with later canon. For instance, it portrays Picard as having been just as serious in his Academy days as he is aboard the Enterprise, an assumption which was completely blown out of the water by "Tapestry." So it has to be at least semi-apocryphal.

There's also its depiction of Tholians as having very long lifespans, whereas The Lost Era: The Sundered by Andy Mangels and Michael A. Martin (which Star Trek: Vanguard has stayed consistent with in its depiction of the Tholians) establishes that they actually have much shorter lifespans than most humanoid species.

 

[Cicero]

Sci, I get what you're saying about thematic unity. I even agree with it.

But we're also approaching the Borg from two different perspectives. You're looking at Destiny as purely literary conceit, while I looked at Destiny as another chapter in history, one to be reconciled against things we already knew; the Borg in Treklit are older than Destiny would have them be.

I'm not saying Destiny is wrong, because it's not. I'm just saying that it's incomplete. *shrug*

The sense of completeness that Destiny offered was something I disliked about the series. One of the things I most liked about the Borg on screen was how alien and vast they always seemed. They were the perfect counterpart to a humanist civilization, totally apart from and opposite to it.

I missed most of Voyager's Borg episodes - though I did see the first part of "Scorpion"; this portrayal may have changed. But it was more interesting to me than learning that we were responsible for every evil the Borg perpetrated - to include the scouring and torment of a vast portion of the Galaxy.

I would much prefer to regard the damage wrought by Columbia as contributory, not causal. It is one thing to say that our wrong actions strengthened our opposite and enemy, and quite another to suggest that it exists only because we made it.

With this aspect removed, I would enjoy Destiny much more. I hope the origin of the Borg will someday be explained as wider and more distant than Destiny intended. I even hope a little that the Borg might not yet - even ever - be fully defeated and destroyed.

 

[Sci]

Sci, I get what you're saying about thematic unity. I even agree with it.

But we're also approaching the Borg from two different perspectives. You're looking at Destiny as purely literary conceit, while I looked at Destiny as another chapter in history, one to be reconciled against things we already knew; the Borg in Treklit are older than Destiny would have them be.

I'm not saying Destiny is wrong, because it's not. I'm just saying that it's incomplete. *shrug*

The sense of completeness that Destiny offered was something I disliked about the series. One of the things I most liked about the Borg on screen was how alien and vast they always seemed. They were the perfect counterpart to a humanist civilization, totally apart from and opposite to it.

I missed most of Voyager's Borg episodes - though I did see the first part of "Scorpion"; this portrayal may have changed. But it was more interesting to me than learning that we were responsible for every evil the Borg perpetrated - to include the scouring and torment of a vast portion of the Galaxy.

I would much prefer to regard the damage wrought by Columbia as contributory, not causal. It is one thing to say that our wrong actions strengthened our opposite and enemy, and quite another to suggest that it exists only because we made it.

But... It doesn't. It depicts Humans as the first victims of Sedín.

I even hope a little that the Borg might not yet - even ever - be fully defeated and destroyed.

Disagree with you completely on that. I am so tired of Borg stories, and I am so glad to see them finally resolved once and for all.

 

[Cicero]

But... It doesn't. It depicts Humans as the first victims of Sedín.

It also depicts us as responsible for the chain of events that made Sedin what she became.

I even hope a little that the Borg might not yet - even ever - be fully defeated and destroyed.

Disagree with you completely on that. I am so tired of Borg stories, and I am so glad to see them finally resolved once and for all.

I didn't see most of the Voyager Borg stories, and didn't read any of the recent Borg novels except Destiny (I've read "Descent," "Vendetta," and "The Return"), so I may be less tired of the Borg than heavy Star Trek readers. Still, I wouldn't want to see the Borg again soon any more than you would. I'm sure I'd love to see them again in a few years, though - preferably on a more human and less galactic scale.

 

[Cybersnark]

But... It doesn't. It depicts Humans as the first victims of Sedín.

It also depicts us as responsible for the chain of events that made Sedin what she became.

Well, the destruction of Erigol wasn't realy the fault of the Columbia crew; it was one of the Caeliar fragments ensuring their own creation.

Without the humans' involvement, Sedin's group would still have ended up in the Delta Quadrant. They still would've starved and turned cannibal, and would either have died out then and there or lasted long enough to be found by the planet's inhabitants when Spring rolled around.

So, it's arguable that humans contributed to the Collective (or at least the Collective's survival and infection of the "Borg Homeworld"), but they weren't directly responsible for the transformation itself.