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Bob Orci's Comment: The Film Stood on its Own Without...[Spoilers]

One thought I had regarding Harris' reveal as Khan was, "Wouldn't it have all been better if he was Flint instead? Or Gary Seven? Cumberbatch looks more like them and either of them could be a better source of the Healing Blood."

But if that were the case it would have taken away a large part of Harris' motivations. Fellowship is a major theme of Into Darkness and I can't find a way that Flint or Gary Seven could do it in the same way that Khan could.

As for the Healing Blood... the eugenic supermen of this era were obviously designed differently from the Augments and Khan of the Prime universe. Blood with a super healing component is obviously a factor here where it wasn't in the prime universe. I don't mind this new definition of the character or his "people".
 
Norsehound said:
As for the Healing Blood... the eugenic supermen of this era were obviously designed differently from the Augments and Khan of the Prime universe. Blood with a super healing component is obviously a factor here where it wasn't in the prime universe. I don't mind this new definition of the character or his "people".
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We know that Khan was similarly resistant to injury from "Space Seed". It's a leap from there to the infectious healing blood... but it's not technically inconsistent.
 
ATimson said:
Norsehound said:
As for the Healing Blood... the eugenic supermen of this era were obviously designed differently from the Augments and Khan of the Prime universe. Blood with a super healing component is obviously a factor here where it wasn't in the prime universe. I don't mind this new definition of the character or his "people".
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We know that Khan was similarly resistant to injury from "Space Seed". It's a leap from there to the infectious healing blood... but it's not technically inconsistent.
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Er, I attributed that to sheer muscle strength and less anything bio-chemical. The trope of micro-organism macguffins seems to have a little more attention than in the 1960s, especially in cinema, so I'm not surprised they added that to Khan's "definition" as well.
 
I'm fully convinced that Abrams and Co. intentionally obfuscated Cumberbatch's character's identity in order to keep secret knowledge about the film's true antagonist, Admiral Marcus, as there was not even the slightest hint as to that character's villainy at any point during the production process.

As to whether the film would have worked better without Cumberbatch being Kahn, Orci is entitled to his own opinion, but I don't agree with him. Admiral Marcus' villainy works because he had the brass to try and use somebody - Kahn - who was more dangerous than he was as a pawn, and without that element, things would not have worked as well.
 
sj4iy said:
BillJ said:
He cracked Marcus' head like a nut. Pure evil.
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I loved how Khan told Spock he couldn't break bone, and then Spock twists his arm and cracks it in half. Pure awesome.
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Oooo I hadn't thought of that and now that I have thought of that I'm impressed. I did like how Cumby said "you can't even break bone" rather than "bones". It was some how more elegant and clinical which suited him being an calculating mastermind.
 
I actually think Harrison should have been his own villain. Making him Khan only convoluted the plot with the stupid human torpedoes thing - which makes little to no sense. But, most of this movie makes little to no sense. They still managed to keep a sense of fun, but man was this one a stinker.
 
Bishop76 said:
I actually think Harrison should have been his own villain. Making him Khan only convoluted the plot with the stupid human torpedoes thing - which makes little to no sense. But, most of this movie makes little to no sense. They still managed to keep a sense of fun, but man was this one a stinker.
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I would be shocked if he didn't come back full of vengeance if the movies go on long enough.
 
I don't understand - if you're going to reboot a universe, why retell stories that have already been told better? You can't beat TWOK with drivel like this. But you could have had a story that stands well on it's own without Khan. I really hope they don't bring Khan back for his wrath, but something tells me we're going to see a Mirror Universe movie, and a Star Trek VI movie (even though this one covered some of that ground already), and anything else that was popular will just be retold.

I want original stories, dammit!
 
Bishop76 said:
I don't understand - if you're going to reboot a universe, why retell stories that have already been told better? You can't beat TWOK with drivel like this.
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As much a generic mindless action film as ID is, I actually liked the idea of the mirror TWOK scenes. They weren't executed all that well -- they just didn't have the power of the original movie's scenes -- but it was a way to add some depth to the story. Of course, you know there isn't going to be any real sacrifice, so Kirk's death kinda falls flat (at least he didn't die saying, "Oh, my!"). Even my dad, who had no knowledge of any spoilers beforehand (and who liked the film) turned to me as Kirk died and sarcastically said, "Khan's blood, right?"

But you could have had a story that stands well on it's own without Khan. I really hope they don't bring Khan back for his wrath, but something tells me we're going to see a Mirror Universe movie, and a Star Trek VI movie (even though this one covered some of that ground already), and anything else that was popular will just be retold.
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They left him and his followers alive. I can't seer them not bringing him as well as his super human followers back for the next one. The temptation of too many cool action set pieces with fighting super humans will be impossible for the filmmakers to resist.
 
Bishop76 said:
I don't understand - if you're going to reboot a universe, why retell stories that have already been told better?
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This didn't tell the same story as TWOK, and TWOK is only "better" in a couple of respects. In most this is a better film.

The point of rebooting is to reuse those parts of the source material in a way that will appeal to current audiences - the same reason as for every other reboot.

And of course Khan will be back - to have his vengeance!! :lol:

Can't wait.
 
Admiral Buzzkill said:
This didn't tell the same story as TWOK, and TWOK is only "better" in a couple of respects. In most this is a better film.
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This is a discussion board so merely declaring matter-of-factly "this sucks" or "this is good" is pretty useless. If you want to say one film is better than another, explain why.
 
mos6507 said:
Admiral Buzzkill said:
This didn't tell the same story as TWOK, and TWOK is only "better" in a couple of respects. In most this is a better film.
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This is a discussion board so merely declaring matter-of-factly "this sucks" or "this is good" is pretty useless. If you want to say one film is better than another, explain why.
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Or make it clear it's just your opinion. Too many people expect their opinion to be universal... though I'm not sure I expect Mr Buzzkill to be among those.
 
I suppose that Christopher Nolan never should've used the Joker in his movies. That hack was rehashing shit! Damn him. Was The Dark Knight a rehash of Batman because it reused the Joker? No, it told a different story. So did STiD though it did reuse the death scene but it was a different take on it. Not really a big deal IMO.
 
Enterprise is Great said:
I suppose that Christopher Nolan never should've used the Joker in his movies. That hack was rehashing shit! Damn him. Was The Dark Knight a rehash of Batman because it reused the Joker? No, it told a different story. So did STiD though it did reuse the death scene but it was a different take on it. Not really a big deal IMO.
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Likeness aside, the one thing you can expect from a new actor taking on an iconic role is to meet or exceed the original. CumberKhan just didn't measure up. He didn't have to do a Montalban impression, but he did have to somehow bring his own special something, like the late Heath Ledger. And he really didn't. It was just the usual pompous "bad white guy with a posh accent" schtick and they had him end not with a bang the way Khan did, but with a whimper, getting his ass kicked by the singular symbol of wimpy geekdom--SPOCK.
 
mos6507 said:
Likeness aside, the one thing you can expect from a new actor taking on an iconic role is to meet or exceed the original. CumberKhan just didn't measure up. He didn't have to do a Montalban impression, but he did have to somehow bring his own special something, like the late Heath Ledger. And he really didn't. It was just the usual pompous "bad white guy with a posh accent" schtick and they had him end not with a bang the way Khan did, but with a whimper, getting his ass kicked by the singular symbol of wimpy geekdom--SPOCK.
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Sorry, disagreeing with you fully there. Cumberbatch's Khan exceeded Montalban's Khan by far in my opinion. He was more menacing, manipulative and more berserk than the original Khan, who never really seemed that scary to me. Cumberbatch turned every word he said into ice and stole every scene he was in. Not many people can pull off a character where you go from sympathetic to evil in just a few seconds and make it believable. And I definitely don't agree with judging him based on his race or accent. Did anyone judge Montalban for being Hispanic?

He didn't die because they wanted to leave an opening. Everyone compares this movie to TWOK when they should be comparing it to Space Seed. Khan got his ass kicked by KIRK...who he was supposedly five times stronger than. At least I can believe a Vulcan capable of beating him...instead of a human with a paper towel roll. Khan had no revenge against him in this movie because he didn't know him. If he appears in a future movie, then he'll probably be looking for revenge against Spock.

I know you won't agree with my assessment, but many people thought Cumberbatch was awesome as Khan.
 
sj4iy said:
mos6507 said:
Likeness aside, the one thing you can expect from a new actor taking on an iconic role is to meet or exceed the original. CumberKhan just didn't measure up. He didn't have to do a Montalban impression, but he did have to somehow bring his own special something, like the late Heath Ledger. And he really didn't. It was just the usual pompous "bad white guy with a posh accent" schtick and they had him end not with a bang the way Khan did, but with a whimper, getting his ass kicked by the singular symbol of wimpy geekdom--SPOCK.
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Sorry, disagreeing with you fully there. Cumberbatch's Khan exceeded Montalban's Khan by far in my opinion. He was more menacing, manipulative and more berserk than the original Khan, who never really seemed that scary to me. Cumberbatch turned every word he said into ice and stole every scene he was in. Not many people can pull off a character where you go from sympathetic to evil in just a few seconds and make it believable. And I definitely don't agree with judging him based on his race or accent. Did anyone judge Montalban for being Hispanic?

He didn't die because they wanted to leave an opening. Everyone compares this movie to TWOK when they should be comparing it to Space Seed. Khan got his ass kicked by KIRK...who he was supposedly five times stronger than. At least I can believe a Vulcan capable of beating him...instead of a human with a paper towel roll. Khan had no revenge against him in this movie because he didn't know him. If he appears in a future movie, then he'll probably be looking for revenge against Spock.

I know you won't agree with my assessment, but many people thought Cumberbatch was awesome as Khan.
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What she said.
 
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