Spoilers Black Panther grade and discussion thread

[Venardhi]

Sure. I just think there was a lost opportunity to explore the ideas of isolationist vs globalist politics, and of rigid tradition vs violent revolution vs the (less satisfying, but wiser and more sustainable) middle path that the film skirted the edges of. A theme that is very much relevant to western society as a whole right now. This particular series of scenes regarding the ceremony of becoming King was a particularly notable example of said skirting. It's a dumb system better suited to a barbaric warrior society and in continuing to entertain it they expose themselves to disaster.

 

[DarthPipes]

Definitely. Among villains I would rank him right at the top with Loki and Vulture, perhaps even better than both of them. Only repeat viewings will tell (for me at least).

Agreed.

Marvel has been on a role with their villains since last year. To me, that was the only thing lacking in so many of their films and I'm glad to see them finally taking it seriously.

 

[Set Harth]

I knew M'Baku was going to return and stand beside to T'Challa because we see him standing beside T'Challa in the Infinity War trailer.

There's no way I would have remembered that.

Speaking of trailers, my theater showed trailers for Venom, Ant-Man and the Wasp, and Deadpool 2. Three Marvel movies from three different Studios.

I had those too. And I think they actually censored the Deadpool trailer. Because "what in the actual ass" is too harsh for general audiences?

No one ever questions Erik's right to challenge the throne by tradition, but allow him to stomp all over them immediately after taking power.

Yeah, he basically Darth Mauled that shit.

 

[John Clark]

Just back from seeing it myself and thought it was a good solid film

(For the trailers, we got Deadpool 2, Infinity War, Tomb Raider and Wrinkle in Time)

 

[wew]

Saw the film yesterday afternoon, so the theater wasn't overflowing with people. However, about half the seats were filled.

To a large degree, I saw the film as essentially a typical Marvel movie; with a relatively similar template to other Marvel movies. It was good enough that I don't consider it wasted time or money, but not good enough to go see again.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I forgot to mention in my review that other than the post-credits scene with Bucky, I'm glad this film largely stands on its own from the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I initially wanted to see the Soul Stone to show up (and there was some speculation that it would be connected to Wakanda's ancestral plane), but now I'm grateful it's not there. Not just to avoid the mistakes of Age of Ultron, but also so the film can feel independent from the rest of the filmography.

 

[EmoBorg]

I just saw the show. It was better than expected.

In case if you would like to know for Nerd reasons.

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[Gryffindorian]

One of the best Marvel films I've seen in years. They've succeeded in introducing a lesser known superhero with such a great presentation and execution that results in an action-packed visual feast. The story surrounding a young prince turned king of a highly sophisticated African kingdom is one of contrasts, both primitive and advanced, ancient and ultramodern, traditional and futuristic. The high-caliber cast adds depth to each of their characters. There's just the right balance of humor throughout the movie.

I give it an A!

 

[Xerxes82]

I just find it lacking in plausibility that a culture who only allow the most physically capable and/or ruthless warriors to lead them would not inevitably fall into the hands of someone like Killmonger far earlier than the events of this film. If W'Kabi had the strength or the stones himself it seems like he would have been inclined.

The ritual is meant to be a formality, a tradition. Nobody actually challenges the Black Panther for rule. It's a holdover from an earlier way of life, meant to provide continuity and spirituality to a people in a time of change and transition. Especially in a culture that is as obviously concerned with it's history and it's ancestors as Wakanda.

As an example, you ever been to a wedding? Every wedding I've ever been to, they still do the whole bit with "If there be anybody who believes these two should not be wed, let them speak now or forever hold their piece" bit. It's archaic, nonsensical, and is there ever an actual objection? Of course not. But they do it anyway, because that's how it's been done for countless generations.

Now, yes, it's a problem that the Wakandan ritual has the force of law. A holdover from an older time that has been turned on those who are bound by tradition. But it's also thematic in the film. That traditions and rituals are important, culturally, but when they hold you back or open you up to exploitation or abuse they need to change. Wakanda is so bound by the way things WERE that they are no longer truly prepared for the way things ARE. And we see them struggling against those bonds, between cultural traditions and modern demands of morality and conscience, between what they have always been and what they might yet become.

I can see why it would bother somebody. But I felt it was used well in the film, thematically. The old ways coming round to haunt the more modern inhabitants, even as they must cling to them against outside forces.

 

[Venardhi]

Literally the only time we ever see the ritual though, he is challenged. If they wanted it to be clear that it was simply a holdover tradition, they should have dedicated two lines to that. Having M'Baku show up in the first ceremony immediately undercuts any idea that it isn't supposed to be an entirely legitimate path to the throne.

 

[EmoBorg]

M' Baku 's people, the Jabari, are they part of Wakanda ? In the beginning of the movie, they left before the other four tribes formed Wakanda under the first Black Panther. When Killmonger took over Wakanda, the four tribes quickly fell into line. Only the Dora Milaje and eventually the Jabari fought against Killmonger.

 

[JD]

I think the are, they're just off by themselves in the mountains.

 

[crookeddy]

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/ryan-coogler-interview-black-panther-steven-spielberg-1201929249/

"Ryan Coogler is the new Steven Spielberg"

 

[The Nth Doctor]

M' Baku 's people, the Jabari, are they part of Wakanda ? In the beginning of the movie, they left before the other four tribes formed Wakanda under the first Black Panther. When Killmonger took over Wakanda, the four tribes quickly fell into line. Only the Dora Milaje and eventually the Jabari fought against Killmonger.

I need to watch the film again to see how the film presents it, but in the comics, they're an outlawed tribe due to unsanctioned acts it performed as a cult, largely connected to M'Baku and his origins (specifically as the unfortunately named Man-Ape).

 

[Xerxes82]

The movie explicitly called them one of the five tribes that founded Wakanda. Then tells us that when the Black Panther became king, they went off to the mountains to do their own thing. Part of, but apart from.

All the evidence in the film suggests they're still Wakandan.

Spoiler

M'Baku can challenge for the throne. When the family goes to them after Killmonger's rise to power, they call the new king an "outsider," presumably as opposed to M'Baku not being one.

Outside of hearing that no king of Wakanda has ever gone to the mountains, and that the Jabari feel politically disaffected in general, we're not really given any clarity on their status beyond context clues.

 

[bigglesworth]

Just saw the film this afternoon. Overall it was decent. Not Marvel's best, but not their worst either.

Wakanda was wonderfully done. The movie felt epic. I loved the scene in the Korean casino. All of the cast was great in this and that's almost true for the characters. T'Challa, Okoye, Shuri, Ramonda, M'Baku, Zuri, Klaue and Ross were all wonderful. Nakia was boring. W'Kabi's actions made no sense, nor did N'Jadaka/Killmonger's.

Regarding Nakia, she had zero chemistry with T'Challa. Her part really should have been given to Danai Gurira or the actress that played Shuri.

I think my biggest complaint would be the plot, specifically as it relates to Killmonger. Alright, I get that Killmonger is an ex Navy SEAL, ex CIA operator, super badass, so no doubt he's highly trained in all sort of firearms, hand-to-hand combat, etc... But melee weapons like swords and spears? Prince T'Challa's been training his entire life with those types of weapons, not to mention every martial art known to man. No way should T'Challa have lost to Killmonger.

Furthermore, why did Killmonger show up at this point in time (in the movie)? Okay, so he somehow get's wind of a vibranium artifact being in London. He steals it, then gives it to Klaue to sell. Klaue make arrangements to offload the vibranium to a buyer in South Korea who turns out to be Ross. Ross/T'Challa capture Klaue and interrogate him, presumably at a CIA safehouse. Killmonger shows up, takes Klaue back only to kill him and bring him to Wakanda to rub the king's nose in it.

But how did Killmonger know that the Wakandans were looking for Klaue? Ross is CIA and he didn't seem to know, nor did he expect T'Challa to be at the casino. Maybe Klaue told Killmonger that he's been hunted for the last decade by the Wakandans, but if that's true, why go through all the trouble of stealing the vibranium in London? Why not just kill Klaue and just take him to Wakanda to start with? Why did Killmonger even want to go back to Wakanda? He knows they have this very advanced tech from the stories his father told and the book that his dad left behind... okay... but he also knows that the Black Panther killed his dad, and may very well kill him as soon as he sets foot on Wakandan soil. Furthermore was all the Wakandan history, customs and rituals in that one book, particularly the customs and rituals of royal families? How did Killmonger know he could simply challenge T'Challa for the throne? Maybe there's a 14 day "cool down" period before the fight commences or something along those lines. That would have put a damper on Killmongers plans.

Finally once Killmonger becomes king, his intent is to take over the world with Wakandan tech? I'm thinking the Avengers might have a problem with that. I know, Earth's mightiest heroes are down a few key people, but they still have some heavy hitters like Vision and Stark. The Avengers stopped an alien invasion. Does Killmonger really think he's playing at their level even with fancy Wakandan thing-a-ma-bobs or doodads?

Nothing that Killmonger does in this movie makes any sense to me. Moving on to W'Kabi, he's supposedly T'Challa's best friend, yet quickly tosses all of that aside to join with N'Jadaka. Again... why? Does he feel that N'Jadaka has Wakanda's best interests at heart? Why would he? N'Jadaka has never stepped foot in Wakanda. In fact he has no ties to Wakanda other than being the son of the former king's bother. Does W'Kabi believe that Wakanda should rule the world with absolute authority? If so, why not challenge T'Challa in the beginning or why not have a dialog with T'Challa once he becomes king and present his reasons? Nope... he instead betrays his best friend to support a megalomaniacal despot and plunges Wakanda into a civil war.

 

[Xerxes82]

Moving on to W'Kabi, he's supposedly T'Challa's best friend, yet quickly tosses all of that aside to join with N'Jadaka. Again... why? Does he feel that N'Jadaka has Wakanda's best interests at heart? Why would he? N'Jadaka has never stepped foot in Wakanda. In fact he has no ties to Wakanda other than being the son of the former king's bother. Does W'Kabi believe that Wakanda should rule the world with absolute authority? If so, why not challenge T'Challa in the beginning or why not have a dialog with T'Challa once he becomes king and present his reasons? Nope... he instead betrays his best friend to support a megalomaniacal despot and plunges Wakanda into a civil war.

His parents were killed in Klaue's attack. He blamed T'Chaka for never doing anything about it. And then T'Challa promised him that he'd bring Klaue back to Wakanda to face justice. And failed to live up to that promise. So when Killmonger shows up, with the body of the one man in all the world that W'Kabi wanted dead...

It is the duty of a king to protect his people. For W'Kabi, T'Chaka failed in this. Then T'Challa promised justice and failed to deliver. And here comes, straight to your door, a member of the royal family who, despite being abandoned, ignored and erased from history, still managed something his kings failed to do for 3 decades.

Also, note that W'Kabi, in his very first scene, suggests to T'Challa exactly the course of action that Killmonger later takes. He WANTS to be sent out into the world to conquer and set right what he perceives as wrongs. So Killmonger's plan, though extreme perhaps even to him, fits with what W'Kabi already stands for.

 

[Venardhi]

It does seem like Killmonger has managed to gather some intel on the current state of Wakanda over the years. He really shouldn't have known as much as he did though without making it clearer to the audience how.

As to his plot, we have to assume he knew T'Challa would come for Klaue at some point and did his best to make sure he was around to stop him so he could then turn around and immediately use Klaue as his bargaining chip to get in a position to challenge for the throne. It would all have worked better for me if say, Nakia turned out to have been seduced by him in the outside world and was acting as a mole to feed him intel and get everything in place for his arrival. There are a lot of things I'd change about how the story unfolds it turns out.

 

[Csalem]

Really enjoyed this film. I was worried going into by the plot synopsis saying " a conflict that puts the fate of Wakanda and the entire world at risk" fearing it would be another world ending event Black Panther had to fight. Although the synopsis was correct, I did like how it was a much smaller-scale story, and a more personal one, dealing more with a family problem than some larger outside threat.
I found all the characters compelling in this film, and one of the best casts in any Marvel film.

And the only Marvel trailer we saw before the film in Dublin was Avengers Infinity War.

 

[FPAlpha]

The ritual is meant to be a formality, a tradition. Nobody actually challenges the Black Panther for rule. It's a holdover from an earlier way of life, meant to provide continuity and spirituality to a people in a time of change and transition. Especially in a culture that is as obviously concerned with it's history and it's ancestors as Wakanda.

As an example, you ever been to a wedding? Every wedding I've ever been to, they still do the whole bit with "If there be anybody who believes these two should not be wed, let them speak now or forever hold their piece" bit. It's archaic, nonsensical, and is there ever an actual objection? Of course not. But they do it anyway, because that's how it's been done for countless generations.

Now, yes, it's a problem that the Wakandan ritual has the force of law. A holdover from an older time that has been turned on those who are bound by tradition. But it's also thematic in the film. That traditions and rituals are important, culturally, but when they hold you back or open you up to exploitation or abuse they need to change. Wakanda is so bound by the way things WERE that they are no longer truly prepared for the way things ARE. And we see them struggling against those bonds, between cultural traditions and modern demands of morality and conscience, between what they have always been and what they might yet become.

I can see why it would bother somebody. But I felt it was used well in the film, thematically. The old ways coming round to haunt the more modern inhabitants, even as they must cling to them against outside forces.

Seen it yesterday and i didn't get that from the movie at all. No once actually questioned the succession ritual at all (apart from Shuri being herself lacking a little respect for comedic purposes). In fact Wakanda seems to have found a perfect balance between old traditions and scientific/technological progress which is what makes them unique.

Many cultures that advance into the high tech age tend to start to question "useless" old traditions that serve no purpose and religious faith is in decline.. Wakandans remember and respect their past but it doesn't hinder them advancing themselves which is what i really liked about the movie.

Personally i gave it a B.. it's one of the better movies Marvel has released recently (in a time where i felt they started to become really formulaic). It was not perfect.. i would have liked it better if they didn't give Killmonger such a destructive past as a killer who apparently enjoys killing. In fact it would have been far better if he were just the opposite of T'Challa and his motivation stems from the fact that T'Chaka made a monumental mistake by killing his brother and thus putting Eric on his path to revenge only to realize that his personal goal is nothing compared to what Wakanda could offer the world if it only would reveal itself and take charge which is why he would need to remove T'Challa from power and assume control of Wakanda.

This may have led to T'Challa realizing that Eric may be right with the only disctinction that Wakanda would work with the world instead of taking over (which is what happens anyway).

Commenting on the obvious i applaud Marvel for actually going through with a nearly all black cast in a blockbuster movie and it seems it pays off big time.. i hope this ultimately leads to others taking notice that a good movie is a good movie no matter who leads it and what it's about.