Spoilers Black Panther grade and discussion thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Nth Doctor, Feb 15, 2018.

?

How do you rate "Black Panther"?

  1. A+

    18.6%
  2. A

    40.7%
  3. A-

    15.0%
  4. B+

    11.5%
  5. B

    5.3%
  6. B-

    3.5%
  7. C+

    1.8%
  8. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. C-

    0.9%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0.9%
  12. D-

    0.9%
  13. F

    0.9%
  1. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Lost in a temporal and spacial anomaly
    [​IMG]








    The film is already out in Europe and Australia, as well as early showings tonight in the United States. I won't be seeing it until tomorrow afternoon, but I can't wait!
     
    Shaka Zulu and Cutie McWhiskers like this.
  2. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Location:
    Tacoma, Washington
    Going tonight at 7:40 PST! :techman:
     
  3. Snaploud

    Snaploud Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2001
    Location:
    Rhode Island, USA
    I give it an A. It's one of my favorite Marvel Studios movies (a list which includes the first Captain America movie, the first Iron Man movie, and the third Thor movie).
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  4. Gryffindorian

    Gryffindorian Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Location:
    California
    98% on Rotten Tomatoes. A must see!
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  5. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    The Great Wide Somewhere
    B+

    I'd love to give it a higher score but there were some glaring missed opportunities and it generally felt driven by the needs of the plot over the choices of the characters.

    The cast is among the most likable and compelling in the MCU, saving most of the questionable material in the script but they can't save it all. The worst of which is when the director lets the animation team run wild and turn several sequences into outright cartoons without any sense of true danger or possible mortality for our heroes.
     
    Gavin70 and Set Harth like this.
  6. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    I thought it was really good. A fantastic cast and world-building are its strengths, with Michael B. Jordan being a standout as Killmonger. He gives one of the best performances in the MCU alone.
     
  7. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    A solid A for me.
    The world building for Wakanda was awesome, I loved the art direction.
    Some really cool action scenes, with the big fight at the casino, and the battle at the end being standouts.
    Pretty much the whole cast was great, Killmonger is one of the best Marvel villains we've gotten. He's is one those villains who could have easily been the hero if things had just plaid out a bit differently. Shuri, Nakia, and Okoye were all awesome.
    The story was really good too, with some pretty big twists and surprises.
    I was a bit surprised they appeared to have killed Killmonger and Klaue, I expected at least one of them to survive to come back in a sequel.
     
    Shaka Zulu and Nyotarules like this.
  8. bigglesworth

    bigglesworth Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Can't wait to see it. Will be going tomorrow (Saturday).

    To those who've seen it, what did you think about the updated costume; Specifically the more panther-like mask. I thought the Civil War costume made BP look very intimidating. The new mask with the more pronounced snout, at least in the trailers, seems a bit silly, but maybe it works better in the actual film.
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  9. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    The guy who played 1992 T'Chaka was spot on casting. He actually looked like Boseman.
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  10. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I really didn't notice that much of a visual difference other than the new capabilities.
     
  11. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Lost in a temporal and spacial anomaly
    Every person will have a different take on Black Panther, least of all because the film has so many different target audiences. For me, I was enamored with the film's ability to construct a rich and complex fictional culture, while also telling a thoughtful story filled with engaging characters without ever feeling bogged down or overstuffed.

    More importantly, the film didn't shy away from difficult questions involving race and identity, particularly how Wakanda's livelihood contrasted so differently from black people around the world, especially African-Americas. I'll certainly need several more viewings of the film to chew on the issues the film grappled with.

    While the main character was T'Challa, he was outshined by all of the women around him. Nakia, Okoye, Ramonda, and especially Shuri stole the film from T'Challa thanks to the performances of Lupita Nyong'o, Danai Gurira, Angela Bassett, and Letitia Wright, respectively. I can only hope future Marvel films (and films in general) will have so many beautifully-realized female characters in lead and supporting roles.

    The rest of the cast were wonderful, but I have to give special shout outs to Michael B. Jordan as Erik Killmonger, who is easily one of the best MCU villains (if not the best), Andy Serkis, who clearly relished hamming it up as Ulysses Klaue, and Martin Freeman, who brought more gravitas and strength of character as Everett Ross than the original comic character who was often utilized as comic relief.

    Black Panther may very well be Marvel's best film, not just because it does something differently, but because it dared to do more than tell a superhero's story. The film was the story of a black king and his place in the world.
     
    Ovation, Starkers, lurok and 4 others like this.
  12. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    So want to see this...
     
  13. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Lost in a temporal and spacial anomaly
    What missed opportunities do you think they missed on?

    The only glaring issue I had was the film failed to clearly address M'Baku's concerns with how Wakanda was run or why the Jabari became outcast. There are explanations for that in the comics, of course, but I didn't feel like it was properly presented in the film. Unless, I missed it.

    Definitely. Among villains I would rank him right at the top with Loki and Vulture, perhaps even better than both of them. Only repeat viewings will tell (for me at least).

    The costume design is inspired by the current Ta-Nehisi Coates run. We see several versions of it in the film and I thought all of them looked magnificent.
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  14. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    This is the best Marvel movie since maybe Civil War. Instead of relying on corny jokes and humor, this film still had the humor but relied on the storytelling and world building this film presents. Bozeman was great as T'challa, but it was the supporting cast that really makes this film shine, especially Letitia Wright as Shuri, and Danai Gurira as Okaye, and of course Michael B. Jordan as Erik Killmonger. Killmonger was one of Marvel's best realized villains because his motivations feel real and genuine. It's not someone who just wants power for the sake of power. It's someone who has personal stakes and the fight at the end between him and Black Panther felt real and personal.

    I also liked the message this film provides. I haven't read the critics for this movie but I have heard this film being called Racist or some thing like that. I don't think this film is racist at all. It's almost looking at itself saying that change starts small and in the community. We have to take care of each other, rather than relying on others to do the job.

    Like I said, this is Marvels best film in a few years. It also works in that you can be entirely new to Marvel and not have seen any of the films before it. I appreciated how self contained this film was.

    A
     
    Shaka Zulu and Cutie McWhiskers like this.
  15. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Location:
    Tacoma, Washington
    Solid A. Bozeman once again nails T'Challa and the supporting cast fired on all thrusters. Michael B Jordan as Killmonger is one of Marvel Studios best villains. A character with legitimate motivations and sympathetic goals, but too bitter and hardened by life and his pursuit of vengeance to truly be sympathetic. Shuri was a scene stealer.

    The Wakandan world building was top-notch. The design of the capital city and the costume designs were jaw-dropping.

    My only minor complaint had nothing to do with the movie itself and more to do with Marvel marketing so many movies with the same characters at the same time, is I knew M'Baku was going to return and stand beside to T'Challa because we see him standing beside T'Challa in the Infinity War trailer.

    Speaking of trailers, my theater showed trailers for Venom, Ant-Man and the Wasp, and Deadpool 2. Three Marvel movies from three different Studios. :lol:
     
    The Nth Doctor likes this.
  16. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I was really hoping Shuri would get her own Black Panther suit by the end of the movie.

    I was wondering who could be their next villain with Killmonger and Klaue both being dead, and after looking around on Wikipedia, I found a great possibility, Achebe. I could definitely see them getting rid of the Mephisto stuff, but the general idea of someone who comes in as a refugee and then takes over, or tries to take over Wakanda, while T'Challa is distracted outside of the country, would work really well as a followup to where this one ended.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
    gblews likes this.
  17. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    The Great Wide Somewhere
    The most glaring problem I had was that the culture of Wakanda doesn't make sense in the context of its actions.
    They choose their leadership based on a cage match, yet no king has ever been inclined towards conquest in its thousands of years of history? There's so much emphasis on traditions without really confronting which traditions are actually worth maintaining. No one ever questions Erik's right to challenge the throne by tradition, but allow him to stomp all over them immediately after taking power.

    Ceremony is absolutely worthwhile and traditions important, but cultures evolve as they develop and it feels like Wakanda is in many ways trapped as a bronze-age civilization with fantasy technology plastered on top. Who are they fighting (other than themselves) with those war rhinos? Why does it seem like everyone's job except for Shuri, some tribal elders and a couple kids is to stand around in armor when their real military strength is in Vibranium technology?

    Some other issues:

    Okoye and W'Kabi barely interact other than to say "my love" once before the climax of the battle comes to rest on his not being willing to kill her for his ideals.

    Killmonger's plan for African supremacy felt tacked on to a pretty basic revenge plot that only worked because an entire country just shrugs at the idea that their beloved king is replaced by a Tyrant because of a fistfight. That they made him a complete sociopath meant any sympathy I might have for the child who was Erik was well gone by the time they tried to make me "understand" him. It gives him motivation, but "your dad killed my dad" does nothing for me. If N'Jobu had been exiled for attempting a more MLK-style peaceful revolution of Wakanda in the hopes of lending aid to their brothers and sisters around the world and Erik grew up with a father emasculated and emotionally destroyed by failure and the loss of his homeland and status, I could see a troubled boy growing up to reject his Father's methods and seeking to reclaim his birthright through violence and accomplish what his father could not. Of twisting his father's hopeful ideals into the monstrosity of racial supremacy.

    T'Challa gives up pursuit of Klaue and Killmonger in Korea because he sees his grandfather's ring. Where's all that tenacity he had when chasing down Bucky in Civil War? Or even just the night before. They're in an electrical van, in a busy city, they're not gonna get far.

    The spirituality side left something to be desired. Eat an herb, see your daddy, boom you're Black Panther. I'd have liked to see T'Challa fail in his vision quest the first time and for that doubt to be what undercuts him in his fight with Killmonger. That maybe he isn't the best leader for his people, that he doesn't know the way forward for them. Considering he doesn't get much of a character arc here, it would have added another layer that I would have appreciated in seeing him grow into someone who really is fully prepared to lead and accept that he can not be some perfect ideal as King, and has to be a man doing his best in spite of imperfection.
     
  18. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Location:
    Lost in a temporal and spacial anomaly
    I only got Venom and Ant-Man and Wasp. I was surprised we didn't get one for Infinity War.

    I'm not surprised they didn't do that. There was so much going in this film as it is. Besides, you have to save something for the sequel.

    Achebe is a great villain and an even better foil for T'Challa with Achebe's over-the-top mania to T'Challa's cold seriousness. Mephisto isn't necessary to Achebe's story, merely a tool for Achebe's work...and provides amusing moments for Everett Ross.

    Who's to say there weren't challenges before? Plus, remember those challenges only occur when the previous ruler dies, which certainly reduces the number of times for it to occur. Further, with the exception of the Jabari, the tribes are presented as largely united behind whoever is set to rule. That's different from the comics where there are more tribes and more internal conflict, but I've only read the Priest run, so I don't how that's been addressed for the history of Wakanda (it doesn't come up in Priest's run other than problems for T'Challa).

    Part of it is certainly leftover from times of when the tribes warred against each other. Plus, again, the Jabari (which is a bigger issue in the comics).

    Eh, I didn't get that impression at all. For instance, we see some of the farming community, albeit briefly. Besides, just because we don't see them, that doesn't necessarily mean people aren't doing work elsewhere. When we see a film set in America or Germany or Japan, we don't see the work teachers, police officers, engineers, sales people, construction workers, etc. do when telling the story unless they're the focus. Why do we need to see that for Wakanda? True, it does seem like Shuri is the only scientist, at least at the palace, but that's partially because she appears to be chief scientist (a combination of her relation with T'Challa and her own intelligence). We do see some technicians in the background at least. We don't need to see more.

    Yeah, I agree that was problematic because when that moment occurred, I had completely forgotten that they were lovers (it was demonstrated once during the first act).

    That bothered me, too, until I realized they flew directly to Wakanda in order to save Ross' life. I guess it was a combination of being devoted to saving his friend's life (who had nobly thrown himself in front of Nakia, T'Challa's love) and being shaken at the sight of the ring, wishing to seek answers before perusing his quarry further. One of the notable aspects of T'Challa (at least during the Priest run) is how focused T'Challa is in a hunt by gathering as much intelligence as possible first before ever going after his prey.

    I understand your issues with these two points but I disagree with you on both, although I don't really much more to say than that.
     
    Shaka Zulu likes this.
  19. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    The Great Wide Somewhere
    I just find it lacking in plausibility that a culture who only allow the most physically capable and/or ruthless warriors to lead them would not inevitably fall into the hands of someone like Killmonger far earlier than the events of this film. If W'Kabi had the strength or the stones himself it seems like he would have been inclined.
    Certainly, but it seems to me it could have been framed as more of a symbolic ritual similar to kneeling for a new king. Step up to challenge and immediately yield as a show of deference to his strength, whatever. Just something to show that literally having your ruling class fight it out isn't how they've actually been determining their leaders for all these centuries. That it's a vestige of that earlier incarnation of their culture which Killmonger takes advantage of.
     
  20. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I got the impression that it was a symbolic thing, and that M'Baku and then Killmonger actually challenging him was very unusual.