While I agree they were wasted, I can't say I feel they belong on this conversation. With Species 8472 it felt more to me that they were limited by the budgetary or studio demands placed on the show rather than what I saw on screen (until the "In the Flesh" episode which did pretty much defang them and turn them into Changeling rip offs). Up until that point though, they were pretty scary, but the show failed them. Out the gate the Kazon and Ferengi were lacking in a way that Species 8472 were not. Species 8472 got a great introduction but the follow-up wasn't strong. I felt with the Kazon they got a weak introduction and never fully recovered, and did need Seska to make them formidable. The Ferengi rallied after becoming more comedic, though still retaining some sketchiness.
Biggest villians fail? "Discovery" Klingons, "TNG" Ferengi or "Voyager" Kazon?
- Thread starter Jayson1
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While I agree they were wasted, I can't say I feel they belong on this conversation. With Species 8472 it felt more to me that they were limited by the budgetary or studio demands placed on the show rather than what I saw on screen (until the "In the Flesh" episode which did pretty much defang them and turn them into Changeling rip offs). Up until that point though, they were pretty scary, but the show failed them. Out the gate the Kazon and Ferengi were lacking in a way that Species 8472 were not. Species 8472 got a great introduction but the follow-up wasn't strong. I felt with the Kazon they got a weak introduction and never fully recovered, and did need Seska to make them formidable. The Ferengi rallied after becoming more comedic, though still retaining some sketchiness.
Liking the DISCO Klingons so far. They're different than what we're used to, just like the TNG Klingons were different from the TOS Klingons, but they're an interesting new variation on the concept.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to interrupt the thread but....we’re calling it DISCO now??
How is that better than STD??
Sorry to interrupt the thread but....we’re calling it DISCO now??
How is that better than STD??
Sorry to interrupt the thread but....we’re calling it DISCO now??
How is that better than STD??
The irony is that, this time, STD is leading to Disco instead of the other way around.
I voted Ferengi. Utterly ruined as Big Bads in the same episode they premiered in. At least the Kazon got through the pilot episode before getting tedious.
Though DS9 did turn the Ferengi into one of my favorites later on, it wasn't as villains.
I think the Ferengi started off rather poorly in The Last Outpost, but soon started improving. Once tptb started protraying them more as coniving, manipulative jerks than a vicious brute force villain, they were much better, imho.
While I wasn't crazy about the Kazon, they weren't bad enough to really impact the series for me. I did like the backstory that came out later.
The Discovery Klingons were the worst for me. I don't like the redesign. I see no way that it improves their presence, or advances the story. Just change for change sake. If I didn't know about this change before the show premiered, I'd have a bigger problem with it.
Also, I'm just sick of the Klingons. They've been done to death! Focus on some new bad guys and alien races.
While I wasn't crazy about the Kazon, they weren't bad enough to really impact the series for me. I did like the backstory that came out later.
The Discovery Klingons were the worst for me. I don't like the redesign. I see no way that it improves their presence, or advances the story. Just change for change sake. If I didn't know about this change before the show premiered, I'd have a bigger problem with it.
Also, I'm just sick of the Klingons. They've been done to death! Focus on some new bad guys and alien races.
Species 8472 were AMAZING villains. They just were never inteded to be recurring villains. They were a one-off, and IMO probably the most successfull one-off villain in Trek.
They were undefeatable. But they had one weakness - as soon as that was discovered, their "threat"-status was revoked. The same way any Kryptonian wouldn't be a difficulty for Batman anymore, since he knows about Kryptonite.
While I'm not a fan of the episode "In the Flesh", having their later apperance not be as a villain made a ton of sense. And inbetween we had "Prey", a nice AvP-episode, way before there ever was a AvP movie. I think being a super effective villain in 3 out of 4 episodes they appeared in in their entire is a pretty good success rate.
Tell that to Bruce when one stands outside of the range of the Kryptonite radiation and lobs a small mountain at him. (Or worse, uses their powers to do a stealthy, long term surveillance of Batman, find out his secret identity... and then report him to the IRS. You ain't gotta kill or even injure someone to make them WISH they were dead.
)8472 would have been better used, in my opinion, if they had used their "Starfleet Academy" facility to practice and then take over the Federation. The ongoing testing for *Founders* would have actually provided them with cover if they did it right, because not being a Founder means you're really you, right? Voyager could have gotten home earlier (and with fewer tedious filler episodes) and then had to deal with THAT for a couple of seasons. STO used them for something similar, later. One of the better things STO has done, IMO.
The DSC Klingons can't be a "fail" just because they are different from what you were used to or wanted.
If the argument is that they outright suck...then I'd be willing to entertain that discussion (even though I think there is even far less ground to stand on there)...but not just because they are "different."
The Kazon were shitmonkeys. The Ferengi were only used as true "villains" twice...and then they transitioned them into tongue-in-cheek foils.
If the argument is that they outright suck...then I'd be willing to entertain that discussion (even though I think there is even far less ground to stand on there)...but not just because they are "different."
The Kazon were shitmonkeys. The Ferengi were only used as true "villains" twice...and then they transitioned them into tongue-in-cheek foils.
Tell that to Bruce when one stands outside of the range of the Kryptonite radiation and lobs a small mountain at him. (Or worse, uses their powers to do a stealthy, long term surveillance of Batman, find out his secret identity... and then report him to the IRS. You ain't gotta kill or even injure someone to make them WISH they were dead.
8472 would have been better used, in my opinion, if they had used their "Starfleet Academy" facility to practice and then take over the Federation. The ongoing testing for *Founders* would have actually provided them with cover if they did it right, because not being a Founder means you're really you, right? Voyager could have gotten home earlier (and with fewer tedious filler episodes) and then had to deal with THAT for a couple of seasons. STO used them for something similar, later. One of the better things STO has done, IMO.
To be frank, I didn't like that 8472 suddenly became shapeshifters. That was my main problem with the episode. That they were afraid of the Federation technology and suddenly saw themselves in a cold-war/mutually assured destruction-type scenario - which they were absolutely not prepared for, given their ultimate supremacy in their own realm - was (at least for me) the somewhat saving grace for this episode.
Again, I'm not a big fan of this episode in general. I like the "alien infiltrator camp"-concept, but wish it would have been used for another type of story, with another different species. And that we maybe would have seen a last appearence by 8472 in another episode.
Well, I consider "large parts of your audience HATES what you're doing with them" to be a certain type of failure. So the original question has absolutely their own merits. It's just, all these three types of failures are completely different types of failures:
- Ferengi: Nobody could take them serious as villains. But their existence themselves turned out to be quite valuable in the long run
- Kazon: Completely satisfy their intended role as villains for plot purposes, but simply were boring and not very memorable at what their doing
- DIS-klingons: Effective villains and memorable, but completely dividing the fanbase for how much of a radical reboot of an already existing, iconic property they are
Fair point...but honestly....they couldn't have re-done the same 80's Klingons we saw in the TNG era stuff. That was just too dated and immature to cut loose in a series that is going for the things Discovery is going for. It's admittedly a bummer for people who found that portrayal of the race fun and inspiring...but it wasn't going to happen.
So, I personally find it hard to begrudge them for doing (yet another) update to the species.
I think the best versions of the Klingons are the TMP version, the DSC version and the guys in the deleted scenes (yes, I suppose I'm going there) from ST 2009. They all seem fearsome, evil, warlike and ALIEN. The Klingons we became most comfortable with did not feel alien to me. They felt like cosplay humans acting on an expensive TV show.
Absolutely, a small re-vamp was IMO 100% necessary. I would have just prefered it, if it were more in the line of, say, what Enterprise did with the Andorians or Tellarites. A re-vamp using modern make-up technologies that is a little bit closer to the original.
In fact, IMO they just needed to add details and texture. Use the same basic shapes for their starships, just make present-day detailed CGI-models of them. Use the same basic brutalistic interiour style. Have their basic appearence be the same (bushy eye-brows and beards, ridges on the head), just with modern wigs and more detailed make-up.
MY favourite depictions of the klingons btw comes from "The undiscovered country". Nobody was talking about their warriour culture. But it was visible in every action they took. They weren't so much a bunch of space vikings, they were a well-organized militaristic society not to be messed with. And we saw PLENTY of different individuals with varying styles in there as well!
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To me the Disco Klingons fail in part because I think the older versions are simply more interesting and the changes they did make weren't improvements and also because they don't feel like they belong in the era in which the show is set. Plus I kind of dislike the idea that the one thing they really keep, and that is using them as villians, is actually the one thing that should have been changed. I would prefer some changes that extend from what we have seen before. Making them ancient klingons, like the rumors would have been neat and I have always wanted to see them defeated and maybe as a slave race, perhaps to the Romulans or maybe a culture divided by more liberal oriented Klingons to the more conservative types we see. To me he new ones are just kind of brutal thugs who have no sense of fun. They come off like a bad James Bond henchmen.
Jason
In The Flesh is a terrible episode but IMO does not undo their effect in seasons 3-4.
I have no problem with 8472 not being villains but they shouldn't have been weakened and made to do totally unnecessary village simulations. They could have found a way for them to find common ground and make peace without looking human.
My problem with Disco Klingons isn't that they aren't what I wanted, it's that they aren't something interesting instead. But at least they aren't exaggerated cartoon characters like the Ferengi.
I have no problem with 8472 not being villains but they shouldn't have been weakened and made to do totally unnecessary village simulations. They could have found a way for them to find common ground and make peace without looking human.
My problem with Disco Klingons isn't that they aren't what I wanted, it's that they aren't something interesting instead. But at least they aren't exaggerated cartoon characters like the Ferengi.
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