Biggest Plot Hole?

[McMenemy00]

The key being AFTER everyone had died, not when there was time to rescue them whether they wanted it or not. Never mind the distictly unfederation firing of weapons at a ship in critical distress. Kirk tells Nero he can't possibly save himself, in other words the nerada is screwed and thn we shoot at it.

Heroic, no?

Well, if you want to take the chance it spits Nero out somewhere else in history in anything other than tiny pieces, you do that. I prefer fewer starships blowing up when they shouldn't, myself.

I'd prefer tractoring them out and forcing them to face justice in the time they committed there crimes than the murder of a crew of hundreds, potentially thousands, that were mostly guilty of following the orders of there commanding officer and attempting, albeit in a rather destructive way, to save there homeworld.

You say PotAto I say Potato...........................

 

[Bobatiel]

Uh... anyone else wonder why they had to drill to the center of the planet before creating the artificial black hole? A few more drops of red matter and they could create the black hole on the surface with the same effect.

Obvioudsly you don't know a thing about how red matter works!

 

[NumberOne]

Biggest Plot hole? For Me it has to be the Kelvin's Chief Engineer saying "Weapons are Down, Shields are at 34%" and in the very next shot, we see the Kelvin firing phasers.

Ruined the whole movie for me.

I caught that as well but quickly I got past it

 

[lightsyder]

One of the strangest plot holes occured to me only after I'd left the theatre; the reappearance of the 'lightning storm in space'. Why did one show up around Vulcan, and at the Klingon prison planet? Was the Narada travelling via red matter-holes, in the case of the Klingon thing even before it had obtained the red matter itself?

If I recall correctly, that second lightning storm in space will have been where Spock Prime ends up entering the past, where Nero was waiting for him. I think it might have been in Klingon space, too.

Wormhole appears, Spock comes out, Narada catches spock, Klingons get blown up by Narada, Uhura hears about it, etc....

Hmm. That does make a certain amount of sense, except those who've read the Countdown comic all seem to be saying that the fight around the Klingon planet was Nero breaking out of prison. Indeed, when we see that the Narada has arrived where Nero has figured out Spock will emerge, it's empty space if memory serves.

Still doesn't explain the sighting at Vulcan, though...

Nero battled the Klingons in his original timeline in the Countdown comic right before he went through the blackhole. I think the prison planet part came from an early draft of the movie or a cut scene or something like that...

 

[T'Bonz]

That back story is in the countdown comics. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek_countdown

-frank

OK, non-film comic or book backstories don't count. If it's NOT in the movie, it's not part of the movie, no matter who wrote it.

A movie should stand alone, without extra stuff not seen on screen being considered part of the story. If a movie doesn't make sense without this extra stuff, than the job of communicating the story wasn't done properly. One shouldn't have to buy a comic or a book to get important information about the movie. The information necessary to have something be remotely believeable should be contained in the movie. We can then pick it apart if we disagree with the science or whatever, but it's unrealistic to expect fans of a movie to accept big movie flaws by saying, "Well, we explained it in the prequel!" Not good enough. A few lines in the MOVIE is what was needed.

In the movie alone, Nero is presented as nothing but a regular miner. There is no way he would have had the information that he had. I'm not so sure that I would buy the comic version either. I can't see the Romulans even letting a "leader of the miners" in on their discussion.

Plus - "red matter" is never discussed in the movie. It's just used as this magic thing to stop the supernova, and is very much a deus ex machina.

 

[Holodoc]

If I recall correctly, that second lightning storm in space will have been where Spock Prime ends up entering the past, where Nero was waiting for him. I think it might have been in Klingon space, too.

Wormhole appears, Spock comes out, Narada catches spock, Klingons get blown up by Narada, Uhura hears about it, etc....

Hmm. That does make a certain amount of sense, except those who've read the Countdown comic all seem to be saying that the fight around the Klingon planet was Nero breaking out of prison. Indeed, when we see that the Narada has arrived where Nero has figured out Spock will emerge, it's empty space if memory serves.

Still doesn't explain the sighting at Vulcan, though...

Nero battled the Klingons in his original timeline in the Countdown comic right before he went through the blackhole. I think the prison planet part came from an early draft of the movie or a cut scene or something like that...

Battles with the Klingons in the 24th century wouldn't have any effect on battles with them in the 23rd. Unless you're suggesting that Nero fought the Kelvin, then went back to the 24th century, fought those Klingons, then came back to the 23rd century twenty-five years later and fought more Klingons...

And it was hardly 'a cut scene'; Uhura and Kirk both make reference to the 'lightning storm in space' around the site of the Klingon's battle with Nero, in two seperate scenes.

 

[lightsyder]

Hmm. That does make a certain amount of sense, except those who've read the Countdown comic all seem to be saying that the fight around the Klingon planet was Nero breaking out of prison. Indeed, when we see that the Narada has arrived where Nero has figured out Spock will emerge, it's empty space if memory serves.

Still doesn't explain the sighting at Vulcan, though...

Nero battled the Klingons in his original timeline in the Countdown comic right before he went through the blackhole. I think the prison planet part came from an early draft of the movie or a cut scene or something like that...

Battles with the Klingons in the 24th century wouldn't have any effect on battles with them in the 23rd. Unless you're suggesting that Nero fought the Kelvin, then went back to the 24th century, fought those Klingons, then came back to the 23rd century twenty-five years later and fought more Klingons...

And it was hardly 'a cut scene'; Uhura and Kirk both make reference to the 'lightning storm in space' around the site of the Klingon's battle with Nero, in two seperate scenes.

Nero attacked a Klingon fleet lead by Worf in the Countdown comic in the 24th century. That was right before Spock created the black hole and they went back in time. The message Uhura picked up before the Enterprise launched in the 23rd century was supposed to be tied to something with a Klingon prison planet. From what I've read on these boards it was a cut scene showing Nero's escape from the prison planet before capturing Spock. That is the scene that was supposedly in the script but left out, not sure if it was filmed or not. I don't know why he was on the prison planet, guess he didn't just sit around for 25 years afterall. I wasn't implying he came to the past, went back ot the future and then came back again...

 

[Holodoc]

Nero battled the Klingons in his original timeline in the Countdown comic right before he went through the blackhole. I think the prison planet part came from an early draft of the movie or a cut scene or something like that...

Battles with the Klingons in the 24th century wouldn't have any effect on battles with them in the 23rd. Unless you're suggesting that Nero fought the Kelvin, then went back to the 24th century, fought those Klingons, then came back to the 23rd century twenty-five years later and fought more Klingons...

And it was hardly 'a cut scene'; Uhura and Kirk both make reference to the 'lightning storm in space' around the site of the Klingon's battle with Nero, in two seperate scenes.

Nero attacked a Klingon fleet lead by Worf in the Countdown comic in the 24th century. That was right before Spock created the black hole and they went back in time. The message Uhura picked up before the Enterprise launched in the 23rd century was supposed to be tied to something with a Klingon prison planet. From what I've read on these boards it was a cut scene showing Nero's escape from the prison planet before capturing Spock. That is the scene that was supposedly in the script but left out, not sure if it was filmed or not. I don't know why he was on the prison planet, guess he didn't just sit around for 25 years afterall. I wasn't implying he came to the past, went back ot the future and then came back again...

Right, so, then what does any of that have to do with the three 'lightning storms in space'?

 

[Peter the Younger]

Right, so, then what does any of that have to do with the three 'lightning storms in space'?

No, but it is consistent with a Kerr style singularity, which is the only type you could travel through as they do. Kerr singularities are spinning rings, and they are electromagnetically charged, hence the lightning.

Plus - "red matter" is never discussed in the movie. It's just used as this magic thing to stop the supernova, and is very much a deus ex machina.

What's to discuss? It's some variety of exotic matter discovered through 24th century science. How would it have improved the film to go off on a five minute technobabblefest about the behavior of non-fusing coherent quantum condensates in ultra-high temperature environments? That is exactly the sort of thing Trek needed to get away from.

 

[lightsyder]

Battles with the Klingons in the 24th century wouldn't have any effect on battles with them in the 23rd. Unless you're suggesting that Nero fought the Kelvin, then went back to the 24th century, fought those Klingons, then came back to the 23rd century twenty-five years later and fought more Klingons...

And it was hardly 'a cut scene'; Uhura and Kirk both make reference to the 'lightning storm in space' around the site of the Klingon's battle with Nero, in two seperate scenes.

Nero attacked a Klingon fleet lead by Worf in the Countdown comic in the 24th century. That was right before Spock created the black hole and they went back in time. The message Uhura picked up before the Enterprise launched in the 23rd century was supposed to be tied to something with a Klingon prison planet. From what I've read on these boards it was a cut scene showing Nero's escape from the prison planet before capturing Spock. That is the scene that was supposedly in the script but left out, not sure if it was filmed or not. I don't know why he was on the prison planet, guess he didn't just sit around for 25 years afterall. I wasn't implying he came to the past, went back ot the future and then came back again...

Right, so, then what does any of that have to do with the three 'lightning storms in space'?

No clue about the three lightening storms. I was just describing the Klingon based stuff...

 

[Holodoc]

Right, so, then what does any of that have to do with the three 'lightning storms in space'?

No, but it is consistent with a Kerr style singularity, which is the only type you could travel through as they do. Kerr singularities are spinning rings, and they are electromagnetically charged, hence the lightning.

Yes, I know what the 'lightning storm in space' is generated by; it's the red matter. What I'm trying to figure out, and what not even the most ardent of fans of the new movie have so far been able to explain, is what the 'lightning storm in space' is that shows up around the Klingon prison planet and Vulcan.

 

[Flake]

This new movie has Generations-level plot holes and annoyances however the difference is that one is a so-so movie and the other one is great fun

I do think Orci and Kurtzman need to hire the Okudas next time.

 

[CordrazineOD]

The ship hadn't warped off after Vulcan was destroyed. It was sitting still in space.

There's also little to no indication that Delta Vega was adjacent to Vulcan.

I'd say Vulcan being clearly visible in the sky, close enough to see the surface fragment, is a pretty bloody clear indication that Delta Vega somehow teleported from the edge of the Galaxy to next to Vulcan in the Crap Timeline.

One of the biggest plotholes for me, is the fact that the effects of the Super Special Red Matter Blackholes arent even consistent within the film. Someone care to explain to me how one Red Matter Blackhole transports you back in time to a location close to someone critical to the Timeline, while every subsequent Red Matter Blackhole just sucks you up?

Why didnt the remains of Vulcan or the Nerada get dumped next to a convenient History altering moment? Surely an asteroid field filled with dead Vulcans should have popped up as the Phoenix went to Warp for the first time, or the remains of the Nerada scratch the paint of the NX-01.

What are you talking about? We have no way of knowing whether or not Vulcan and Narada emerged on the other side of the black holes. Nothing in the movie indicates that they didn't. Nothing has to indicate explicitly that they did.

 

[Bobatiel]

Plus - "red matter" is never discussed in the movie. It's just used as this magic thing to stop the supernova, and is very much a deus ex machina.

What's to discuss? It's some variety of exotic matter discovered through 24th century science. How would it have improved the film to go off on a five minute technobabblefest about the behavior of non-fusing coherent quantum condensates in ultra-high temperature environments? That is exactly the sort of thing Trek needed to get away from.

Amen!

 

[Plum]

That back story is in the countdown comics. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek_countdown

-frank

OK, non-film comic or book backstories don't count. If it's NOT in the movie, it's not part of the movie, no matter who wrote it.

A movie should stand alone, without extra stuff not seen on screen being considered part of the story. If a movie doesn't make sense without this extra stuff, than the job of communicating the story wasn't done properly. One shouldn't have to buy a comic or a book to get important information about the movie. The information necessary to have something be remotely believable should be contained in the movie. We can then pick it apart if we disagree with the science or whatever, but it's unrealistic to expect fans of a movie to accept big movie flaws by saying, "Well, we explained it in the prequel!" Not good enough. A few lines in the MOVIE is what was needed.

Yeeaa. But I appreciate this is a part of the story the writers did... as opposed to just fucking it up.

In the movie alone, Nero is presented as nothing but a regular miner. There is no way he would have had the information that he had. I'm not so sure that I would buy the comic version either. I can't see the Romulans even letting a "leader of the miners" in on their discussion.

I didn't read the comics, but the thing about Nero, to me, was that he had a giant mining ship. He saw his world die. He blamed Spock. He used his mining ship with Red Matter for revenge. Oh, he seems to have added many missles for defence and to "FIRE EVERYTHING"!

Plus - "red matter" is never discussed in the movie. It's just used as this magic thing to stop the supernova, and is very much a deus ex machina.

Ever hear of 'Red Mercury'? It's not a deux ex machina... it's a McGuffin. I reckon.

 

[chardman]

Vulcan wasn't sucked into a black hole, but became a black hole. It is the mass from which the black hole was formed. It didn't pass through a doorway, but became a doorway through which other objects might travel.

Logically, it cannot travel through itself.

It can't emerge elsewhere in the galaxy, because it simply no longer exists as a planet.

 

[Bobatiel]

Someone care to explain to me how one Red Matter Blackhole transports you back in time to a location close to someone critical to the Timeline, while every subsequent Red Matter Blackhole just sucks you up?

Easy enough to speculate about. (But I really don't see the point in all this)

Spec 1) The first one was in a star that was going nova, the others were not.

Spec 2) The first one was a controlled process attempting a specific goal of non-destruction

Spec 3) Nero's use of it on Vulcan was for its destruction.

Spec 4) How do we know that there was not time travel involved in all 3 black holes (Romuan Nova, Planet Vulcan, Narada collision) If there was, where ever or when ever the planet Vulcan or the Narada show up, they've already been obliterated.

Spec 5) how do any of us know how red matter is prepared or deployed.

All these spcualtions are pointless. It's just a plot device.

Also, I don't understand "a location close to someone critical to the Timeline". How were the locations critical in any way?

 

[skiffy244]

I thought the whole time travel thing was the biggest plot hole. Nero went back in time. From that point onward, there were two parallel timelines, the Prime one and the nu one. So since Spock Primewas not thrown back in time as far as Nero was, he wouldn't have gone back far enough for the split to affect him. He would still be in the prime timeline. And if creating a new universe destroyed the old one, there would be no Spock Prime to travel back in time at all.

Thoughts?

 

[M'Sharak]

I thought the whole time travel thing was the biggest plot hole. Nero went back in time. From that point onward, there were two parallel timelines, the Prime one and the nu one. So since Spock Primewas not thrown back in time as far as Nero was, he wouldn't have gone back far enough for the split to affect him. He would still be in the prime timeline.

No, he would not. Since he traveled through the same black hole-induced conduit as Nero, he arrived in the altered timeline (the branching point of which was the moment of Nero's arrival in the past) but he arrived 25 years "downstream," at what are thought to be the same spatial coordinates near the border of Klingon space at which Nero arrived (shortly afterward destroying the Kelvin.)

And if creating a new universe destroyed the old one, there would be no Spock Prime to travel back in time at all.

Thoughts?

Creating the alternate timeline did not destroy the Prime. Both exist, running in parallel.

 

[Omega_Glory]

...You mean no one though to fire anything at the drill while it was drilling a hole in the planet's surface. Even if we figure out thatthat the Vulcans either had no weapons or were not sure to fire on the drill, once it starts hitting Earth they should have been shooting all sorts of stuff to try to destroy it.

That, and the fact that the guy destroys Vulcan, Spock and Kirk are arguing over where to go and what to do, but no one checked out where Nero was headed and figured he might try to do the same thing once he got there?

I think Nero kind of tells Pike that he will not only SAVE ROMULUS but will ensure that it lives free of the Federation (I am pretty sure he planned to take care of the Klingons as well). So he probably would have saved Romulus, but first things first, Revenge.

Im pretty sure any ships that were in a position to attack the drill were easily destroyed by the Narada before they could get close.

When Spock was manuevering to ram Nero's ship, they "fired everything" at him. That amounted to what, a dozen torpedos? When the Federation fleet arrived in Vulcan, they should have had at least one or two shots at the "barbed wire" above the drill platform. Given that the Enterprise herself took out all of the "fire everything" torpedos, it's non-sensical that a fleet couldn't get a shot into that platform or the cables holding it up.