Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[siskokid888]

^Seriously. The lousy moments pointed out here were not intentionally created to stick it to the fans - they sucked because of poor writing, bad ideas, egos, actor or network interference, etc. "Hollow Pursuits" was INTENTIONALLY created to mock the fans, and this intent makes it, in keeping with the thread, the "biggest insulting slap in the face".

 

[TeutonicNights]

Interesting, I never thought of that. But it makes sense.

 

[greenmystik]

I would have to say that Nemesis was a big slap in the face, mostly because they killed Data...for no reason. Really, what was the point of it???

Just my opinion.

PS: Intersting discussion this thread has brought about.

 

[JD]

Well, I think it was probably the old this is the end so we should kill someone idea.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Brent Spiner wanted to get killed off in Insurrection. He was told, sorry, we can't do it here. He asked again to be killed off in Nemesis (this time I think he co-wrote the script) so he got his wish.

 

[AOQ]

I don't know whether HP was specifically designed to mock Trek fans or whether that element came in later. In any case, the episode succeeds as a final product anyway, because Barclay emerges as a sympathetic character rather than a parody. It's not an episode about just mocking this guy who doesn't fit in, it's an exploration of who he is. (Actually, isn't there a Voyager episode with Barclay that reads much more like a parody of devoted fans?) And the main conflict emerges from the potential to use the Holodeck to demean/fetishize one's co-workers. I think that's an interesting and worthwhile story. (Unless of course a main character does the same thing at the end of a shitty romantic-comedy episode, in which we're apparently supposed to think it's somehow cute and not at all degrading to anyone involved.)

So yeah, "His Way" is my answer to the original question - there are technically worse episodes, but that's the one that I get angriest thinking about. And that's while constantly reminding myself not to go overboard with taking badness personally. Because it is true what people are saying: in the vast majority of cases, TV writers are not out to intentionally let you down or trying to spit in your face for being a fan. Really.

 

[exodus]

Alidar Jarok said:
Brent Spiner wanted to get killed off in Insurrection. He was told, sorry, we can't do it here. He asked again to be killed off in Nemesis (this time I think he co-wrote the script) so he got his wish.

What a douchbag.

Well I shouldn't be upset with Spiner, more like his idea. I knew he had an issues with himself looking older and he felt that age would show on Data, because Data doesn't age. However, it was meant to be the last fuckin' movie. We weren't going to ever see Data again anyway. Also if Spiner didn't want to play Data anymore, just say "No" when they ask. Is that so fuckin' hard? Stupid ass backwards idiot!

I need a drink!

 

[siskokid888]

^^My take on it is different. I felt Barclay was depicted as annoying, neuortic, "lives in the mom's basement type". No one likes him, everyone is mad at him, until he gives it up, or "gets a life", if you will. As I said, the fringe fans creep me out too, but this stereotyping of everyone that watches or enjoys Trek, especially from those most benefiting from the fans enjoyment of it, really got under my skin. I almost stopped watching TNG after that ep, then thought that Hollywood wouldn't be all that effected by me not watching something I enjoy, so I continued. Still irks me though.

 

[exodus]

siskokid888 said:
^^My take on it is different. I felt Barclay was depicted as annoying, neuortic, "lives in the mom's basement type". No one likes him, everyone is mad at him, until he gives it up, or "gets a life", if you will. As I said, the fringe fans creep me out too, but this stereotyping of everyone that watches or enjoys Trek, especially from those most benefiting from the fans enjoyment of it, really got under my skin. I almost stopped watching TNG after that ep, then thought that Hollywood wouldn't be all that effected by me not watching something I enjoy, so I continued. Still irks me though.

You really shouldn't take such things so personally. I think if you do, then they are talking about fans like you.

By getting mad at stuff like that, you're just giving them the upper hand. You make their fiction true.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ I must admit, I don't get how you're drawing the conclusion that Hollow Pursuits is poking fun at ALL people who watch Star Trek. Surely, if anything, it's a wry dig at the fringe element who's lives revolve around the show, to the detriment of their existence in the real world. I thought that was pretty much the crux of the episode. Barclay actually preferred, and found it easier to live in his fantasy existence than to live out his own real life. If anything, I think it's having a go at nutters like that bloke who decked out his whole house like an interior from a starship, and if that's the case, it's a fair point.

It's like saying that Symbiosis is having a go at EVERYONE who uses drugs, even prescription ones. Are we to take offence at that episode as well because occasionally I take a few paracetemol?

 

[AOQ]

siskokid888 said:
^^My take on it is different. I felt Barclay was depicted as annoying, neuortic, "lives in the mom's basement type". No one likes him, everyone is mad at him, until he gives it up, or "gets a life", if you will. As I said, the fringe fans creep me out too, but this stereotyping of everyone that watches or enjoys Trek, especially from those most benefiting from the fans enjoyment of it, really got under my skin.

Agreed with Angel that I don't see a reason to conclude that Barclay is supposed to represent all ST fans. The analogy only holds, if at all, for the fringe ones to whom it's more important than real life. His problem isn't that he enjoys his fantasies, it's that he's burying himself in them to the point where his actual life suffers. And also, although everyone seems to want to ignore it, the episode tells a very specific story about using the images of one's fellow officers for make-believe and masturbation. A fantasy life by itself is more the territory of shows like "It's Only A Paper Moon."

I'd disagree with your read on the character himself too. I say Reg is a figure of pity rather than contempt, and that the episode wants the viewer to hope that he can work his way out of his hole rather than to dislike him. Later Barclay-focused episodes take a similar approach.

Has the writer of "Hollow Pursuits" ever commented on the fan thing? I think if Barclay were intended to be a direct analogue to Trekkies, he might, say, make a guest appearance on one of the other series and use the Holodeck for self-insertion fanfic... oh, wait...

 

[Balthier the Great]

exodus said:

siskokid888 said:
While some good points are made here, and Trek has had more than its share of disappointments, I honestly don't think the creators that produced these lousy moments intentionally set out to say "fuck you' to the fans - lest we forget, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There is only one case, IMHO, that the people in the show set out to do that - the TNG episode "Hollow Pursuits". That ep is the most insulting thing done by TPTB in regard to Trek fandom. It reinforced every negative stereotype about Trek fans, and was done wholly with intent. That ep is the biggest slap in the face by the creators of Trek to its fans.

Ever been to a Trek Convention?

Ever see "Trekkies"?

Ever see how posters can take stuff said about Trek very personally?

Those are the people they are talking about and IMHO, they are right.

You don't see Star Wars fans bringing Lightsabers into court rooms talking about they're trying to promote "Star Wars values". You also don't see them getting together pretending they on a ship and acting out scenes in their living rooms. They also don't give a damn about what class of ship an X-Wing Fighter is either. Star Wars fans wouldn't call a woman in a catsuit inappropriate nor would they care if she was a ratings gimmick.

To be fair, Star Wars fans have an entire Religion. Some of the die-hards practice Jediism. When a movie affects you to that deep a level, it's not much different than a Trekkie wearing a uniform.

And don't get me started on the Anime freaks who cosplay and take years of Japanese lessons. They get excited for anything from Japan, and it's kinda weird.

Hard core fandom is hard core fandom. The only difference is the subject matter. I've seen hollow point, and it didn't really feel insulting. maybe it's just me though.

 

[siskokid888]

^Did "Star Wars" ever take a swipe at the fans, hard core or otherwise, on screen? Did Japanese Anime? As I pointed out, I'm as far removed from the "fringe" hard core fan as you can be, but if that's your gig, hey, its a free country. My point is that non-fans see ALL fans of Trek as the basement living dress up canon crazy type, and "Hollow Pursuits" plays into this stereotype, from the very people benefiting most from it. It doesn't affect me directly, or maybe even matter all that much, but I still think its bullshit. What if, during a football game, the home team put a message on the board that said "all you drunk assholes that paint your face and picnic in the parking lot and cheer incessently are real pains in the ass". How do you think that would go over?

 

[greenmystik]

I know I'm setting myself up here, but don't you guys think you're reading a bit much into all of this. I don't debate that some episodes had hidden meaning to all of them...but it sounds like some people think that every Barclay ep is a jab at the fans. Can't we just watch the eps and enjoy them without having to think "what are the really saying?"

Again...I know I just set myself up for some serious rebuttal's. Just wanted to put my two cents in though.

ps: be nice

 

[Sisu]

It's okay to have an obsession. We all have them, after all. It is when you lose the ability to interact in other circumstances that are a problem.

For instance, I am obsessive about work (I am a small business owner trying to make a profit...) I work in excess of 14 hours per day, and live above my workplace. But when I interact socially with my friends, I make sure that my work conversations are kept to a minimum.

I think Hollow Pursuits sums this up quite well. It wasn't Barclay's obsession with the holodeck that was a problem; it was how it affected the rest of your life. In Barclay's case, he couldn't have a normal life outside his obsession.

 

[Brolan]

I didn't see Barclay like that at all. I saw him as a tool to tell stories about the weaknesses of humans. Since the command crew was shown as such paragons of human virtue you couldn't tell stories about them getting holo-addiction, being scared, or showing up for work late all the time.

I liked Barclay because I could identify with him much more than the other crew members. I think there is a little Barclay in all of us

 

[Anwar]

I think that was sort of the point of Barclay, it was the writers trying to get around Roddenberry's "The crew have no flaws" mandate by focusing on someone who wasn't a regular. It worked quite well.

 

[poundpuppy29]

TATV was the biggest slap to me. My 2 favorite ST were TNG and ENT. I watched ENT religiously and that ep still pisses me off and I still get angry it was insulting and wrong.

 

[JD]

Honestly, I'd never really thought of Hollow Pursuits as being about Trek fans. I'd always thought of it as simply a story about addiction in general, and how it can affect the person with it. I guess I can see where you could intpret it as a comment on Trekkies, but I find it kinda hard to believe that TBP would actually be willing to insult the people who are making them money.

 

[exodus]

BalthierTheGreat said:

exodus said:

siskokid888 said:
While some good points are made here, and Trek has had more than its share of disappointments, I honestly don't think the creators that produced these lousy moments intentionally set out to say "fuck you' to the fans - lest we forget, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There is only one case, IMHO, that the people in the show set out to do that - the TNG episode "Hollow Pursuits". That ep is the most insulting thing done by TPTB in regard to Trek fandom. It reinforced every negative stereotype about Trek fans, and was done wholly with intent. That ep is the biggest slap in the face by the creators of Trek to its fans.

Ever been to a Trek Convention?

Ever see "Trekkies"?

Ever see how posters can take stuff said about Trek very personally?

Those are the people they are talking about and IMHO, they are right.

You don't see Star Wars fans bringing Lightsabers into court rooms talking about they're trying to promote "Star Wars values". You also don't see them getting together pretending they on a ship and acting out scenes in their living rooms. They also don't give a damn about what class of ship an X-Wing Fighter is either. Star Wars fans wouldn't call a woman in a catsuit inappropriate nor would they care if she was a ratings gimmick.

To be fair, Star Wars fans have an entire Religion. Some of the die-hards practice Jediism. When a movie affects you to that deep a level, it's not much different than a Trekkie wearing a uniform.

And don't get me started on the Anime freaks who cosplay and take years of Japanese lessons. They get excited for anything from Japan, and it's kinda weird.

Hard core fandom is hard core fandom. The only difference is the subject matter. I've seen hollow point, and it didn't really feel insulting. maybe it's just me though.

Ask the common man on the street if they know what "Jediism" is and see if they know. Then ask them what a "Trekkie" is.

What do you think the answer will be?