Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[Anwar]

I always thought that all Fed Starships had two classifications: Peacetime and Wartime ones (like how the original NCC 1701 was an exploration ship when exploring, but a Heavy Cruiser in battle situations). The GCS and Sovereign ships are Explorers ships in peacetime, meaning they can go extneded periods without Starbase support. But in combat situations they are both Battleships.

And yes, GCS can hold it up in fights. Look at the damage they take in the Dominion War episodes and they keep going (stuff that would've caused a breach in earlier GCS', so they must have fixed whatever flaws they have).

As for B5, I like it (aside from the horrible acting in certain cases and awful dialogue) but once someone called it "LOTR in space" I started liking it less as it stuck in my mind.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ The LOTR tag has always seemed a sloppy generalisation to me. LOTR is essentially a quest. B5 is for all intents and purposes static. The main thing they have in common is the theme of empire building, which is prevalent in much of Straczynski's work.

Some of Joe's dialogue is awful, but to be fair, nothing tops "Get this cheese to sickbay!"

 

[Anwar]

Ivanova's "I am you death" speech.

JMS, just because some thing look good on paper, does not mean they will SOUND good!

Honestly, if I were in that Earth captain's position I'd have ordered the fleet to open fire while she was monologuing like that.

LOTR is more than a quest, it's also to show us the entire world Tokien crafted (which is the true strength of LOTR) and how it's affected by the quest.

B5 is also a quest, it's a crusade to stop the Shadows and then both the Shadows and Vorlons, and then to fix up any other messes they left behind (Clark ruling Earth), ending with the survivors united together in a new bond.

Like how LOTR is a quest to stop Sauron, rectify any problems he's caused in their world (enthralling that King, getting rid of the Steward of Gondor, destroy the Ring) and how in the aftermath the humans, Elves and others are bonded by the experience.

 

[Angel4576]

Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander, daughter of Andrei and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth ... I am Death incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see. God sent me.

I'm fairly sure that the following was printed in jest....

Wellington, New Zealand - Babylon 5 fans have long felt they've been neglected and sometimes even persecuted. As a group they have a history of being very vocal whenever they think something is ripping off their beloved television show. From almost the second it
premiered there was an ongoing flame war between Babylon 5 fans and Deep Space 9 fans as to which show ripped off which. Since Babylon 5 has been off the air, and it's spinoff canceled, the rancor of the fans has died down. Until now.

"This is a complete and total rip off," screams out Babylon 5 fan James Gretous. "How can Peter Jackson expect to get away with something so blatant?!"

It's been half a year since the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers was released, but now the complaints are beginning to reach a crescendo pitch. They believe that Lord of the Rings has ripped off Babylon 5 in several instances. The one that is repeated on various message boards and chat sessions constantly is how Gandalf fell, died and came back at Khazad-dûm.

"That's when I first noticed how much these movies are ripping off Babylon 5," says Richard Thompson. "Back at the end of Season 3, Sheridan fell and died at Z'ha'dum. Z'ha'dum, Khazad-dûm, it's completely obvious. Jackson didn't even try to hide it. And look at the elves. Could they be any more Minbari like? They even have Arwen choosing to go mortal, as Delenn used the chrysalis to become part human. What next...Gandalf is revealed to be the great Elvish philosopher-warrior Velan from a thousand years back?"

Several message boards about Babylon 5 have been in an uproar over this. According to one moderator that wishes to be nameless there has been a huge boost in posts since Fellowship of the Ring came out. He also claims he has led several flame attacks on various Lord of the Rings message boards and chat rooms. The flame attacks consisted of multiple topics that viciously attack Jackson over the alleged plagiarism.

Babylon 5's usually outspoken creator, Joe Michael Straczynski, has remained oddly silent on this issue. Fans have clogged the Babylon 5 usenet forum, where Mr. Straczynski resides, with questions about this issue. The questions have recently turned into demands for a statement, but all Mr. Straczynski answered the demands with was this comment: "I personally have not seen the movies and cannot comment on if they plagiarized my work."

Peter Jackson was unavailable for comment.

There's a key theme that both B5 and LOTR share. That is the struggle for independence. Both show a state of childhood's end, with a younger race maturing to the point of being able to shake of the shackles of their overbearing predecessors. It highlights the transition from one era to the next.

LOTR facilitates this change via a traditional mythological quest. The crux of LOTR is to get Frodo and the ring to mount doom, thereby defeating Sauron and freeing the peoples of middle earth. The alliance has absolutely no bearing on the success of the quest other than to draw Sauron's focus from where they don't want it, ie. looking for Frodo.

B5's quest, if it has one, is a much more figurative affair. Despite appearances, neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows are purely evil. Both have rationalisations and perceived (in their minds) justifications for the actions and methods that they undertake. They're more akin to parents soliciting the favour of their children over each other in a game of oneupsmanship. The quest here for Sheridan is not a journey in terms of location, but instead of maturity. Only in uniting the younger races can he prove to the parents that their time is over. Time to move on. In LOTR, uniting the free peoples of middle earth was a byproduct of the quest. In B5, that WAS the means of facilitating the success of a less literal quest.

It's all a moot point though. Joe obviously took reference from LOTR (Amongst others, including The Silmarilion), he's admitted as such countless times. But, if you're going to reference anything, you may as well take from the best, and IMO, whereas LOTR is the greatest work of fantasy in print, B5 is the pinnacle of sci-fi/fantasy on the smallscreen.

 

[mattwitz]

okay wow, back pedal. The idea that they should have made TATV MORE like TNG and less like ENT confuses me. My biggest problem with the episode was that it was supposed to be the final episode of ENT, not some TNG episode. I thought it was insulting both to the fans of ENT and the actors who were in it. And the ending, the one exciting scene where Archer is going out to sign the federation charter, is ruined by Riker saying "end program" right at the climax. I wanted to throw the remote at the TV. I still get upset about it.

 

[commodore64]

* Kirk's death under a bridge in Generations
* Trip and T'Pol's relationship, based on drugs (an after school special went awry)
* Data's emotion chip, making him annoying
* Voyager's first episode where all conflict ended immediately in favor of more safe Trek

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Anwar said:
Ivanova's "I am you death" speech.

JMS, just because some thing look good on paper, does not mean they will SOUND good!

Honestly, if I were in that Earth captain's position I'd have ordered the fleet to open fire while she was monologuing like that.

That really was a horrible moment. IMO, though, Claudia Christian is partly at fault for that.

I actually love B5, but I think Claudia Christian, along with Pat Tallman and Zak Conoway are just bad actors.

One of my favorite "bad Claudia" moments is the first few moments of Season 4. G'Kar's delivering a (good) monologue about how Ivanova seems lost... then there's this shot of her walking through the halls all despondent... she's deliberatly drooping and trying to seem depressed. Just cracked me up at horrible it was.

BUt yeah it had some dopey sounding dialogue too.

I digress. Back to our regularly scheduled conversation.

 

[Forbin]

mattwitz said:
okay wow, back pedal. The idea that they should have made TATV MORE like TNG and less like ENT confuses me. My biggest problem with the episode was that it was supposed to be the final episode of ENT, not some TNG episode. I thought it was insulting both to the fans of ENT and the actors who were in it. And the ending, the one exciting scene where Archer is going out to sign the federation charter, is ruined by Riker saying "end program" right at the climax. I wanted to throw the remote at the TV. I still get upset about it.

TATV insulted the fans of Enterprise, the actors in Enterprise, the characters in Enterprise, the fans of TNG, the actors in TNG, the characters of TNG, the whole concept of Star Trek, good writers struggling to find work while B&B hack on, you, me, every other Trekkie/Trekker/Trekkist on the planet, and probably my dog too.

 

[unimatrix7]

Forbin said:
TATV insulted the fans of Enterprise,

Enterprise fans have found themselves on the receiving end of insults in almost every thread here since 2001.

the characters in Enterprise,

The series as a whole did a fine job of insulting its characters. What's one more episode?

fans of TNG,

I am a fan of TNG and do not feel insulted

the actors in TNG, the characters of TNG,

Yet there they are. Two of the stars of TNG, parading about the screen like they wanted to be there. I'm not sure they'd have taken the gig if they felt 'insulted.'

the whole concept of Star Trek,

Actually, I thought the little montage at the end was a nice idea. It sucked because it excluded approximately 50% of all televised Star Trek (ie, DS9 and Voyager), but it still an idea firmly rooted in the spirit of Trek.

good writers struggling to find work while B&B hack on, you, me, every other Trekkie/Trekker/Trekkist on the planet, and probably my dog too.

See, this is what I don't get. Why do Enterprise fans hate B&B so much? Because they ruined the finale? Fine...but how, then, can you adore Enterprise so much when it was created by them? It makes no sense.

 

[mattwitz]

Although the writing was not always up to par, I think the fans of Enterprise stuck with it even through some of the bad episodes because something about the show caught their attention.
As for the finale, I did like the montage (it excluded DS9 and Voyager because they didn't captain an Enterprise; not that I wouldn't have liked for them to be included)but I think one of the reasons people felt so insulted was not just the episode itself, but that B&B had been going on for months about how proud they were of the episode and how it was an "homage" and crap like that. And then to get TATV....

As for hating them, I personally don't hate them, they've had some great episodes but they were getting a little old in the tooth but seemed a little too uppity about being the darling writers of star trek.

 

[Kokomo]

"These are the voyages" basically came right out and said to me, "This is for watching for four years and expecting a good finale! Just for being so optimistic, here is your damn finale!... yes! it really is a simulation! Deal with it!" When I finished watching it, I couldn't help but feel like I had just had my pants pulled down in public or something

 

[Forbin]

unimatrix7 said:

good writers struggling to find work while B&B hack on, you, me, every other Trekkie/Trekker/Trekkist on the planet, and probably my dog too.

See, this is what I don't get. Why do Enterprise fans hate B&B so much? Because they ruined the finale? Fine...but how, then, can you adore Enterprise so much when it was created by them? It makes no sense.

Me? I'm no Enterprise fan. I hated the very fiber of Enterprise's being. I tried like hell in the beginning, but it did the opposite of win me over very quickly.

 

[siskokid888]

While some good points are made here, and Trek has had more than its share of disappointments, I honestly don't think the creators that produced these lousy moments intentionally set out to say "fuck you' to the fans - lest we forget, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There is only one case, IMHO, that the people in the show set out to do that - the TNG episode "Hollow Pursuits". That ep is the most insulting thing done by TPTB in regard to Trek fandom. It reinforced every negative stereotype about Trek fans, and was done wholly with intent. That ep is the biggest slap in the face by the creators of Trek to its fans.

 

[exodus]

siskokid888 said:
While some good points are made here, and Trek has had more than its share of disappointments, I honestly don't think the creators that produced these lousy moments intentionally set out to say "fuck you' to the fans - lest we forget, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There is only one case, IMHO, that the people in the show set out to do that - the TNG episode "Hollow Pursuits". That ep is the most insulting thing done by TPTB in regard to Trek fandom. It reinforced every negative stereotype about Trek fans, and was done wholly with intent. That ep is the biggest slap in the face by the creators of Trek to its fans.

Ever been to a Trek Convention?

Ever see "Trekkies"?

Ever see how posters can take stuff said about Trek very personally?

Those are the people they are talking about and IMHO, they are right.

You don't see Star Wars fans bringing Lightsabers into court rooms talking about they're trying to promote "Star Wars values". You also don't see them getting together pretending they on a ship and acting out scenes in their living rooms. They also don't give a damn about what class of ship an X-Wing Fighter is either. Star Wars fans wouldn't call a woman in a catsuit inappropriate nor would they care if she was a ratings gimmick.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Nemesis. I was angry when I left the theater. One of the few times I really felt I had wasted my time on Trek.
The Voyage Home just left me embarassed, but Nemesis really pissed me off.

 

[siskokid888]

^^Yea, they may be talking about the fringe fans, but there is no way to make that distiction, and ALL Trek fans are painted with that brush by the general public. This was Shatner's "get a life" taken to a vindictive extreme - Shatner said that as a joke - "Hollow Pursuits" made it an indictment.

 

[exodus]

siskokid888 said:
^^Yea, they may be talking about the fringe fans, but there is no way to make that distiction, and ALL Trek fans are painted with that brush by the general public. This was Shatner's "get a life" taken to a vindictive extreme - Shatner said that as a joke - "Hollow Pursuits" made it an indictment.

Maybe but it doesn't bother me.

It doesn't really bother me what someone that doesn't know me personally thinks of me or what I like. So I personally aren't the least bit insulted by "Hollow Pursuits".

Just having that mind set alone, I know that what's implied in that ep. doesn't apply to me.

 

[siskokid888]

^Point taken, but my feeling was "hey folks, we are the people that are buttering your bread, maybe you ought to back off, just a little". Look, I didn't lose sleep over it, but I saw it as insulting, especially coming from people that owed a lot of their success to the very people they were cutting down.

 

[exodus]

siskokid888 said:
^Point taken, but my feeling was "hey folks, we are the people that are buttering your bread, maybe you ought to back off, just a little". Look, I didn't lose sleep over it, but I saw it as insulting, especially coming from people that owed a lot of their success to the very people they were cutting down.

..and look where Trek is now. Most of the fan base has turned away from it & merchendise isn't selling as well as it once did.

Karma takes time but it does work.

 

[JD]

siskokid888 said:
While some good points are made here, and Trek has had more than its share of disappointments, I honestly don't think the creators that produced these lousy moments intentionally set out to say "fuck you' to the fans - lest we forget, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There is only one case, IMHO, that the people in the show set out to do that - the TNG episode "Hollow Pursuits". That ep is the most insulting thing done by TPTB in regard to Trek fandom. It reinforced every negative stereotype about Trek fans, and was done wholly with intent. That ep is the biggest slap in the face by the creators of Trek to its fans.

Seriously?