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Spoilers Beyond: The Swarm VS USS Vengeance

Anything with any megaton-size weapon could take out the swarm. Even pre-warp civilization, armed with only chemical-powered neutron-tipped missiles could blast Kraal armada into oblivion.

I rather doubt that. Big guns don't harm big starships in Trek; Krall's craft do harm big starships. Big guns level mountains in Trek; starships level mountains, too. Megatons probably would just tickle these small craft that can penetrate mountain-leveling starship hulls with ease.

the ship is not. See, that would only be a valid point of Yorktown's defenses ACTUALLY PREVAILED.

False. It suffices that Yorktown fared orders of magnitude better than should have been expected, meaning there were factors separating it from the Enterprise. This invalidates "our defenses" as applying to the UFP, and defines it as applying to NCC-1701 specifically.

it's like saying it takes pride of lions longer to eat an elephant than a zebra and then implying elephants are better evolved to fight lions. It doesn't work that way.

But it very specifically does: elephants are more or less invulnerable to lions because they have specific anti-lion defenses (not clever Federation-style ones but brute force ones) that makes it highly unlikely a pride of lions would bother to attack an elephant. Or a giraffe, for that matter. We can't tell for sure whether being an elephant or a giraffe is an adaptation against predation by big cats, but it achieves that very effect in practice.

Now, a pride a thousand lions strong might change that game. But that would be a completely different issue. Elephants can cope better with prides than zebras can. Yorktown can cope with swarms better than NCC-1701 can. Add overkill, and the goalposts are changed; the "better evolved" issue does not get contested.

Krall's superior because he has a whole hell of a lot of drones and, more importantly, because his attacks are TAILORED to defeat Starfleet defenses.

Umm, not. Krall is not in a position to tailor anything. He only controls Ancient assets in the sense of being able to tell them what to do; he cannot change anything about the nature of those assets except for micromanaging certain attack formations. And such micromanaging mattered not at all in the fight against the Enterprise, because that ship fell instantly; and also not at all in the fight against Yorktown, because that attack was going extremely poorly in relation, failing to achieve the desired penetration despite the much better numerical odds on Krall's side.

Starfleet could not have beaten him through sheer force alone because Krall already has overwhelming force and knows all of their weaknesses.

Krall is whittling away his single-planet force in a series of attacks against a galactic empire that can replenish its assets. His knowledge may be current, but his fighting skills are a century out of date. His advantage thus isn't remarkable qualitatively, and quantity isn't going to stay on his side indefinitely.

They were literally SECONDS from penetration when Franklin intervened.

Again, this establishes that the Yorktown was coping much better than it had any right to, were it equipped with what the Enterprise was in qualitative terms.

The fact that they had more firepower and more shield power delayed the inevitable, but it was DEFINITELY inevitable.

No disagreement there. This bears very little relevance to the fact that Starfleet wasn't qualitatively unable to cope with swarm attacks from the get-go. It was, as evidenced by the Yorktown fight. It just didn't guarantee victory, any more than the ability to build Panzerfausts would guarantee victory against a massive Soviet tank invasion - the point being that such defeat would not establish an inability to build Panzerfausts and cope with smaller tank invasions.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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They are clearly inferior. Their photon torpedoes seems to not carry any warheads at all) Either the Starfleet have real financial troubles and decided temporarely to disarm starships... or after "Into Darkness" incident someone decided that megaton-scale weapon should not be in hands of probably-disloyal individuals.
This implies that "megaton scale warheads" were EVER a real thing in the Star Trek universe. That isn't even the case in TOS, and is clearly not the case in any of the films or TNG era series. The best example by far is the Klingon torpedo in TUC that blew right through the saucer section: a megaton-scale device going off inside the saucer would have been a repeat of the Search for Spock saucer blast and sent the Enterprise tumbling into a death spiral over Khitomer. Instead, it just blows a big hole and lights up the dining room (for some reason).

It actually seems like photon torpedoes and other kinetic weapons are as effective as they are, not because of their explosive yields, but because of their efficacy in penetrating shields and armor and then detonating INSIDE the ship. That, again, would explain the point of Krall's attack: it's like hitting the Enterprise with a thousand torpedoes in a single second.

If you're assuming photon torpedoes have ANY comparison with modern-day thermonuclear devices, you're simply watching the wrong show. They don't, and never did, and at this point it's silly to assume they ever will.
 
Think of it this way: every one of Krall's drone ships is basically a photon torpedo, and Krall has THOUSANDS of them. The TOS Enterprise's shields were supposedly capable of deflecting up to 400 photon torpedo impacts, so all Krall had to do was to hit the Enterprise with 400 drones to completely overwhelm it. Which is exactly what he did.

A nice way of explaining away the nonsense that is "The Changeling": the heroes' remarks about the ship's ability to take hits refer to kinetic hits by warhead-less torpedoes... :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nope. The obvious countermeasure would be to maneuver one drone ship to intercept the warhead and then a dozen or so in close formation to surround it, while the rest of the swarm moves to a standoff distance of about 1km. The energy release would be absorbed only by the ships closest to it, which are then vaporized; the fireball diffuses harmelssly in the vacuum (inverse square law) and the swarm goes on like nothing happened.

I.e. basically the swarm could not attack any target that have any area-effect weapon) Exactly what I'm talking about)

All power of the swarm is based only on their ability to, literally, swarm the opponents, overcaming the defenses by sheer number in short time. But if swarm would disperse to avoid being wiped out by a single blast, it would be unable to mount the saturation attack. Simply because if swarmships would be rationally disperced, only a few of them would be able to attack simultaneously - and they would be whiped by phasers.

P.S. And, the problem is that even the old-fashioned W71 warhead could destroy unhardened target on the distance of about 40 km just by neutron and X-ray blast.

No, it's more like killing a battleship by hitting it repeatedly with bullets (which we've been doing since... well, forever). The fact that Krall's swarm ships all have shields of their own makes them that much more effective.

They have NO shields.

Because otherwise how could McCoy and Spock teleport aboard?

Think of it this way: every one of Krall's drone ships is basically a photon torpedo, and Krall has THOUSANDS of them. The TOS Enterprise's shields were supposedly capable of deflecting up to 400 photon torpedo impacts, so all Krall had to do was to hit the Enterprise with 400 drones to completely overwhelm it. Which is exactly what he did.

No. They aren't photon torpedoes. They are really stupid kinetic missiles - piloted kinetic missiles! - which aren't even been designed for combat. Actually, they are mining equipment (according to sources)
 
This implies that "megaton scale warheads" were EVER a real thing in the Star Trek universe.

According to all data, they are) The official technical manuals - canon manuals - described them as having about 1 kg of matter and antimatter, which would gave about 47 megaton-scale blast, primarly in X-ray and neutron emission. And in TNG and later series they were clearly described as megaton-scale weapon.
 
They have NO shields. Because otherwise how could McCoy and Spock teleport aboard?

There's no causal connection there, not really. Beaming through shields has seldom been a problem, and it never is a problem in the nuMovies: Nero has shields but cannot stop beaming, say.

What the Ancient craft undeniably have is the ability to penetrate starship hulls that are strong enough to pierce mountains. That's already formidable enough a defense to shrug off nukes in vacuum.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you're assuming photon torpedoes have ANY comparison with modern-day thermonuclear devices, you're simply watching the wrong show. They don't, and never did, and at this point it's silly to assume they ever will.

Sigh.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Photon_torpedo#Establishing_photon_torpedoes

Photon torpedoes were warp-capable tactical matter/antimatter weapons commonly deployed aboard starships and starbases by various organizations. Photon torpedoes, often abbreviated as "photons", were called Pu'DaH dak cha in Klingonese. (TNG: "The Arsenal of Freedom", etc.; ENT: "Sleeping Dogs")


I.e. clearly stated, that they are matter/antimatter weapon, which basically means that they are INCREDIBLY POWERFUL EXPLOSIVE CHARGES.

It actually seems like photon torpedoes and other kinetic weapons are as effective as they are, not because of their explosive yields, but because of their efficacy in penetrating shields and armor and then detonating INSIDE the ship. That, again, would explain the point of Krall's attack: it's like hitting the Enterprise with a thousand torpedoes in a single second.

It doesn't make any sence. Even the kinetic weapon on the substantional fraction of the speed of light became explosive - VERY powerfull explosive.

Frankly, it's much more simple to just consider Kraal attack as utterly stupid mistake of film crew.
 
What the Ancient craft undeniably have is the ability to penetrate starship hulls that are strong enough to pierce mountains. That's already formidable enough a defense to shrug off nukes in vacuum.

It means that they have really good inertial dumper fields. But it didn't means that they are protected from X-rays or neutron radiation. For mining equipment it make no sence: the mining machines aren't supposed to be stand against nuclear attacks during their work.
 
But it didn't means that they are protected from X-rays or neutron radiation.

They are warp-capable craft (it takes warp to get from Yorktown to Altamid and back), and that already places some minimum requirements on the ability to stop blueshifted radiation. I don't see any pressing reason to doubt their ability to withstand all aspects of a nuclear blast.

For mining equipment it make no sence:

Them being nothing but mining equipment indeed makes no sense: they are capable of interstellar travel at warp.

It's much more likely that they are indeed weapons, at least in addition to their other, unknown capabilities.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Guys, with all respect, it's just a Really Stupid Scene, made by mens who didn't understood anything at all about space warfare and who basically thought "ah, who cares? Modern kids are dumb enough, so we just put a lot of POW-WOW-BAM-BLAM! and 3D graphic, and they went ecstatic. Trekkies? Who are the Trekkies?"

Its no use trying to rationalize this "battle". It's as stupid as the attempt to destroy "Enterprise" by hitting it with broomstick.
 
Conversely, it may just be you aren't quite grasping how combat in all of Star Trek always works...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Them being nothing but mining equipment indeed makes no sense: they are capable of interstellar travel at warp.

With that I agree completely. And being unarmed also make no sence: if they could put warp drive on such small unit, why they couldn't put at least some distant weaponry?
 
It suffices that Yorktown fared orders of magnitude better than should have been expected
"What should have been expected" was that Yorktown wouldn't be able to repel Krall's attack without help. The rapid defeat of the defense satellites demonstrates that well enough. Yorktown holding out longer than Enterprise is more than adequately explained by it SIMPLY BEING LARGER. To be sure, it would have taken Krall a similar amount of time to destroy three dozen Constitution class starships, which again doesn't change the inadequacy of their weapons.

Whether he defeats you in 10 minutes or 40 minutes, a defeat is a defeat.

there were factors separating it from the Enterprise.
Size. Not much else.

But it very specifically does: elephants are more or less invulnerable to lions because they have specific anti-lion defenses
No they don't. They have SIZE. That's it, that's all. Groups of lions can and do take down elephants in the world, it's just a pain in the ass to do so because elephants are freaking big and it takes a lot of time and effort to do that.

Incidentally, this is the whole reason why wolves hunt in packs. A deer can easily outrun or out maneuver a single predator, but it can get boxed in and overwhelmed by a pack. This is the nature of Krall's tactics: it's scalable to just about any sized target, provided he can produce enough drones (which he probably can). The results are the same on any scale, because Starfleet's defenses aren't adapted to this kind of highly coordinated swarm tactics and, really, neither are anyone else's.

that makes it highly unlikely a pride of lions would bother to attack an elephant.
And yet they still do it, when easier kills aren't available. And they usually succeed.

Umm, not. Krall is not in a position to tailor anything.
Of course he is. He's been intercepting Starfleet traffic for years, analyzing their computers, their ships, their tactics, their systems. He is a FORMER Stafleet captain himself, and an experienced battlefield commander. He's even had time to personally study the commanders he's going up against; he's been reading Kirk's log, he knows the names and faces and the careers of the officers running Yorktown's defenses.

He's in a position to PERSONALLY TAUNT the gunners at Yorktown and call them out by name if he wants to. He knows everything about his enemy and Starfleet knows nothing about him.

And such micromanaging mattered not at all in the fight against the Enterprise, because that ship fell instantly
"Such micromanaging" was the REASON the ship fell so quickly: because Krall specifically directed attacks at its weapons and then shields (the deflector dish was their first target) and then cut the nacelles at their weakest points to prevent it from escaping. Everything Kirk tried to do, Krall quickly and precisely countered; he had planned the takedown of the Enterprise WEEKS in advance, and probably even had time to rehearse it.

Krall is whittling away his single-planet force in a series of attacks against a galactic empire that can replenish its assets. His knowledge may be current, but his fighting skills are a century out of date.
Incorrect. Apart from the fact that he has control of the MACHINERY that makes those drones in the first place, we know for a fact that he's been attacking other ships for decades to maintain his livestock. Jaylah also suggests that he and his "bees" have been roaming around the stars "death wishing" which suggests he doesn't just hunt in orbit of his own planet, and probably takes to raiding nearby worlds and shipping lanes on his side of the nebula. His battle tactics are FAR from out of date; he's had over a century to practice, and the attacks on Enterprise and Yorktown he's had MONTHS to plan in advance.

Again, this establishes that the Yorktown was coping much better than it had any right to
Again, a space station 16km across is going to last longer than a single starship 750m long. Even Deep Space Nine could temporarily off an entire Klingon fleet; Enterprise-D, not so much.

It has nothing to do with the quality of its defenses; it's simply bigger, and took more time to take down. Time which, thanks to Kirk, Krall did not have.

This bears very little relevance to the fact that Starfleet wasn't qualitatively unable to cope with swarm attacks from the get-go.
The movie is very EXPLICIT in the fact that Starfleet was not qualitatively able to cope with swarm attacks using conventional weapons. Spock outright SAYS this, and nothing that happens at Yorktown contradicts this; the station is simply bigger, and takes longer to chop through.

The film is also explicit in the fact that Starfleet was able to adapt a defense strategy that specifically and efficiently neutralized Krall's swarm tactics, and that this is basically standard operating procedure for Starfleet. USS Franklin wasn't qualitatively superior to the Enterprise -- do not even ATTEMPT to claim it was -- and yet the VHF signal from that ship turned Krall's entire formation into a glorified fireworks show.

When Yorktown followed suit, they annihilated them. That's just the facts, Sir: Stafleet didn't defeat Krall with phasers or photon torpedoes, it defeated him with the Beastie Boys and a radio signal. The proof, then, is in the pudding: Starfleet's qualitative advantage IS NOT in its weapons, but in its capacity to exploit its enemies weaknesses.

It just didn't guarantee victory, any more than the ability to build Panzerfausts would guarantee victory against a massive Soviet tank invasion
Indeed, defeat was pretty much gauranteed from the outset, it was just a matter of time.

The only thing that guaranteed victory was finding a countermeasure to Krall's swarm formations. If they had been able to do this in the FIRST encounter, even the Enterprise would have survived.
 
Conversely, it may just be you aren't quite grasping how combat in all of Star Trek always works...

Generally, I'm orienting on TOS, were the combat was shown realistically) I.e. two ships, firing at each other from hundreds of thousand of kilometers, being able to see each other only on screens.
 
And being basically immune to nukes. Trek has never been about "realistic space combat" (a concept that does not exist for real), and Beyond breaks no Trek rules, be they TOS or TNG or, heaven forbid, ENT.

Timo Saloniemi
 
When Yorktown followed suit, they annihilated them. That's just the facts, Sir: Stafleet didn't defeat Krall with phasers or photon torpedoes, it defeated him with the Beastie Boys and a radio signal. The proof, then, is in the pudding: Starfleet's qualitative advantage IS NOT in its weapons, but in its capacity to exploit its enemies weaknesses.

Seriously?

The ECM were known since Russo-Japanese war.

Another stupid plothole: the futuristic sensors and computers which are unable to analyse the signal, determine the acoustic modulation and implement jamming. I.e. they are worse than average late-XX century ECM system)
 
I.e. basically the swarm could not attack any target that have any area-effect weapon) Exactly what I'm talking about)
I just finished explaining that to you: an area-effect weapon could be neutralized just by sacrificing a couple of drones and moving the rest to a standoff distance. They apparently DID this against Yorktown station.

All power of the swarm is based only on their ability to, literally, swarm the opponents, overcaming the defenses by sheer number in short time. But if swarm would disperse to avoid being wiped out by a single blast, it would be unable to mount the saturation attack.
The dispersal of the swarm is irrelevant; they could still saturate you even if their minimum distance between drones was over 2km; it's not their closeness that's the problem, it's the fact that there's THOUSANDS of them and your weapons can only hit so many of them in any one attack.

Come to think of it, the swarm would probably be alot more effective if they dispersed more and attacked at higher velocities. Moving in tight formation, they attack almost like a single mass; moving dispersed, it's like being attacked by a hailstorm.

P.S. And, the problem is that even the old-fashioned W71 warhead could destroy unhardened target on the distance of about 40 km just by neutron and X-ray blast.
But not in space, where the inverse square law is all that really matters and where, more importantly, radiation is absorbed by any nearby solid object and re-emitted as kinetic energy and heat. With nothing to transmit it, the shockwave from a nuclear detonation dissipates harmlessly into space.

They have NO shields.

Because otherwise how could McCoy and Spock teleport aboard?
Same way they beamed aboard the Narada in Earth orbit.

Same way Marcus beamed Carol off the bridge even with their shields up.

No. They aren't photon torpedoes. They are really stupid kinetic missiles - piloted kinetic missiles! - which aren't even been designed for combat. Actually, they are mining equipment (according to sources)
I GAURANTEE you that if you attacked an aircraft carrier with 10,000 mining drills, you would be able to sink it.

That's the thing about swarm tactics: the individual units don't have to be tough for formidable, you just have to have to be able to throw them at your enemy faster than he can shoot them down. There are real world militaries whose entire defensive doctrine is based on this fact (Iran, for example), because they know that they will never have a technological advantage and so they go with superior numbers instead.
 
Guys, with all respect, it's just a Really Stupid Scene, made by mens who didn't understood anything at all about space warfare
This implies that YOU understand anything about space warfare. Nothing in your posts suggests you do. In particular you seem unaware of the existence of REAL WORLD space-based weaponry and the fact that all practical examples of it currently involve the use of both kinetic-kill vehicles AND swarm tactics as a countermeasure. IOW, it's considerably more realistic than anything we've actually seen BEFORE.

It's inconsistent with fandom's never-realized expectations of how Star Trek combat SHOULD work, but Star Trek has always been inconsistent with that and I'm forced to conclude the fault is in fandom, not the producers.

Its no use trying to rationalize this "battle". It's as stupid as the attempt to destroy "Enterprise" by hitting it with broomstick.
I suppose you would prefer they destroyed it by hitting it with a phase-shifted inverse tachyon pulse?
 
I just finished explaining that to you: an area-effect weapon could be neutralized just by sacrificing a couple of drones and moving the rest to a standoff distance. They apparently DID this against Yorktown station.

No. It could be neutralized by dispersion - but dispersion means no saturation.

The dispersal of the swarm is irrelevant; they could still saturate you even if their minimum distance between drones was over 2km; it's not their closeness that's the problem, it's the fact that there's THOUSANDS of them and your weapons can only hit so many of them in any one attack.

And now please describe me: how many drones would fit into the space around "Enterprise" if they would mantain 2 km dispersion? :)

If the drones carry any ranged weapon - yes, it would worked perfectly. But they are RAM drones. They need to make skin-to-skin contact with the target. And so we have the situation, where the dispersion mean no saturation.

Come to think of it, the swarm would probably be alot more effective if they dispersed more and attacked at higher velocities. Moving in tight formation, they attack almost like a single mass; moving dispersed, it's like being attacked by a hailstorm.

Basically yes. The problem is, that on higher relative velocities they would have much more destructiove force. I.e. they would simply blow "Enterprise" to pieces with a few blasts. The power of kinetic strikes)

That's the thing about swarm tactics: the individual units don't have to be tough for formidable, you just have to have to be able to throw them at your enemy faster than he can shoot them down. There are real world militaries whose entire defensive doctrine is based on this fact (Iran, for example), because they know that they will never have a technological advantage and so they go with superior numbers instead.

The problem is, that for such tactic to work, quite a lot of factors must be perfectly aligned. And "no area weapon" is most important, That's why the bombers stopped to use tight "battlebox" formations after Korean War: the anti-air nukes made such tactic the expensive suicide.
 
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